Are catholic countries more corrupt

SLUSK

Alot of the basket cases in Europe seem to be catholic countries, Italy, Spain and Ireland. The same thing in South America. Why is it that protestant countries seem to do better and have less corruption than catholic ones? Are catholics more willing to accept corruption in people than protestants are?

FTA69

Max Weber, a German sociologist, linked the rise of capitalism to the simultaneous rise of Protestantism and its corresponding work ethic. Put simply Prods were less concerned with the all-important salvation in the afterlife and believed that salvation could be realised on earth through hard work. As a consequence (and you're speaking in very general terms here) Protestants tended to be more business orientated and worked harder and longer hours e.g Swiss Calvinists, German and Dutch Lutherans or the Puritans in England. These people, Weber argued, formed the backbone of these emerging states (which was the beginning of the end for feudalism) and that the prevalent practices in these states were shaped by their Protestant origins.

That having been said, people like the Chinese view Christian Westerners in general today as lazy, decadent b*stards.

Rb

Was just about to mention Weber myself.

There's a huge difference in the cultures of asia and the Christian European countries though. If the leader of China appears on tv and tells everyone they need to work harder, they'll go do it. If Cowen tried it here we'd either be laughing at him, or we'd actively decrease productivity in protest of him having the gall of asking us to do something.

jimmmy

SLUSK wrote: »

Alot of the basket cases in Europe seem to be catholic countries, Italy, Spain and Ireland. The same thing in South America. Why is it that protestant countries seem to do better and have less corruption than catholic ones? Are catholics more willing to accept corruption in people than protestants are?

It could be easily argued that may have been the case the case a generation or two ago ....even looking at a map of Europe for example, it was the northern , Protestant ones which were less corrupt, had a different ethic, a different attitude towards hard work + fairness etc. Compare the Scandinavian countries, UK, Germany , Holland etc ( not to mention elsewhere in the world like the USA, Canada, Australia + New Zealand ) at the time with elsewhere. Nowadays I am not sure if it has anything to do with religion or not.

SLUSK

FTA69 wrote: »

Max Weber, a German sociologist, linked the rise of capitalism to the simultaneous rise of Protestantism and its corresponding work ethic. Put simply Prods were less concerned with the all-important salvation in the afterlife and believed that salvation could be realised on earth through hard work. As a consequence (and you're speaking in very general terms here) Protestants tended to be more business orientated and worked harder and longer hours e.g Swiss Calvinists, German and Dutch Lutherans or the Puritans in England. These people, Weber argued, formed the backbone of these emerging states (which was the beginning of the end for feudalism) and that the prevalent practices in these states were shaped by their Protestant origins.

That having been said, people like the Chinese view Christian Westerners in general today as lazy, decadent b*stards.

I always thought the irish had a very lazy work ethic compared to other countries I've been to.

P. Breathnach

I don't think it is helpful to conflate the questions of corruption and work ethic.

Yes, I believe that the Protestant ethos can contribute to the work ethic. I am less sure that its concomitants are all good -- people can be esteemed for what they have rather than what they are; the idea of accepting responsibility for the welfare of others can be diminished.

I haven't been to Japan. Is it a very protestant place?

SLUSK

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I don't think it is helpful to conflate the questions of corruption and work ethic.

Yes, I believe that the Protestant ethos can contribute to the work ethic. I am less sure that its concomitants are all good -- people can be esteemed for what they have rather than what they are; the idea of accepting responsibility for the welfare of others can be diminished.

I haven't been to Japan. Is it a very protestant place?

I believe Japan is one of the most westernized/americanized places in Asia...

jimmmy

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I am less sure that its concomitants are all good -- people can be esteemed for what they have rather than what they are; the idea of accepting responsibility for the welfare of others can be diminished.

If you want to start a discussion on its concomitants then I suggest that is done on a different thread, possibly in a different forum. Suffice to say I think us in Ireland of all people should not point the finger about " people can be esteemed for what they have rather than what they are; the idea of accepting responsibility for the welfare of others can be diminished"

Now, back to the thread. The OP asked " Why is it that protestant countries seem to do better and have less corruption than catholic ones? " Work ethic is one thing. What about political system, or possibly historically smaller families ?

FTA69

I always thought the irish had a very lazy work ethic compared to other countries I've been to.

We probably do now anyway, back in the day we were mad for the auld work, that having been said immigrants tend to work harder irregardless of nationality. Personally I find young Brits are dog lazy, even worse than us, and that's saying a lot.

