What could the state do if the Gardai were to strike?

Red Sleeping Beauty

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/1207/breaking29.htm
Dermot Ahern Minister for Justice put out the govternemet and stats's stall in response to the GRA balloting its members in saying :

"We will pursue anything within the law," Minister Ahern said. "The people who uphold the law can't be law-breakers… no society can countenance that, no democracy can countenance that.

"I think people need to reflect on this. The only thing that this will do - if they were to go on strike - the only people it would help would be the criminals."
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/ahern-gardai-who-strike-could-face-legal-action-437321.html#ixzz0Z3AUrdKz

So what will the state/Dept. of Justice actually do if (in the probably unlikely event) the Gardai do break the law?
There was a chap on Vincent Browne's TV3 show tonight who said the establishment of the GRA was technically illegal but nothing was done to challenge it.

Victor

The GRA is not a trade union. There is some special term for the set up but it escapes me for the moment. But essentially the GRA work for and are paid by the commissioner and its staff are subject to Garda discipline.

Not all gardaí will take part in any blue flu / strike. Students and probationers don't have any job security and are unlikely to risk their futures. Anyone above, I think, Inspector is considered management and it would not be normal for them to strike. The Garda Reserve have nothing to strike for.

--amadeus--

What the State *should* do (and could do) is make clear that any member of AGS who strikes will be perused through the criminal justice system, tried and (if guilty) convicted. I am assuming that a criminal conviction of that sort would result in immediate expulsion from teh Force and I hope that this would have a knock on effect on pension entitlements.

Let any who have the courage of thier convictions strike away...

jhegarty

I understand even the holding of a ballot is illegal.

How about voting in one ?

crocro

Victor, I think 'amoral porcine cartel' is the phrase you're grasping for.

Is the Garda Síochána Act 1924 still in force? If so, then it could be 2 years hard labour for PJ Stone.

14.—(1) If any person causes, or attempts to cause, or does any act calculated to cause, disaffection amongst the members of the Gárda Síochána, or induces, or attempts to induce, or does any act calculated to induce any member of the Gárda Síochána to withhold his service or to commit a breach of discipline, he shall be guilty of a misdemeanour, and shall be liable on conviction on indictment to imprisonment, with or without hard labour, for a term not exceeding two years, or on summary conviction, to imprisonment, with or without hard labour, for a term not exceeding six months, or to a fine not exceeding fifty pounds, or to both such imprisonment and fine.
(2) Every fine imposed under this section shall be paid to the Gárda Síochána Reward Fund.

johnfás

crocro wrote: »

Victor, I think 'amoral porcine cartel' is the phrase you're grasping for.

Is the Garda Síochána Act 1924 still in force? If so, then it could be 2 years hard labour for PJ Stone.

No, the applicable provisions are in the 2005 Act.

neilthefunkeone

If they did start convicting or proceeding to convict guards then it will get a whole lot messier..

dats_right

If things don't resolve themselves then I would think that the state will seek injunctive relief to prevent any action, and or consider sending a fie/having DPP consider bringing charges against GRA executive members, afterall it is not feasible to prosecute 12,000 members of AGS. Although this step would be highly emotive and could result in a massive escalation of the dispute.

celticbest

neilthefunkeone wrote: »

If they did start convicting or proceeding to convict guards then it will get a whole lot messier..

Yes, for the Garda involved !!

I know it takes time and money to train a Guard, but in the current economic environment and with the current high level of unemployment how many people would be willing to take a job as a Guard?? (Let's not forget we have had over 500 people queuing for positions in a shop in Dublin......), I would say that at least a couple of thousand would love to have a stable public sector job.

The Government has to stand up to this as it is the Laws of the State which would suffer if they didn't. It is illegal after all is said and done for them to Strike. It they decide on the Blue Flu route the minimum that should happen is suspensions for everyone involved.

johnfás

Well if it did descend into all out strike it is obvious that the Garda Siochana Act would be of limited usefulness. It would not, in reality, be possible to round up all the Gardaí and put them through the criminal courts.

