Book Burning

imme

When will book burning be introduced to the country?
I enjoy a good discussion as much as the next person.
But, book burning would seem to be a logical next step for a good number of posters here on Boards.

Scofflaw

imme wrote: »

When will book burning be introduced to the country?
I enjoy a good discussion as much as the next person.
But, book burning would seem to be a logical next step for a good number of posters here on Boards.

I think you might need to flesh that out a bit if you'd like it taken seriously.

cordially,
Scofflaw

imme

Scofflaw wrote: »

I think you might need to flesh that out a bit if you'd like it taken seriously.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Thanks for the warning Scofflaw.

I don't know whether I do or not want it to be taken seriously,
maybe I just wanted to get it off my chest.

There is a lot of nasty commentary being directed at PS workers, on here. People think it's a good thing to be directing anger and venom at PS workers. Have PS workers become a scapegoat?
Across almost every newspaper and media outlet maybe with the exception of the Irish Times PS-bashing has become commonplace.
Sure don't we know they all went to Newry on their day off striking, type of snide remarks.

Dr_Phil

imme wrote: »

There is a lot of nasty commentary being directed at PS workers, on here.

Yeah, we're nearly back to the age of wild and mindless crowds with torches running towards your house...

imme

Dr_Phil wrote: »

Yeah, we're nearly back to the age of wild and mindless crowds with torches running towards your house...

thanks Dr, I knew you'd understand me:D
Does anyone think that personal attacks on union leaders (Peter McLoone thread that was locked), wild accusations (Newry shopping expeditions), nasty comments have a place on Boards?

Dr_Phil

imme wrote: »

thanks Dr, I knew you'd understand me:D

My wife works in PS...

As for the witch hunt: Best example of how does the crowd psychology work.

Scofflaw

imme wrote: »

Thanks for the warning Scofflaw.

I don't know whether I do or not want it to be taken seriously,
maybe I just wanted to get it off my chest.

There is a lot of nasty commentary being directed at PS workers, on here. People think it's a good thing to be directing anger and venom at PS workers. Have PS workers become a scapegoat?
Across almost every newspaper and media outlet maybe with the exception of the Irish Times PS-bashing has become commonplace.
Sure don't we know they all went to Newry on their day off striking, type of snide remarks.

I'm still in the dark as to what kind of book-burning would follow on from PS-bashing, though - would we burn benchmarking reports, perhaps?

'Book-burning' is something I would consider to mean that the group (or its leaders) wish to eliminate other points of view entirely from existence in favour of the One Truth (TM). That people are angry at the response of public sector unions and workers to proposed cuts doesn't really fall under that sort of scenario.

Occasionally, you have to see that people's anger is genuine, rather than some sort of whipped-up frenzy of divide-and-rule rhetoric. Although the rhetoric is certainly about, and while Lenihan could make himself look like a hero by 'standing up to the unions', those are examples of people capitalising on the public mood rather than driving it.

The incumbent party of government have rolled over repeatedly in the last decade for public-sector wage demands that were publicly ridiculed at the time. Those who are opposed to the government doing so again are making as much noise as possible in an attempt to convince the government that such spinelessness is not acceptable now. In that sense, you're caught in the crossfire, and the most sensible thing that most PS workers could do is to keep quiet - not because people don't feel they should have an opinion, but because it's pretty rare for a PS worker to open their mouths without exacerbating the situation. Life in the PS, and life in the private sector, are not comparable right now.

Does anyone think that personal attacks on union leaders (Peter McLoone thread that was locked), wild accusations (Newry shopping expeditions), nasty comments have a place on Boards?

I've said it at greater length before, but it's not the job of boards to tell people what they can and can't think. People express their anger - our job is only to ensure that they do so with respect for their fellow posters, and to some extent a minimum of trash-talking. Anything else is essentially asking us to burn the books on your behalf.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Victor

imme wrote: »

PS

Playstation?

Playstation would love if there were no books.

imme

Scofflaw wrote: »

I'm still in the dark as to what kind of book-burning would follow on from PS-bashing, though - would we burn benchmarking reports, perhaps?(1)

'Book-burning' is something I would consider to mean that the group (or its leaders) wish to eliminate other points of view entirely from existence in favour of the One Truth (TM). That people are angry (2) at the response of public sector unions and workers to proposed cuts doesn't really fall under that sort of scenario.

