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'An' Historic or 'A' Historic Agreement????

  • 09-12-2009 3:51pm
    #1
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭


    So basically is the H counted as a consonant or a vowel..It's always minced about whenever Am/A Historic agreement is reached in Northern Ireland..

    Is there a rule?

    Which is correct 'An' Historic occasion or A Historic occasion 30 votes

    AN
    0% 0 votes
    A
    36% 11 votes
    Don't Know
    60% 18 votes
    Don't Give a Hoot, why am I looking at this thread even
    3% 1 vote


Comments

  • #2
    Eliot Rosewater
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,745 ✭✭✭Eliot Rosewater


    You actually picked a bad example, as the h in historic is sounded so its "a historic". If someone says "an historic" its their pronunciation of historic that is wrong.

    "honest" is a better example because the h is unsounded. Honest is pronounced "on ist." So its "an honest person".

    The golden rule is not that its "an" before vowels and "a" before a consonant but rather that its "an" before vowel sounds and "a" before consonant sounds.

    As said above, "honest" is an example of a consonant letter but a vowel sound. Historic should always be "a" unless your not pronouncing it properly. In which case gtf away from the literature forum :D:D

    http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/a-versus-an.aspx
    http://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/591/1


  • #3
    sceptre
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,608 ✭✭✭✭sceptre


    Moved to the English board from the Literature board:)


  • #4
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    Eliot Rosewater wrote: »
    You actually picked a bad example, as the h in historic is sounded so its "a historic". If someone says "an historic" its their pronunciation of historic that is wrong.

    Hmm I didn't really pick it randomly on a whim, so to say it's a bad example is moot... I remember both versions appeared on different news sections for a few days in 2006 after some peace agreement had been reached in the north (not fully sure of the exact details). Both versions were bandied about throughout following bulletins...(Needless to say I got no reply from TV3 and RTE when I emailed them)..

    I take your point Eliot that it works ok for 'good' examples like'honest' (also for 'hour') ,also the 'rule' works well for 'An Herbal Remedy (If you use the american/french e-rbal pronunciation) and A Herbal Remedy (if you go english her-bal pronouncing that breathy H)..

    However, I think the pronunciation of the 'h' in historic is deceptive and subjective though.. it could be argued the pronunciation is 'an' i-storic if you go for the gutteral french route. The 'n' in 'an' links nicely to the i (whos sound begins in the throat)..Say it a few times and the H will become silent giving way to the i vowel...is this bad pronunciation or just the way you perceive it?
    An Istoric
    An Istoric
    An Istoric

    On the other hand A historic sounds ok too..sounds a bit halting though as you have to stop for a millisecondbetween the 'A' and the H


    Didn't know there was any 'golden' rule about this, or any grammar point for that matter..

    Sorry about the wrong location posting...glad to have gotten tfa from literature..It was 'a'/'an' historic f***up (delete as appropriate):)


  • #5
    FlutterinBantam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    Surely you don't expect TV3 or RTE to be the harbingers of pronunciation excellence:eek:

    Surely not.

    Are you a recent immigrant to our shores?? :rolleyes:


  • #6
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    FlutterinBantam wrote: »
    Surely you don't expect TV3 or RTE to be the harbingers of pronunciation excellence:eek:

    Surely not.

    Hi FlutterBantam,,the main crux of my point was that both mixed their uses of 'an' and 'a' ,so.... even though they may not be harbingers of pronunciation excellence..they're going to be right at some stage if they use both forms willy nilly..maybe that was their plan...
    FlutterinBantam wrote: »
    Are you a recent immigrant to our shores?? :rolleyes:

    I might well be!!!and what of it if I am..., I think many non-Irish-nationals have a better knowledge of English grammatical structure than the savages in this fair isle...

    Thanks for voting by the way...


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  • #7
    The Raven.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,008 ✭✭✭The Raven.


    Armelodie wrote: »
    Didn't know there was any 'golden' rule about this, or any grammar point for that matter.

    There is. Eliot is correct.
    Eliot Rosewater wrote: »
    The golden rule is not that its "an" before vowels and "a" before a consonant but rather that its "an" before vowel sounds and "a" before consonant sounds.

    That is if one is speaking UK English. If one is speaking French, one wouldn’t use ‘a’ or ‘an’. One would use ‘un’ or ‘une’.

    I have referred to the use of ‘an’ before ‘historic’ already:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055470688


  • #8
    Caprisun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 50 ✭✭Caprisun


    Eliot - thanks for clearing that up. It's bugged me for ages when I'd hear it on Sky News


  • #9
    Eliot Rosewater
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,745 ✭✭✭Eliot Rosewater


    Armelodie wrote: »
    Hmm I didn't really pick it randomly on a whim, so to say it's a bad example is moot

    I realize that. I meant a bad example in terms of showing the exception the rule.
    Armelodie wrote: »
    However, I think the pronunciation of the 'h' in historic is deceptive and subjective though.. it could be argued the pronunciation is 'an' i-storic if you go for the gutteral french route.

    Thats very true. In fact if someone was pronouncing it "istoric" I think "an istoric" would be be better that "a istoric." However I still think "a historic" is the proper pronunciation all round. The historical society in Trinity College Dublin is called the "Hist," and pronounced the "hist" for example.

    It seems that when you are saying "a historic" it easier to pronounce the a as ay rather than ah.
    Armelodie wrote: »
    glad to have gotten tfa from literature..It was 'a'/'an' historic f***up (delete as appropriate):)

    :D I was only joking about the literature thing! Sorry if we got our wires crossed :pac:


  • #10
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    FAir enough ,Eliot, I take the point ...I reckon i'll go for the 'ay' historic pronunciation.. Stay peeled to TV3 and RTE for talks on An Historic budget


  • #11
    deman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,672 ✭✭✭deman


    Whoever thinks An Historic Event is correct is wrong.

    As said before, unless the H is a silent one like in Honest and Honour (when "AN" is used) "A" is used every other time.

    On the flipside of that, we use "A" with invisible but pronounced letters in words starting with a vowel, like "A" European, not "AN" European.


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  • #12
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    Hmm seems like the country's goin to the dogs so,,

    heard a radio ad for 'The Seafarer' which is on in Dublin..they called it..
    wait for this....

    "AN Hillarious Event"

    'An historic event' can sound ok but 'an hillarious event' is defo wrong


  • #13
    Caprisun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 50 ✭✭Caprisun


    deman wrote: »
    Whoever thinks An Historic Event is correct is wrong.

    On the flipside of that, we use "A" with invisible but pronounced letters in words starting with a vowel, like "A" European, not "AN" European.

    ooh interesting point.

    this is all great pint talk fodder


  • #14
    humberklog
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 10,668 Mod ✭✭✭✭humberklog


    Alphabetically you would have an A, an E, an I, an O but you'd really have to have a U. An U just doesn't work.


  • #15
    humberklog
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 10,668 Mod ✭✭✭✭humberklog


    A ukelele.
    A euginisist.
    A eureka moment, this golden rule is losing a bit of its lustre.


  • #16
    FlutterinBantam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    Tell that to Joooooooe Duffy

    He thinks we are all 'yooooman'


  • #17
    Amtmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    I tend to use this rather loosely in spoken English.
    Because of the way I speak - quickly! - I often say "an historic event", where I downplay (but do not omit) the h sound out of habit. In writing I always use 'a' rather than 'an', however.

    That said, I am a historian and I have read numerous history books and articles by other historians who do use 'an'. To me it's a bit similar to when people (wrongly) say that you can't start a sentence with 'And'. I generally ignore the naysayers and look to the professors of history. If they can use 'an', anyone can.


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