However, it would seem most unlikely that such a situation would arise. More likely would be the criminal sanction of the leadership of the GRA prior to a strike actually happening as a pre-emptive measure. Again though, I doubt that would be very likely as it would create martyrs.

If the GRA do proceed in this direction, I would think most likely is a threat from the State to withdraw its recognition of the GRA. They are not a Union and although I do not know the basis for their organisation, I would imagine it would be quite possible for the Government to cease any engagement with the organisation.

That would some the most politically expedient thing for a Government to do in the circumstances. I doubt it will really come to it though, and I certainly hope that it does not. I would suspect this is just sabre rattling.

hoolamoppa

johnfás wrote: »

Well if it did descend into all out strike it is obvious that the Garda Siochana Act would be of limited usefulness. It would not, in reality, be possible to round up all the Gardaí and put them through the criminal courts.

However, it would seem most unlikely that such a situation would arise. More likely would be the criminal sanction of the leadership of the GRA prior to a strike actually happening as a pre-emptive measure. Again though, I doubt that would be very likely as it would create martyrs.

If the GRA do proceed in this direction, I would think most likely is a threat from the State to withdraw its recognition of the GRA. They are not a Union and although I do not know the basis for their organisation, I would imagine it would be quite possible for the Government to cease any engagement with the organisation.

the state does not recognise the GRA really anyway. It will not negotiate with them.

the basis for them is that they represent their members in relation to discipline procedures, working conditions, complaints etc.

there will be no mandate for ;industrial action'

Reloc8

As to what the State could do :

Individual gardai could be prosecuted for various offences under the Garda Siochana Act 2005.

Collectively the force and its representative bodies could be injuncted from striking or taking steps preparatory to striking.

freefromgov2009

Alan Rouge wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/1207/breaking29.htm
Dermot Ahern Minister for Justice put out the govternemet and stats's stall in response to the GRA balloting its members in saying :

"We will pursue anything within the law," Minister Ahern said. "The people who uphold the law can't be law-breakers… no society can countenance that, no democracy can countenance that.

"I think people need to reflect on this. The only thing that this will do - if they were to go on strike - the only people it would help would be the criminals."
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/ahern-gardai-who-strike-could-face-legal-action-437321.html#ixzz0Z3AUrdKz

So what will the state/Dept. of Justice actually do if (in the probably unlikely event) the Gardai do break the law?
There was a chap on Vincent Browne's TV3 show tonight who said the establishment of the GRA was technically illegal but nothing was done to challenge it.

why dont they say that instead of going on strike they will just be guardians of the peace for a day like they used to, instead of being policy inforcement officers, they could call it (keep your oath for the people day) that would get them all the support they need from the people who issued them there oath in the first place, we the people.

blubloblu

Could the army be given the powers of the Gardaí in an emergency situation?

Reloc8

blubloblu wrote: »

Could the army be given the powers of the Gardaí in an emergency situation?

Yes.

Carawaystick

hoolamoppa wrote: »

johnfás wrote: »

Well if it did descend into all out strike it is obvious that the Garda Siochana Act would be of limited usefulness. It would not, in reality, be possible to round up all the Gardaí and put them through the criminal courts.

Would it not be possible to prosecute them on the day before their retirement?/suspend them till criminal proceedings were finished and then deny criminal former gardaí their pensions?

use the delay to say they could n't do them all now excuse or flag the prosecution to prevent senior gardaí taking part now and change the pension section of the law removing any pension void for former members who struck?

Reloc8

As an aside, the potential legal options open to the State are of course an interesting topic. With that said this is the perfect example of a situation where notwithstanding legal options, one hopes never to have to exercise them...because those available, frankly, suck.

The situation calls for a non-legal solution...because there isn't a legal one.

dermot_sheehan

I honestly don't think it would come to any legal action other then injuncting the GRA because the vast majority of Gardai are professionals who understand it's their duty to uphold the law.