Occasionally, you have to see that people's anger is genuine, rather than some sort of whipped-up frenzy of divide-and-rule rhetoric. Although the rhetoric is certainly about, and while Lenihan could make himself look like a hero by 'standing up to the unions', those are examples of people capitalising on the public mood rather than driving it. (3)

The incumbent party of government have rolled over repeatedly in the last decade for public-sector wage demands that were publicly ridiculed (4) at the time. Those who are opposed to the government doing so again are making as much noise as possible (5) in an attempt to convince the government that such spinelessness is not acceptable now. In that sense, you're caught in the crossfire (6) , and the most sensible thing that most PS workers could do is to keep quiet (7) - not because people don't feel they should have an opinion, but because it's pretty rare for a PS worker to open their mouths without exacerbating the situation(8). Life in the PS, and life in the private sector, are not comparable right now.(9)



I've said it at greater length before, but it's not the job of boards to tell people what they can and can't think. People express their anger (10) - our job is only to ensure that they do so with respect for their fellow posters, and to some extent a minimum of trash-talking. Anything else is essentially asking us to burn the books on your behalf.(11)

cordially,
Scofflaw

(1) in using the analogy of book burning I was speaking of how this situation might develop politically for Ireland. Not very likely but possible.
(2) when did this 'anger' as you call it start, when the Celtic Tiger stopped.
(3) the govt should be leading, I've no idea why they set about pre-budget negotiations with unions, I want the budget over already. I'm quite realistic in the PS paycuts needed and reforms required.
(4) who ridiculed them?, you mean someone was laughing at them?
Fine Gael said at the time that benchmarking was not justifiable, verifiable, I remember that Fine Gael were against benchmarking, not that they ridiculed it.
(5) where are the angry people making all this noise, on Boards, then they'd just be shouting to other equally angry people, preaching to the converted as it were. Does voicing an opinion on Boards or similar forum actually achieve anything.
(6) I don't believe I'm in a war situation. Granted the state of the public finances does worry me.
(7) So, PS workers should not have an opinion on matters that directly pertain to them???????
(8) All I can do is put my foot in it?
(9) Pardon all PS workers, they should know that they are lesser mortals, two legs good and all of that, eh?
(10) Anger? Should people not come on here to discuss things, give opinions. Why all the anger, where does it get one?
(11) There is a general anti-PS bias being propagated in a good portion of the media, with the Irish Times being an exception. In general terms the PS is portrayed as a gang of good for nothing leeches. Some on Boards seem to be sticking to this opinion.
Why do you not suggest that people who use statistics give backup to reference it. It would be a good lesson learned for the day.

Scofflaw

imme wrote: »

(1) in using the analogy of book burning I was speaking of how this situation might develop politically for Ireland. Not very likely but possible.

If I were you I'd plead justifiable hyperbole instead. The analogy doesn't actually follow.

imme wrote: »

(2) when did this 'anger' as you call it start, when the Celtic Tiger stopped.

When the money was seen to run out, yes.

imme wrote: »

(3) the govt should be leading, I've no idea why they set about pre-budget negotiations with unions, I want the budget over already. I'm quite realistic in the PS paycuts needed and reforms required.

I haven't said you weren't.

imme wrote: »

(4) who ridiculed them?, you mean someone was laughing at them?
Fine Gael said at the time that benchmarking was not justifiable, verifiable, I remember that Fine Gael were against benchmarking, not that they ridiculed it.

To quote the SBP at the time:

The latest crescendo of concern, across the business community, about the cost of the public servants' benchmarking deal is quite proper.Suggestions that the government should immediately sack thousands of civil servants and renege on the agreement may sound alarmist, but they reflect accurately the scale of the problem.

The cost of meeting the public service pay commitments in the Sustaining Progress social partnership agreement will be €2 billion.The knock-on effect of public pensions has also sent ashiverthoughtheprivatesector.