PomBear

How a country is run has nothing to do with Religion! Most wars that are branded 'religious' have nothing to do with Religion. I'm not religious and most people in this country, the government aren't especially religious yet you're trying to blame corruption on catholism, the two are like chalk and cheese imo.

Fratton Fred

FTA69 wrote: »

As a consequence (and you're speaking in very general terms here) Protestants tended to be more business orientated and worked harder and longer hours

and then there's me.....:D

OP, most of europe and pretty much all of South America is Catholic, I'm not sure it is a good generalisation that you make.

France and Belgium are mainly Catholic and Iceland (I think) mainly protestant.

jimmmy

Fratton Fred wrote: »

and then there's me.....:D

OP, most of europe and pretty much all of South America is Catholic, I'm not sure it is a good generalisation that you make.

France and Belgium are mainly Catholic and Iceland (I think) mainly protestant.

Yes, and Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Northern Germany , Holland etc mostly protestant.

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

If you want to start a discussion on its concomitants then I suggest that is done on a different thread, possibly in a different forum. Suffice to say I think us in Ireland of all people should not point the finger about " people can be esteemed for what they have rather than what they are; the idea of accepting responsibility for the welfare of others can be diminished"

I see. Discuss the point I made, while suggesting that it is not properly made in this thread, or even in this forum.

Do you understand the idea of hypocrisy?

peasant

In very broad brush strokes ...

The basic understanding that all your failings can made good by going to confession and that you can get away with doing so repeatedly would certainly lend itself to a somewhat more liberal interpretation of the law.

In non-economical terms ..

Only catholic societies have a strong tradition of carnival. A period of mischief and excess ...and on Ash Wednesday the slate is wiped clean ...until next year.

Kev_ps3

Nonsense. Prod country's start all the wars, invade other country's and commit genocide. They are no one to admire.

FTA69

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Nonsense. Prod country's start all the wars, invade other country's and commit genocide. They are no one to admire.

Yeah like those Protestant imperialists in Spain and France. :rolleyes:

irish_bob

SLUSK wrote: »

Alot of the basket cases in Europe seem to be catholic countries, Italy, Spain and Ireland. The same thing in South America. Why is it that protestant countries seem to do better and have less corruption than catholic ones? Are catholics more willing to accept corruption in people than protestants are?

in a way yes , catholics have a less black and white view of the world than protestants , we tend to be more of a grey area when it comes to issues including corruption , as the kid in a bronx tale said , its great being a catholic , you just confess all the bad things you did once a month and the slates wiped clean

irish_bob

SLUSK wrote: »

I always thought the irish had a very lazy work ethic compared to other countries I've been to.

this is unfair , i believe us irish coupled the best of the anglo influenced work ethic and the catholic kind heartedness ( albeit sometimes superficial ) and warm personality and while up untill the past twenty years ago , we may have been a little too laid back , we were divils to work when we went abroad , this could of course be explained by the fact that most irish people are devils for money too

irish_bob

FTA69 wrote: »

We probably do now anyway, back in the day we were mad for the auld work, that having been said immigrants tend to work harder irregardless of nationality. Personally I find young Brits are dog lazy, even worse than us, and that's saying a lot.

the opposite is the case , irish people nowadays are much harder workers , it a stereotype this view that every old person in the country worked every hour that god sent

jackthekipper

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Nonsense. Prod country's start all the wars, invade other country's and commit genocide. They are no one to admire.

Wasn't Hitler Catholic? Anyway, it's amazing what you're views on transubstantiation can do to an economy.

FTA69

irish_bob wrote: »

the opposite is the case , irish people nowadays are much harder workers , it a stereotype this view that every old person in the country worked every hour that god sent

I don't know, we've certainly become more up our own holes about the sort of jobs we'd want to do anyway.

bmaxi

One of the main differences I've perceived, apart from liturgical, between Protestantism and Catholicism is the that Protestants were more likely to think for themselves and seek their own explanations. This probably stems from the lack of a "supreme leader" i.e. the Pope.
This was one of the results IMO, of Luther's insistence on the Bible being made available in the vernacular, until then, Christianity was mired in the ritual and superstition of Catholicism. Making the Bible available to the masses, along with the advent of the printing press meant that people were able to see for the first time what was actually written, rather than rely on the interpretation of the, not always well intentioned, clergy.
One downside of all this free thinking is the apparent weakness of faith among Protestants, probably due to the fact that ability to read and interpret the Bible allowed them to see the inconsistencies contained in it, unlike Catholics who sheepishly and I don't mean to be derogatory, followed obscure ritual.
It also seems to me that Catholic countries, with a few exceptions, tend to be poorer than Protestant countries again probably due to the "work ethic"

T runner

SLUSK wrote: »

I always thought the irish had a very lazy work ethic compared to other countries I've been to.