But any public worker who thinks their services are so essential that they can flout a legal ban on striking should remember what Regan did to the air traffic controllers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Air_Traffic_Controllers_Organization_%281968%29

crocro

Garda Síochána Act 2005

Representative organisations may be disbanded by the minister and may not negotiate on pay, conditions or pension:

18.—(1) For the purpose of representing members of the Garda
Síochaína in all matters affecting their welfare and efficiency
(including pay, pensions and conditions of service), there may be
established, in accordance with the regulations, one or more than
one association for all or any one or more of the ranks of the Garda
Síochána below the rank of Assistant Garda Commissioner.
(2) An association established under subsection (1) must be independent
of and not associated with any body or person outside the
Garda Síochána, but it may employ persons who are not members
of the Garda Síochána.
(3) A member of the Garda Síochána shall not be or become a
member of any trade union or association (other than an association
established under this section or section 13 of the Garda Síochána
Act 1924) any object of which is to control or influence the pay,
pensions or conditions of service of the Garda Síochána.
(4) If any question arises whether any body or association is a
trade union or association referred to in subsection (3), the question
shall be determined by the Minister whose determination shall be
final.
(5) The Minister—
(a) may, notwithstanding subsection (2), authorise an association
established under this section to be associated with
a person or body outside the Garda Síochána in such
cases and in such manner and subject to such conditions
or restrictions as he or she may specify, and
(b) may vary or withdraw any such authorisation.
(6) An association established under this section for the purpose
of representing members of the Garda Síochána holding the rank of
Garda may include persons admitted, in accordance with the regulations,
to training for membership in the Garda Síochána.

Offence of causing disaffection in the ranks by inducing a strike (that's you, PJ)

59.—(1) A person is guilty of an offence if he or she induces, or
does any act calculated to induce, any member of the Garda Síochána to withhold his or her services or to commit a breach of
discipline.
(2) A person guilty of an offence under subsection (1) is liable—
(a) on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding €3,000 or
imprisonment for a term not exceeding 12 months or
both, or
(b) on conviction on indictment, to a fine not exceeding
€50,000 or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 5 years
or both.

dermot_sheehan

crocro wrote: »

Garda Síochána Act 2005

Representative organisations may be disbanded by the minister and may not negotiate on pay, conditions or pension:


Offence of causing disaffection in the ranks by inducing a strike (that's you, PJ)

Hmm

5 years in prison, so arrestable offence, any citizen can arrest a striking garda

Hooch

gabhain7 wrote: »

Hmm

5 years in prison, so arrestable offence, any citizen can arrest a striking garda

Dont agree there.....dont the regulations cover inducing a strike......not the member accually striking??

dermot_sheehan

Striking members are inducing each other to withold their services.

murrayp4

I would say that a member on a picket outside a station would be inducing others to withold services.

Victor

Carawaystick wrote: »

Would it not be possible to prosecute them on the day before their retirement?/suspend them till criminal proceedings were finished and then deny criminal former gardaí their pensions?

That is what the government can do. Tell the GRA that if there is a strike, people will be prosecuted (sentence need not necessarily be served) and they will lose their pension.

hornyfemale

The Guards don't strike, it's illegal. There'll just be a flu epidemic within the Garda

Nehaxak

Maybe we will have that swine flu pandemic after all...

(sorry, I couldn't resist...)

Bizarro Stormy

It is potentially within the governments remit to declare a state of emergency and give the Defence Forces powers of arrest under martial law. The last emergency powers act lapsed in the 70's but it may become necessary to re-institute a similar set of powers if an Gardai Siochana go on an all out strike. I don't think there is any precident for this in post 1945 Europe.

It is important to note that in the last 4 decades the Gardai have grown in size considerably and accrued far more roles which were previously the remit of the Defence Forces or duplicating areas of expertise. In the same period the manpower of the Defence Forces have roughly halved (After the cutbacks since 2008, Ireland's defence spending has plummeted to 0.5pc of GDP) In the "Blue Flu" situation, there was sufficient manpower to cover for Gardai on 'sick leave'. This is no longer remotely feasible and to maintain civil order, something like curfews would need to be established.