Benchmarking delivered an average pay rise of 9 per cent. This figure,which masks other pay rises in swathes of the public service.There was little or no basis for these increases. Crucially, there is no evidence that the public service found itself unable to compete in the job market - on the contrary, there was no shortage of applicants.

imme wrote: »

(5) where are the angry people making all this noise, on Boards, then they'd just be shouting to other equally angry people, preaching to the converted as it were. Does voicing an opinion on Boards or similar forum actually achieve anything.

Not necessarily, but there's no particular reason to claim it's not indicative of the mood of the wider public, given the size of the boards community. And was it not you who complained that PS-bashing was rife everywhere you looked? Are you claiming it's all smoke and mirrors?

imme wrote: »

(6) I don't believe I'm in a war situation. Granted the state of the public finances does worry me.

You're caught in a dispute between the public and the government.

imme wrote: »

(7) So, PS workers should not have an opinion on matters that directly pertain to them???????

You should try reading to the end of the sentence - "not because people don't feel they should have an opinion". I don't think it could be clearer.

imme wrote: »

(8) All I can do is put my foot in it?
(9) Pardon all PS workers, they should know that they are lesser mortals, two legs good and all of that, eh?

If you're going to take "lesser mortals" from "conditions are not comparable", then you're clearly unwilling to engage in fairly basic comprehension of what I've posted. I can't stop you offending yourself, but don't try to pretend your offence has a real basis in my comments.

imme wrote: »

(10) Anger? Should people not come on here to discuss things, give opinions. Why all the anger, where does it get one?

People feel it, just as they might feel any other emotion. I don't think anyone suggests it gets one anywhere, but that doesn't mean it isn't there.

imme wrote: »

(11) There is a general anti-PS bias being propagated in a good portion of the media, with the Irish Times being an exception. In general terms the PS is portrayed as a gang of good for nothing leeches. Some on Boards seem to be sticking to this opinion.

Which, to make the point again, they're entitled to. It's up to you to persuade them out of it, not me.

imme wrote: »

Why do you not suggest that people who use statistics give backup to reference it. It would be a good lesson learned for the day.

I do indeed suggest such things - further, I'll go and get the statistics myself. Again, though, I'm not here specifically to hold your hand.

What you're saying, as far as I can see, is that the PS-bashing is politically motivated, and doesn't reflect the 'true' feelings of the Irish public - they've been 'fooled' into believing the PS are the problem. What I'm saying is that you're wrong - you're codding yourself. People are angry with the behaviour of the PS, and that anger is reflected both here and in the media. ISME didn't decide to threaten a tax strike over nothing at all, or without any input, and posters here aren't shills pushing a government-mandated fiction. I am personally irritated with the behaviour of the PS and particularly the subset of it whose views are currently represented by the unions, and I can assure you that that irritation is 100% my own - and that your inability to comprehend it is, as I said, exacerbating that irritation, as has the attitude largely adopted by PS posters here.

regards,
Scofflaw

nesf

imme wrote: »

Does anyone think that personal attacks on union leaders (Peter McLoone thread that was locked), wild accusations (Newry shopping expeditions), nasty comments have a place on Boards?

Eh, wild accusations? People were quoting newspaper reports and the more credible broadsheets at that. You may not like these reports, similar to how I may not like some of the nonsense that is dished out as "Analysis" in these papers but it doesn't make it any less real.

I think some posters have turned "some Public Sector workers appeared to go shopping in Newry for the day" into "all Public Sector workers will use strike days as shopping trips" and this is laughable but it doesn't mean there weren't credible reports of the former last time there was a strike!

prinz

nesf wrote: »

Eh, wild accusations? People were quoting newspaper reports and the more credible broadsheets at that.

The newspaper report was a bit of a wild accusation. Fodder to the mob who ate it up. Gutter journalism. It wasn't presented as two events which may have been linked, it was presented as two events which were intrinsically linked, it was presented as 'public sector workers on strike, tailbacks in Newry'. Ta Da! Suddenly you've got yourself 5 threads on boards.

Dannyboy83

imme wrote:

When will book burning be introduced to the country?
I enjoy a good discussion as much as the next person.
But, book burning would seem to be a logical next step for a good number of posters here on Boards.