There is a (silent) majority of Irish people who are hard working.
The ones who complain about laziness tend to do so while sitting on their arse.

Then there are others who might have a bigoted viewpoint and the idea of Irish Catholics being lazy might suit their world view.

What angle are you coming from do you mind me asking?

population

peasant wrote: »

In non-economical terms ..

Only catholic societies have a strong tradition of carnival. A period of mischief and excess ...and on Ash Wednesday the slate is wiped clean ...until next year.

Are you referring to Carnival historically or modern day? I think modern day interpretations of Carnival are played out in the US (Burning Man et al) and Europe (Glastonbury etc), and it is not so much a catholic/prodestant thing, but there is definatley a divide in terms of creed and colour. Carnival tends to be for white middle class people who can afford both financially and socially a temporary period of reckless abandon

saol alainn

I don't think corruption in countries is related to religion. Is South American corruption any better/worse than corruption in Africa, for example? It's probably similar to the mafia, whether italian, russian or chinese.

peasant

Are you referring to Carnival historically or modern day?

The historical carnival ...people wearing mask and costumes, doing things they normally wouldn't.
Excess of drink, disregard of authority, sexual adventures, etc

Think Rio or New Orleans.

jackthekipper

peasant wrote: »

The historical carnival ...people wearing mask and costumes, doing things they normally wouldn't.
Excess of drink, disregard of authority, sexual adventures, etc

Think Rio or New Orleans.

Or Saint Ptricks day, after The Late Late show first aired of course, because noone done the sex before that.

TheCandystripes

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Nonsense. Prod country's start all the wars, invade other country's and commit genocide. They are no one to admire.

seriously you're easily the thickest gob****e i have ever seen. what age are you? i feel sorry for you:o

population

TheCandystripes wrote: »

seriously you're easily the thickest gob****e i have ever seen. what age are you? i feel sorry for you:o

I think you will find he is Sinn Fein years of age

starbelgrade

PomBear wrote: »

How a country is run has nothing to do with Religion! .

I would beg to differ - the Catholic Church in Ireland has, mostly in previous generations, a very big influence on it's congregations. They are a conservative, even right wing organisation, who encourage their followers to be so too.. that's why we didn't have divorce in this country for so long, why we don't have abortion & why we don't have same sex marraiges, or civil partnerships.

Basically, if you have a country that are devout to one religion in the majority, they will vote for parties & issues that represent their views, which will have a say in how the country is run.

irish_bob

bmaxi wrote: »

One of the main differences I've perceived, apart from liturgical, between Protestantism and Catholicism is the that Protestants were more likely to think for themselves and seek their own explanations. This probably stems from the lack of a "supreme leader" i.e. the Pope.
This was one of the results IMO, of Luther's insistence on the Bible being made available in the vernacular, until then, Christianity was mired in the ritual and superstition of Catholicism. Making the Bible available to the masses, along with the advent of the printing press meant that people were able to see for the first time what was actually written, rather than rely on the interpretation of the, not always well intentioned, clergy.
One downside of all this free thinking is the apparent weakness of faith among Protestants, probably due to the fact that ability to read and interpret the Bible allowed them to see the inconsistencies contained in it, unlike Catholics who sheepishly and I don't mean to be derogatory, followed obscure ritual.
It also seems to me that Catholic countries, with a few exceptions, tend to be poorer than Protestant countries again probably due to the "work ethic"

individualism is indeed largely a protestant invention , this individualism and refusal to be dictated to by the church i believe explains why protestant countries are on average wealthier , i dont believe that catholics nowadays are lazier though , perhaps they are less hurried in spain and italy than in germany though

irish_bob

starbelgrade wrote: »

I would beg to differ - the Catholic Church in Ireland has, mostly in previous generations, a very big influence on it's congregations. They are a conservative, even right wing organisation, who encourage their followers to be so too.. that's why we didn't have divorce in this country for so long, why we don't have abortion & why we don't have same sex marraiges, or civil partnerships.