It is simply not acceptable to have a police force go on strike for any reason in a democratic republic. This is an issue of the authority of the government which is derived from a mandate from the people. If an all out strike does take place and the government is forced to give in, we would in effect then be living in a de-facto police state. I do not believe senior Gardai, the government or the media have properly thought through the immediate and long-term ramifications of an all-out strike.

Commotion Ocean

The army will have to be brought in to keep order, however, according to a news bulletin I was listening to, they won't have powers of arrest which is nonsense, doesn't everyone have the right to perform a citizens arrest? So can the army not just perform one on anyone they feel may be committing a crime?

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Little CuChulainn

The legislation on citizens arrest requires the suspect be handed over to Gardaí. Not really possible if there are none working. It's also orth noting that the Council of Europe have ruled the governments stance on Garda Industrial relations rights, specifically denial of trade union status and all it entails, is a breach of international law. The government has ignored this ruling.

Manach

This is hardly like to devolve into the Purge. The traditional societal norms that hold the nation while frayed have some power left to bind. There is a distinction between the enforcement arm of the state and the general expectations of a civil society which, at least in former times, had only relied on a minimal presence to keep order.

Ginger83

--amadeus-- wrote: »

What the State *should* do (and could do) is make clear that any member of AGS who strikes will be perused through the criminal justice system, tried and (if guilty) convicted. I am assuming that a criminal conviction of that sort would result in immediate expulsion from teh Force and I hope that this would have a knock on effect on pension entitlements.

Let any who have the courage of thier convictions strike away...

Or it backfires and they ALL strike and then as members are convicted more strikes, very messy then.

Strength in numbers

GM228

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

The legislation on citizens arrest requires the suspect be handed over to Gardaí. Not really possible if there are none working.

As soon as practible, when they return to work would satisfy that requirement, however the issue would be detention though.

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

It's also orth noting that the Council of Europe have ruled the governments stance on Garda Industrial relations rights, specifically denial of trade union status and all it entails, is a breach of international law. The government has ignored this ruling.

That's incorrect, the "decision" of the Council was non-binding. Something the GRA, AGSI and the media failed to point out!

Kings Inns or bust

GM228 wrote: »

That's incorrect, the "decision" of the Council was non-binding as EU law can't actually legislate on the right to strike. Something the GRA, AGSI and the media failed to point out!

Ahem...

While some may see it as sour grapes if I point this out overtly so I'm just gonna say you were testing us with that one weren't you? :pac:

Kings Inns or bust

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Being a pedant here but other general powers of arrest exist at common law and in statute. For example the power to arrest in relation to criminal damage:

Criminal Damage Act, 1991

12.—(1) This section applies to an offence under this Act other than section 5 or 13 (4).

(2) Any person may arrest without warrant anyone who is or whom he, with reasonable cause, suspects to be in the act of committing an offence to which this section applies.

(3) Where an offence to which this section applies has been committed, any person may arrest without warrant anyone who is or whom he, with reasonable cause, suspects to be guilty of the offence.

(4) Where a member of the Garda Síochána, with reasonable cause, suspects that an offence to which this section applies or an offence under section 13 (4) has been committed, he may arrest without warrant anyone whom he, with reasonable cause, suspects to be guilty of the offence.

(5) A member of the Garda Síochána may arrest without warrant anyone who is or whom he, with reasonable cause, suspects to be about to commit an offence to which this section applies.

(6) For the purpose of arresting a person under any power conferred by this section a member of the Garda Síochána may enter (if need be, by force) and search any place where that person is or where the member, with reasonable cause, suspects him to be.

(7) This section shall apply to an attempt to commit an offence as it applies to the commission of that offence.

(8) This section shall not prejudice any power of arrest conferred by law apart from this section.

Edit: In attempt to remove myself from the firing line of Hullaballoo's gloves, I will point out that all of the offences in the act above are triable either way.

hullaballoo

Are we going to have another fight about the limitations on the powers of arrest (and or detention)? It's always good crack.

I'll go get my sparring gloves.

Kings Inns or bust

On that note, by Cricket bat will be at the ready for any opportunistic burglars looking to remove my ten year old TV or battered Fiat.