I think this is Godwin's law territory.

Riskymove

imme wrote: »

thanks Dr, I knew you'd understand me:D
Does anyone think that personal attacks on union leaders (Peter McLoone thread that was locked), wild accusations (Newry shopping expeditions), nasty comments have a place on Boards?

tbh I did wonder about how a thread on personal views of Liam Doran was relevant to the Irish economy forum...

People feel it, just as they might feel any other emotion. I don't think anyone suggests it gets one anywhere, but that doesn't mean it isn't there.

I think this is the key frankly

we are all coming out of an incredible boom period which may have taken for granted; the cliche about a generation not knowing what bad times are like is over.

Its perfectly understandable that people get angry over it....losing a job or the fear of losing it...not being able to make ends meet

certain sectors of the private sector were hit most quickly and hard and others have since been affected

there is no doubt underneath it all we are all human, and I think human nature when fearful or under pressure can result in turning your ire on anyone you think is not also being put under these pressures, be it public servants (secure overpaid incompetents whose job we could do in an instant) or people on welfare (scrounging wasters)

The reality is that a lot of those people are under the same pressures but people just cant let themselves see it, such is their ire and frustration

BlaasForRafa

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I think this is Godwin's law territory.

Nobody's said "well at least the public sector haven't killed 6 million jews" yet but I know what you mean.

Some of the PS posters here adopt this "why me, why me" attitude, yet they were fine with taking huge wage increases during benchmarking but won't wise up that the country is rocketing toward the poorhouse and the public sector pay bill is a large factor in that.

Riskymove

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Nobody's said "well at least the public sector haven't killed 6 million jews" yet but I know what you mean.

lol, actually I think he had the public servants in mind for the role of the Jews

gandalf

Anti-PS Bias - Have you actually considered that media are reflecting the opinions of the majority of taxpayers in the country?

Benchmarking - The impression we were all given is that in return for increases the PS would modernise and implement efficiencies. Based on last Fridays outbursts from the Trade Unionists this never happened. What is needed now is to drive those efficiencies and ensure the PS is servicing their customers properly which are the tax payers in this country. They need to neuter the unions if they continue to hold onto their precious bargaining chip.

Responsibility - Based on last nights Primetime programme no one seems to be held responsible when things go wrong or do not work in the PS. If fraud was uncovered in a Private Organisation to the scale it was revealed last night people would have lost jobs and from the top right down to the bottom.

Book Burning - If the books being burnt are the current work practices in the PS then I will help build the fire. Replace them with modern, efficient practices that embrace change as a standard part of the culture and reaffirm the PS as a service to all the taxpayers of this country.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

imme

Scofflaw wrote: »

When the money was seen to run out, yes. (1)



I haven't said you weren't.



To quote the SBP at the time(2):





Not necessarily, but there's no particular reason to claim it's not indicative of the mood of the wider public, given the size of the boards community(3). And was it not you who complained that PS-bashing was rife everywhere you looked? Are you claiming it's all smoke and mirrors?



You're caught in a dispute between the public and the government.(4)


People feel it, just as they might feel any other emotion. I don't think anyone suggests it gets one anywhere, but that doesn't mean it isn't there. (5)



Which, to make the point again, they're entitled to. It's up to you to persuade them out of it, not me.(6)



I do indeed suggest such things - further, I'll go and get the statistics myself. Again, though, I'm not here specifically to hold your hand.(7)

What you're saying, as far as I can see(8), is that the PS-bashing is politically motivated, and doesn't reflect the 'true' feelings of the Irish public - they've been 'fooled' into believing the PS are the problem. What I'm saying is that you're wrong - you're codding yourself. People are angry with the behaviour of the PS, and that anger is reflected both here and in the media. ISME didn't decide to threaten a tax strike over nothing at all, or without any input, and posters here aren't shills pushing a government-mandated fiction. I am personally irritated with the behaviour of the PS and particularly the subset (9) of it whose views are currently represented by the unions(10), and I can assure you that that irritation is 100% my own - and that your inability to comprehend it is, as I said, exacerbating that irritation(11), as has the attitude largely adopted by PS posters here(12).

