A beginner beginning.

Deliverance XXV

I am nearly finished my first semester of year one of my BSc in IT and I seem to have more questions than answers opposed to when I first started.

The course itself seems to be revolved around being a IT support/specialist or Systems Analyst.
There are large programming elements but I question if this is enough for a career in programming.
I'm comparing this to a computer science course which seems to be based on total development.

I'm asking this as the more I get into programming the more I enjoy it but I'm wondering if there is a career in programming after this three year degree course ends?
When this course ends I will also be 28 years of age so would this be a massive career disadvantage compared to say- a 21yr old after finishing his/her comp. science degree?

Any opinions/discussions/help appreciated

Also, any System Analysts here?

NeverSayDie

There's a recent thread along similar lines here OP, which should be useful for you;
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=25

Re the degree, it doesn't sound like it would be a particular problem - as per a lot of posts in that thread, once you have a relevant-sounding degree, the specifics of it don't interest folks much in interviews. Experience (ideally commercial, but any kind of practical development experience helps) is everything.

The fact that you've already taken a liking to the programming aspects of your course bodes well. I'd suggest you pursue that on the side as the course progresses - build yourself some web apps, or write some games, or make some databases to track your stamp collection, or throw together an iPhone app to help score folks, or whatever area of development you find draws your interest. That'll help, bigtime.

Re the age thing, couldn't see that being a major factor, the (assumed) maturity is an advantage if anything, depending on what kind of experience you picked up in the meantime. The fact that you went and got a degree as a mature student is also going to help a bit I'd reckon. Anyone can drift into an IT course after their Leaving Cert, the fact that you went and took steps to sort one out after doing other stuff suggests at least some focus and initiative, all of which will appeal to folks hiring developers.
(Bear in mind I'm looking at that from the point of view of someone who's mainly interested in development/engineering, if you had bigger career ambitions to go senior in a hurry and move towards leadership and management roles, or just make big money, I guess it's a few years off the path, but still can't be much of a problem).

seamus

Deliverance XXV wrote: »

I am nearly finished my first semester of year one of my BSc in IT and I seem to have more questions than answers opposed to when I first started.

As you should have. Science is the constant pursuit of answers to questions. If an answer doesn't open up a whole new avenue filled with questions, it's probably not the right answer!

The course itself seems to be revolved around being a IT support/specialist or Systems Analyst.
There are large programming elements but I question if this is enough for a career in programming.
I'm comparing this to a computer science course which seems to be based on total development.

I'm asking this as the more I get into programming the more I enjoy it but I'm wondering if there is a career in programming after this three year degree course ends?

There are always careers in programming, but they can be tough to get into, and you really want to be able to display some previous work. I may be wrong, but I've always had the impression that pursuing programming will pigeonhole you as a programmer - you get little exposure to other areas of I.T. - but I suppose you can always move onto project management and so forth from there.

Programming is ridiculously helpful when attempting to understand systems. Programming, be it high-level Java applications or simple shell scripting in Unix, will expose you to the back end of the OS and show you exactly how the system and other programs handle I/O, security, graphics, etc etc. This makes it much easier to troubleshoot problems and come up with working solutions because you know what you're working with.

In addition, it gives you *actual* exposure to the technology that you'll be working with and how it operates at a low-level. Many BSc degrees focus on the theory, which while useful at a high-level is often not very useful in the real-world. That is, you can know at a high-level what an OS's architecture should be and how in general an OS speaks to its hardware, but when you're elbow-deep in troubleshooting an actual OS such as Windows, the theory won't be nearly as much use as bare experience.

If you're going down the Sys Admin/Systems Analyst route, programming experience will stand well to you. Programming in the most part is about knowing how to program in general. The first language you learn is the most difficult - most other languages are simple after that.

When this course ends I will also be 28 years of age so would this be a massive career disadvantage compared to say- a 21yr old after finishing his/her comp. science degree?

Makes no difference in my experience. A 28-year-old might be considered more tempered and stable than a 21-year-old by an employer.

mark renton

seamus wrote: »

A 28-year-old might be considered more tempered and stable than a 21-year-old by an employer.

Definitely

Any younger and the little head is telling the big head what to do

Sparks

Deliverance XXV wrote: »

When this course ends I will also be 28 years of age so would this be a massive career disadvantage compared to say- a 21yr old after finishing his/her comp. science degree?

Frankly, programmers who're that old tend to be better with interpersonal skills which makes them more useful for client-facing tasks. Which, for those not keeping track, is where the money comes from in the first place in most small-to-medium software companies in Ireland. So no, it's not a disadvantage, depending on where you try to go. (You may wind up being "the techie we take to the client meetings" though, which can be a drag if it's not your cup of tea).

Mind you, I can think of at least one or ten companies in Ireland where the business model involves hiring those 21-year-old graduates, treating them poorly, paying them even more poorly, and working them until they drop, all in the name of "experience" and then dumping them after 11 months to avoid the legal protections that come from being employed for a year. So in places like that, you'd be at a severe disadvantage, but so would anyone else with a bit of common sense and the self-esteem to act on it.

mark renton

I do systems ananlysis - started at 34 after doing vet nursing, got a CCNA and ended up on oracle

nothing to do with age, if you have common sense, can manage to get out of bed in the mornings, willing to work as and when needed, and can understand that its 90% user issues rather than system issues then youll do fine

Deliverance XXV

Cheers guys.
There's some great information there.

So far the course is based on Java with BlueJ and throwing us straight
into the middle of the code and I find it extremely interesting at the
moment even though it is a steep learning curve.

I do plan to do some extra work at home on the programming end including introducing myself to some more languages once I become more proficient in Java although at the moment I'm working 40+ hours a week so I'm just trying to free up some time first

seamus

Deliverance XXV wrote: »

I do plan to do some extra work at home on the programming end including introducing myself to some more languages once I become more proficient in Java although at the moment I'm working 40+ hours a week so I'm just trying to free up some time first

The best way to learn how to program is to have something to do, have something to write. Think of a small, everyday thing that you do on a computer which could be made simpler and then write a program to do it. The program doesn't have to be perfect, it doesn't have to be efficient it simply has to achieve what you set out to do. They key is getter familiar with the language and developing solutions on your own.

It can be hard to think of things, but even the smallest thing can be useful. For example, let's say you have a camera and every so often you have to copy the 500 or so photos you've taken recently, and copy them to your computer. It's simple enough if you know computers, but it could be simpler, right?

So write a program which will, with one click, take all the photos from your camera, stick them in a specified folder and clear the camera. Start small - first figure out how to connect to the camera (it's just a hard drive). Then figure out how to copy one file from the camera. Then figure out how to copy all the files from the camera, and so on until you have a small GUI which lets you specify a source, a destination and has a checkbox to indicate whether or not you should delete the images off the camera when you're done.

It's these kinds of small tasks which build up the experience and gets you familiar with the core concepts needed to write programs.

Exercises provided in text books are good, but don't give the same problem-solving experience as coming up with tasks or enhancements yourself.

Deliverance XXV

Cheers Seamus - That's some great advice which I will be taking on-board. I have several ideas for small apps/programs that will give me inspiration for bigger things I'm sure.