4ensic15

Ironically enough, the Military Police Corps of the Defence Forces (Permanent and Reserve) used to have about 1,000 members before the government eliminated most of it. Only in the low hundreds now. So much for being prepared. The Military Police are trained in Road traffic law and crime investigation. A day without guards could have been easily handled.

Brasros

4ensic15 wrote:

Ironically enough, the Military Police Corps of the Defence Forces (Permanent and Reserve) used to have about 1,000 members before the government eliminated most of it. Only in the low hundreds now. So much for being prepared. The Military Police are trained in Road traffic law and crime investigation. A day without guards could have been easily handled.

Marshal law? Could fix alot of problems in society with it.

Kings Inns or bust

Brasros wrote: »

Marshal law? Could fix alot of problems in society with it.

Absolutely! It works so well in other places.

NUTLEY BOY

I have not had the impression that the Gardai are going on strike in the conventional sense. I thought that the strategy that they were going to employ was akin to a very strict work to rule.

I don't think that I would be too keen on the aid to the civil powers investigating road traffic accidents or similar traffic duties. Dealing with members of the general public might not be as easy as dealing with fellow members of the military where both parties know the score exactly in terms of authority. What would the military police do with a S. 49 / drunk driver on the N11 ? Would the inevitable arrest be valid and would the suspect be capable of being processed in the technically correct way procedurally ? Imagine the court fun with that.

GM228

Kings Inns or bust wrote: »

GM228 wrote: »

That's incorrect, the "decision" of the Council was non-binding as EU law can't actually legislate on the right to strike. Something the GRA, AGSI and the media failed to point out!

Ahem...

While some may see it as sour grapes if I point this out overtly so I'm just gonna say you were testing us with that one weren't you? :pac:

Sorry Kings Inn, not testing you on that one, (was getting mixed up for a moment between the Council of Europe and the European Council).

Council of Europe decisions are usually considered to be binding amongst their 47 member states, but not this time.

There's a difference between what is considered binding and what is legally binding I suppose.

http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/PR14000166

In a non-binding ruling, the Committee found that Ireland was not in compliance with:


1. Article 5 of the Charter (the right to organise) on grounds of the prohibition against police representative associations from joining national employees’ organisations;

2. Article 6§2 of the Charter (the right to bargain collectively) on grounds of restricted access of police representative associations into pay agreement discussions; and

3. Article 6§4 of the Charter on grounds of the prohibition of the right to strike of members of the police.

The Committee has found that there was no violation of Article 5 of the Charter concerning the prohibition of police from establishing trade unions as it was established that the police representative associations enjoy the basic trade union rights within the meaning of Article 5 of the Charter.

mynamejeff

the whole garda strike thing is an interesting proposition.

they named 4 or 5 days right ? so if there is mass chaos the first day there will be a settlement before the second day, the government are willing to take the risk to see what happens, If nothing happens the gardai are Fcuked ! and will be getting an even rawer deal.

Cops strike in Canada resulted in 6 bank jobs 100 shops looted thousands of criminal damage incidents


As for the public stepping up to arrest criminals ? lol that im afraid will just result in thousands of allegations of assault and counter assault. more meat for the solicitors when the dust clears . No people will mind their own stuff thats about the limit of that.

ditto the army they have neither the numbers the experience nor the facilities. Its one thing stoping a brawl or whatever but what do you do with the crook then ?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_police_revolts_in_Argentina

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Ecuador_crisis


http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,840236,00.html

ball is solely in the governments court to prevent this mess now to clear up the mess they created

GM228

4ensic15 wrote: »

The Military Police are trained in Road traffic law and crime investigation. A day without guards could have been easily handled.

Indeed they are, but currently they can only exercise their powers where someone is subject to military law AFAIK. It would not apply to nornal non-military road traffic laws and investigations.

4ensic15

GM228 wrote: »

Indeed they are, but currently they can only exercise their powers where someone is subject to military law AFAIK. It would not apply to nornal non-military road traffic laws and investigations.

The law can easily be changed. The reality is that there are so few Military Police available it would be pointless.