regards,
Scofflaw

(1) so there was no issue with the PS while the Tiger was in full swing, now as you say the money is seen to have run out. Should standards/service delivery not be constant considerations of 'angry' people in society.
(2) have you got a date for that SBP article, from reading it it seems to have been written after Benchmarking was over. Also, you said Benchmarking was ridiculed at the time. I don't see how one article from a newspaper equates to ridicule. I like the SBP, I think it's a quality newspaper and regard it as a valuable to the newsstands.
Have you got an actual example of the ridicule to which Benchmarking was subjected at the time.
(3) Do you know the opinions of all Boards readers/posters. Not all readers post, so I don't know how you can guess as to the general feeling, which you feel Boards reflects of society in general.
(4) How am I caught between the government and the public. I am a member of the public also. I want responsible government, honest bankers, personal responsibility, honest accountants......
I am also a taxpayer, a PRSI contributor, I pay VAT. I am a responsible citizen, who is entitled to an opinion, you mightn't like my opinion, but hey!
You said before that Boards welcomes all types of opinions and doesn't seek to determine the direction of a thread.
(5) Do the posts on Boards reflect the full extent of opinion, it might be argued that it reflects the opinions of people who bother to take the time, people who articulate an opinion. Does Boards welcome opinions at variance with the 'feeling of anger on Boards that is expressed on the Boards and reflects the Boards community' as you say? Maybe you know how many people log on and read, how many post. Or maybe DeVore might know.
(6) Everybody's entitled to their opinion, very good. Is everyone allowed to articulate their opinion, even if it's at odds with Mods/the Boards Community/anger of the public. I agree that you as a Moderator should not be seeking to persuade people of anything. Moderators generally don't get involved in argument/discussion, well that's my experience of other sites anyway. Boards might be different? Moderators should be impartial, no?
(7) I did not ask you to hold my hand, what do you mean by this? Did I ask you to provide stats? I suggested that posters should where possible give sources etc for stats which they use in argument.
(8) Thanks for telling me what I'm trying to say.
(9) what behaviour are you referring to? What/Who is a subset of the PS?
(10) who?
(11) You're irritated, qed I'm not entitled to express an opinion?
(12) How do you know who are PS posters and who aren't? Are only non-PS related 'angry' people allowed have an opinion, express an opinion on here. I said before in this thread or 'We Won...' thread that I am quite a realtistic person, I realise the position of the public finances. I understand the need for cuts, reform. I am ready for a pay cut.


You said to me that couldn't seek to direct the flow of a discussion/thread, yet you say to me that you're irritated...., does this mean that opnions at variance with your opinion are not allowed?

nesf

prinz wrote: »

The newspaper report was a bit of a wild accusation. Fodder to the mob who ate it up. Gutter journalism. It wasn't presented as two events which may have been linked, it was presented as two events which were intrinsically linked, it was presented as 'public sector workers on strike, tailbacks in Newry'. Ta Da! Suddenly you've got yourself 5 threads on boards.

What evidence is there that it was a wild accusation? Gutter journalism? I mean, do you think there wasn't a single public servant who went to Newry that day? Seriously?

imme

nesf wrote: »

What evidence is there that it was a wild accusation? Gutter journalism? I mean, do you think there wasn't a single public servant who went to Newry that day? Seriously?

News reports, media reports, talk-show drivel was full of PS workers besieging Newry. What would be wrong if some PS workers went to Newry. Some that weren't providing essential services (Fire, Gardai, Nurses....) demonstrated outside their places of employment. Some more stayed at home to mind children etc. Schools were off that day if you remember, as teachers were also striking.
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/we-cant-afford--consensus-anymore-1965632.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/8378089.stm

Hillel

Scofflaw wrote: »

What you're saying, as far as I can see, is that the PS-bashing is politically motivated, and doesn't reflect the 'true' feelings of the Irish public - they've been 'fooled' into believing the PS are the problem. What I'm saying is that you're wrong - you're codding yourself. People are angry with the behaviour of the PS, and that anger is reflected both here and in the media. ISME didn't decide to threaten a tax strike over nothing at all, or without any input, and posters here aren't shills pushing a government-mandated fiction. I am personally irritated with the behaviour of the PS and particularly the subset of it whose views are currently represented by the unions, and I can assure you that that irritation is 100% my own - and that your inability to comprehend it is, as I said, exacerbating that irritation, as has the attitude largely adopted by PS posters here.

regards,
Scofflaw

I share your irritation and agree with your position above, with one exception. I consider the majority of anti-PS comments on Boards as fair comment and not PS bashing.