Basically, if you have a country that are devout to one religion in the majority, they will vote for parties & issues that represent their views, which will have a say in how the country is run.

right wing and conservative are not the same thing IMO , the catholic church are socially conservative alright but they are left wing on economic matters , to me , right wing means liberal on economic matters

Dr Galen

irish_bob wrote: »

right wing and conservative are not the same thing IMO , the catholic church are socially conservative alright but they are left wing on economic matters , to me , right wing means liberal on economic matters

+1

i think this misconception comes about because of the Conservative Party, and people get muddled up with their definitions.

from my experience of the left side of the house, the tend to be more socially conservative

bmaxi

irish_bob wrote: »

individualism is indeed largely a protestant invention , this individualism and refusal to be dictated to by the church i believe explains why protestant countries are on average wealthier , i dont believe that catholics nowadays are lazier though , perhaps they are less hurried in spain and italy than in germany though

I doubt Catholics were ever lazier in the physical sense, just not as motivated.

ChocolateSauce

I'd say conservative countries tend to be more corrupt.

silverharp

Another way to look at it possibly is that the Reformation was itself an offshoot of technological and financial developments. If there was money to be made investing and trading then a new religion was required that dumped usury laws etc. and was more economical getting rid of feast days and the like. The tendancy maybe that countries that were more likely to take advantage of the new trading systems were likey to adopt Protestantism. Spain and Portugal at that point were the waning powers

starbelgrade

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

+1

i think this misconception comes about because of the Conservative Party, and people get muddled up with their definitions.

from my experience of the left side of the house, the tend to be more socially conservative

I have no misconceptions or misunderstanding of definitions - I said that the Church are a conservative & EVEN right wing organisation. By that I was referring to the fact that on issues such as abortion, same-sex marriage, and embryonic stem cell research, official Catholic positions stand solidly with the cultural right.

bmaxi

silverharp wrote: »

Another way to look at it possibly is that the Reformation was itself an offshoot of technological and financial developments. If there was money to be made investing and trading then a new religion was required that dumped usury laws etc. and was more economical getting rid of feast days and the like. The tendancy maybe that countries that were more likely to take advantage of the new trading systems were likey to adopt Protestantism. Spain and Portugal at that point were the waning powers

A bit too convenient a theory in my book. From hazy memory of my history, Luther and Zwingli, the prime movers in the Reformation, were simple men, concerned more with bringing the faith to the man in the street than with commerce. The Catholic church then was the Fianna Fáil of it's time, salvation only for the wealthy.
I don't follow your point about dumping usury laws, Protestantism was scripture based and the story of Jesus clearing the moneylenders would have been widely known.It was perceived, even in our own country, that Protestants are more honest in business. Subjective I know but it had to originate somewhere.

jmayo

P. Breathnach wrote: »

...
I haven't been to Japan. Is it a very protestant place?

The place is full of them.

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Nonsense. Prod country's start all the wars, invade other country's and commit genocide. They are no one to admire.

Wouldn't have anything to do with your view of Britain now would it :rolleyes:

FTA69 wrote: »

Yeah like those Protestant imperialists in Spain and France. :rolleyes:

Got there before me
Sure the Spanish were only spreading the word of God to all those heathen Indians :rolleyes:

jackthekipper wrote: »

Wasn't Hitler Catholic? Anyway, it's amazing what you're views on transubstantiation can do to an economy.

Yep 1/3 of the Waffen SS were Austrian Catholic and Hitler did start in the Catholic area of Southern Germany.
Sure wasn't the p[ope in the Hitler Youth

I think there definetly is a work ethic and a moral ethos difference between historically mainly protestant and mainly catholic countries.
Look at Scandanavia and northern Europe (Denamrk, Holland, Germany) versus southern Europe (Spain, Italy, Portugal).

Also looking at the way Canada and New Zealand are run, the Scottish protestant influence is very much evident to this day.
Two countries that did to a large extent manage to stay outside the credit bubble madness.
Then again the Spanish were pretty smart in protecting their banks :rolleyes:

Even if you compare the three Baltic states of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania.
Estonia would be most protestant I would guess and most Nordic/Germanic/Lutheran and the further south you go into Latvia and Lithuania, the more catholic.
Estonia would have been the most organised and properous with Lithuania being the least.
Of course somebody may come up with other reasons for this, but there is a marked difference in the three states.

TheCandystripes

Maby its to do with climate?