Hillel

imme wrote: »

What would be wrong if some PS workers went to Newry.

You think its OK for Public Servants, paid by the state, to go shopping in Newry to avoid paying Irish tax and Irish duty? Says it all! :mad:

starbelgrade

Hillel wrote: »

You think its OK for Public Servants, paid by the state, to go shopping in Newry to avoid paying Irish tax and Irish duty? Says it all! :mad:

They have as much right to shopping anywhere in the EU & pay the taxes / duty in whichever state as anyone else, never mind Newry.

Now, whether or not it's acceptable to use a strike day to go shopping is a question that maybe should be asked. I'm not saying that it should be, but personally, I don't really give a toss.

The presumption though, that every PS worker would find Newry the most conveniant place to go shopping in the North however, is a fairly daft one.

nesf

imme wrote: »

What would be wrong if some PS workers went to Newry.

Not much tbh. What I find annoying is the attempts by the unions etc to deny that any public servants went shopping for the day. Honestly, if I was in those public servant's shoes I'd have done something similar, hoping to avoid the normal bad traffic on weekends.

The annoying part is unions etc denying reality and trying to make out that PS workers were manning pickets all day when quite frankly most weren't. The issue is that attempt to portray the day as one of mass unity and mass demonstrations when many workers simply treated it as a day off (which is exactly what I would have done to be honest).

imme

Hillel wrote: »

You think its OK for Public Servants, paid by the state, to go shopping in Newry to avoid paying Irish tax and Irish duty? Says it all! :mad:

eh?, what does it say?
Are you saying that PS workers aren't allowed, shouldn't be allowed to travel to NI to shop etc. Would you extend this measure to all Irish citizens. Would you exclude NI inhabitants from travelling south.
Are you going to make a list of shops in the Republic that PS workers should shop in, none of those Aldi's or Lidl's mind you, they're foreign don't you know. Or Tesco, owned by our neighbours, what does that leave, Dunnes Stores, Superquinn, Super Valu.....
Your comment about PS workers 'avoiding' tax and duty reminds me of the clip being played on TV a lot at present. It is of our esteemed (current!) Minister for Finance Brian Lenihan imploring the general citizenry to observe 'patriotic action' when he signed off on his first budget. Did all stakeholders engage in 'patriotic duty' to get us to where we are, the Bankers, the politicians when they were planning for our sustainable economy, the 'evil' PS workers.

imme

nesf wrote: »

Not much tbh. What I find annoying is the attempts by the unions etc to deny that any public servants went shopping for the day. Honestly, if I was in those public servant's shoes I'd have done something similar, hoping to avoid the normal bad traffic on weekends.

The annoying part is unions etc denying reality and trying to make out that PS workers were manning pickets all day when quite frankly most weren't. The issue is that attempt to portray the day as one of mass unity and mass demonstrations when many workers simply treated it as a day off (which is exactly what I would have done to be honest).

you're making a big issue of the issue that maybe some PS workers went to NI for some shopping. Schools were also off that day, did any parents with kids go to NI, possibly PS workers, possibly not. What is the issue here.
"Attempts by unions..." What is wrong if a union attempts to speak on their behalf and question a misconception in their eyes.

Did you see PS workers on pickets in reality or on the TV, do you believe unions were saying that their members were on picket duty all day when in reality they had slipped off to NI. Were cardboard cut-outs employed to give the impression that PS workers were striking.

The unions don't speak for all PS workers you know. Not all PS workers are union members.
Here's a bit from www.eurofound.europa.eu that quotes CSO figures relating to union densities among PS workers: "Therefore, 51.9% of all union members are now employed in the public sector."

nesf

imme wrote: »

you're making a big issue of the issue that maybe some PS workers went to NI for some shopping. Schools were also off that day, did any parents with kids go to NI, possibly PS workers, possibly not. What is the issue here.
"Attempts by unions..." What is wrong if a union attempts to speak on their behalf and question a misconception in their eyes.

Did you see PS workers on pickets in reality or on the TV, do you believe unions were saying that their members were on picket duty all day when in reality they had slipped off to NI. Were cardboard cut-outs employed to give the impression that PS workers were striking.

The unions don't speak for all PS workers you know. Not all PS workers are union members.
Here's a bit from www.eurofound.europa.eu that quotes CSO figures relating to union densities among PS workers: "Therefore, 51.9% of all union members are now employed in the public sector."

One of the main Impact guys was on the 6.1 News saying that he "didn't accept that any PS workers went shopping in Newry" as well as going on about how many were visible picketing all day in Dublin. And my annoyance is not directed at PS workers but at union representatives, I don't equate the two unlike some people on here.

I love how you've twisted what I said beyond any recognition to what I actually typed though.

prinz

nesf wrote: »

The annoying part is unions etc denying reality and trying to make out that PS workers were manning pickets all day when quite frankly most weren't.

Most weren't manning pickets all day because the pickets were organised on a rota basis. Therefore if some picketed for a few hours and had the rest of the day free more power to them to do whatever they wanted, be it sitting on the couch or going to Newry.

The really annoying part is the attempts to use traffic jams in Newry to undermine the ps, with no evidence whatsoever.

imme

nesf wrote: »

One of the main Impact guys was on the 6.1 News saying that he "didn't accept that any PS workers went shopping in Newry" as well as going on about how many were visible picketing all day in Dublin. And my annoyance is not directed at PS workers but at union representatives, I don't equate the two unlike some people on here.

I love how you've twisted what I said beyond any recognition to what I actually typed though.

What difference does it make if a union rep says he doesn't accept that any PS workers went to Newry. He doesn't speak for all other union members or PS workers who are not members of unions. Did you want PS workers to be on pickets all day, from midnight to midnight.
I did see a union picket outside TCD at 2am on the morning of the strike.

How did I twist your words?

nesf

prinz wrote: »

Most weren't manning pickets all day because the pickets were organised on a rota basis. Therefore if some picketed for a few hours and had the rest of the day free more power to them to do whatever they wanted, be it sitting on the couch or going to Newry.

The really annoying part is the attempts to use traffic jams in Newry to undermine the ps, with no evidence whatsoever.

imme wrote: »

What difference does it make if a union rep says he doesn't accept that any PS workers went to Newry. He doesn't speak for all other union members or PS workers who are not members of unions. Did you want PS workers to be on pickets all day, from midnight to midnight.
I did see a union picket outside TCD at 2am on the morning of the strike.

How did I twist your words?

The difference is when someone like Jack O'Connor refuses to accept something on the News, rather than simply saying that like anyone these workers used the half day they had free to get some shopping done, undermines whatever good came from the strike by making it look like the leaders of said strike are detached from reality.

The other side is that parents who had to take a day's leave to mind the kids on short notice aren't going to be particularly happy about people taking the day off for shopping. Now personally I don't agree with this but this kind of reaction will happen because many people will be pissed off about needing to lose a day's holidays over this and will latch on anything to give out about.

imme

nesf wrote: »

The difference is when someone like Jack O'Connor refuses to accept something on the News, rather than simply saying that like anyone these workers used the half day they had free to get some shopping done, undermines whatever good came from the strike by making it look like the leaders of said strike are detached from reality.

The other side is that parents who had to take a day's leave to mind the kids on short notice aren't going to be particularly happy about people taking the day off for shopping. Now personally I don't agree with this but this kind of reaction will happen because many people will be pissed off about needing to lose a day's holidays over this and will latch on anything to give out about.

O'Connor is with SIPTU.
Was he defending his members, natural reaction, how was the Newry issue raised, did the interviewer suggest the strike wasn't a success because some PS workers might have gone to NI for some shopping?
True, some people had to take a day off because schools were off for the day.

starbelgrade

Is Newry the only town with shops in the North?