Fratton Fred

What about education?

in other Catholic countries, is it common for the church to provide such a large slice of education?

Generally, I would say that the Catholic church was more interested in teaching Caholicism than it was in educating people, educated people ask questions and tend not to make such leaps of faith as "Sure, Jesus could walk on water", or "Sure, it was only a dig out from some friends".

I'm not saying Catholic's are/were less educated, but maybe educated in a slightly different, maybe less ambitious, way?

TheCandystripes

yes and i think it shows, kids in sweden, denmark and britain seem more aware than irish kids.

LostinBlanch

A lot of good replies on here. If you're using Weber as an explanation then you should take into account the Protestant fear of not going to heaven. In very broad brush strokes, because of the different strains of Protestantism from Lutherans to Anglican etc. Basically the ones that believe they are predestined to get to heaven live in a fear of not getting to heaven. This would be seen as a result of a lack of faith i.e. only those who have faith and live their lives accordingly will get to heaven.

Committing a sin implies you're not living your life as if you'll get to heaven and could be seen as an indication of a lack of faith, so you won't get to heaven. Of course Catholics can go to confession and wipe the slate clean. So Catholics can be as corrupt as they like and still get into heaven once you've gone to confession to clean the slate. So taking that as your yardstick you could argue that sociologically Protestant societies had more fear of the consequences of corruption.

I'm sure others could put it better than I just have, but that's the broad outline of the argument.

silverharp

bmaxi wrote: »

A bit too convenient a theory in my book. From hazy memory of my history, Luther and Zwingli, the prime movers in the Reformation, were simple men, concerned more with bringing the faith to the man in the street than with commerce. The Catholic church then was the Fianna Fáil of it's time, salvation only for the wealthy.
I don't follow your point about dumping usury laws, Protestantism was scripture based and the story of Jesus clearing the moneylenders would have been widely known.It was perceived, even in our own country, that Protestants are more honest in business. Subjective I know but it had to originate somewhere.

I like the FF reference:D its complicated for sure. But if Luther had tried to peddle his wares in Spain at the time I doubt he would have got anywhere. You would have to compare the economic structures of a country like Spain versus say Holland , the 2 countries were just on different paths. The conculusion would be something along the lines that Spain being a more mature economy was more resistant to change. The up and coming countries had more incentive to dump the old ways. Another way of putting it would be if Luther had been around 300 years earlier would he have had the same effect, I doubt it?

hinault

FTA69 wrote: »

Max Weber, a German sociologist, linked the rise of capitalism to the simultaneous rise of Protestantism and its corresponding work ethic. Put simply Prods were less concerned with the all-important salvation in the afterlife and believed that salvation could be realised on earth through hard work. As a consequence (and you're speaking in very general terms here) Protestants tended to be more business orientated and worked harder and longer hours e.g Swiss Calvinists, German and Dutch Lutherans or the Puritans in England. These people, Weber argued, formed the backbone of these emerging states (which was the beginning of the end for feudalism) and that the prevalent practices in these states were shaped by their Protestant origins.

Max Weber may have a point in general terms.

I agree with the view expressed earlier that it is dangerous to conflate the issue of work ethic and ethnicity.

I worked for a German multinational company, based in this country.
I can tell you that we worked far harder and for longer than our fellow German colleague.

Shea O'Meara

SLUSK wrote: »

Alot of the basket cases in Europe seem to be catholic countries, Italy, Spain and Ireland. The same thing in South America. Why is it that protestant countries seem to do better and have less corruption than catholic ones? Are catholics more willing to accept corruption in people than protestants are?

No. The same can be said for any cutlure or belief system. Is China Corrupt, Cuba, Iran, Afganistan, The United States, Britian, (various to no religious beliefs)? In recent history, one could argue 'yes' quite easily.

SLUSK wrote: »

I always thought the irish had a very lazy work ethic compared to other countries I've been to.

I've worked abroad. I've been told by employers that they like to hire the Irish because they are 'good workers'. That's just my experience. There's a myriad of negative things one could post about other peoples.
Both of your posts come across as veiled insults to Irish Catholics, (I'm sure they're not meant to). Simply posing a slur and a stereotype as a question doesn't take away from the view being proposed.
It's difficult to substanciate (and let's face it, not very classy) any generalisation of an entire people, be it in a negative or positive light.

Anyone led by any religion has issues...that's my view, not going to burn anyone at the stake (something Catholics and Protestants have historically in common ) if they disagree.