A Catholic rather than a Christian country

philologos

This is a topic that has been coming up in the Irish Times over the past few days leading on from an article by John Waters on the Murphy Report (N.B - Please discuss the topic rather than ranting on abuse):

We appear not to have absorbed into our culture any real understanding of what Christ came to tell us, writes JOHN WATERS
THERE IS a place, between pew and public square, which has yet to be heard or even acknowledged in the wake of the Dublin diocesan report. It is not reached by either the moral/legalism of the media-driven public conversation or the pious mantras in which the Irish Catholic Church addresses its faithful.
Because our public discourse has an agnostic rulebook, there are limits to its probing. All Christians are citizens but not all citizens Christians, so the discussion avoids showing an interest in matters that might be deemed in-house. The Murphy report has, of course, many implications of a civic, moral and socio-political complexion, and the debate has been pretty exhaustive about these. But there are deeper questions pertaining to Christianity, which by definition cannot be dealt with in a public discussion in which faith has been separated from knowledge of reality.
Catholics can go to church seeking answers, but the most they can hope for is a replication of the responses offered to the civic realm. Some priests may address their congregations, but of necessity their contributions will be tailored to take account of external realities, while adhering to a form of cultural expression that might be deemed part of the larger problem. The bishops are preoccupied with institutional survival.
This crisis did not begin, or become visible, with the publication of the Murphy report, which outlines symptoms rather than root problems. The fundamental crisis is not institutional, but lies at the heart of Irish Christianity. It will not be ended by resignations or public apologies. It has provoked a number of other crises at the social and civic levels, which may well be ameliorated by such gestures, but these are secondary.
Sociological analyses are beside the point. By way of defining the true crisis, I have to ask a question implicitly considered beyond the remit of secular journalism: where does Irish Catholicism stand with Christ? There is a superficial way of asking this that will ground itself immediately in popular piety, provoking a nodding or shaking of heads in acknowledgement of the yawning gap between the principles of Christianity and how certain priests and bishops behaved. But that is not what I have in mind. In fact, this pious understanding of Christianity may be at the root of the evils that have been exposed.
What is assaulted in the Christian sensibility by child abuse and its cover-up is not faith in the integrity of bishops, but an instilled sense of the world revealed by Christ, from the very moments we opened our eyes, in which each of us is loved beyond imagining. The sense of betrayal therefore extends far beyond any sense of the breaching of laws, civil conventions or even moral principles. It is a metaphysical affront.
In their anger, people talk of walking away from the Catholic Church, as though the issue were membership of a club or adherence to an ideology, like a population of Marxists discovering the crimes of its communist rulers. But Christ is not the bearded founder of an interesting philosophical movement, someone we “remember” as having briefly come among us to lay down principles for good living. For Christians, Christ is the incarnation of the mystery that defines humanity.
Somehow, something of this Christ was communicated to us, but our sense of Him remained separate from our relationships with the Catholic Church. In the public expression of faith, we marched under a particular banner, signed up to a moral programme and retained a sentimental idea of a handsome and charismatic man who turned water into wine. But we appear not to have absorbed into our culture any real understanding of what Christ came to tell us. How could we have, if so many of those who told us about Him did not themselves appear to know that He is here every moment? We speak the name of this man-god Christ but no one who eavesdropped on our conversations from outside would gather that we were talking about the redeemer of human fragility and the incarnation of human destiny.
What is missing is not intensity of faith, but awareness of human reality. Christ is not the icon of a popular piety based on a necessary moralism or a salutary tradition. He is a living man, who is here now, and whose presence defines everything. Either we know this or we don’t. It is not a matter of faith, but of knowledge.
Our fundamental – ie religious – relationships are not with priests, bishops, or even the pope, but with a person who happens to be God. Either this is true or it’s not. If it is not, then it is time to discuss the funeral arrangements of the culture we have taken for granted. If we believe it to be true, we need to begin speaking in public about vital things in a way that will allow us to access the full extent of what we imagine we believe.
The shocking possibility arises: Ireland has been a Catholic country, but not really Christian. If so, it should not surprise us that men raised to be priests in such a culture would enjoy no special immunity to evil. But this is the result, not the cause of our problem.

Here are also letters which relate to this article. I think some of them are a bit harsh, but is there any truth to this article or these letters?

Madam, – John Waters (Opinion, December 4th) is absolutely correct, “Ireland has been a Catholic country, but not really a Christian one”. Jesus Christ told us to recognise this on the basis of the fruit in people’s lives. He is clear about the outcome on the day of judgment for some religious people who try to justify themselves – “Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’.” The issue for everyone is to decide whether we will order our lives in accordance with what he says or not. It is an active and conscious choice that we have to make as adults rather that a tradition we are born with. Such a new beginning is what Christ is talking about when he says, “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again”. Individually we have to ask God to give us a new life and a new relationship with him in order to receive the power to overcome sin. This is what is lacking. – Yours, etc,

Madam, – What have Christianity and Catholicism got in common? Nothing. Christ sacrificed himself to protect the innocent whereas the Catholic Church sacrificed the innocent to protect themselves. In light of the litany of horrors being unearthed, how can any right-minded person wear the robes or attend the services of an organisation that is the opposite of what Christ taught? A corrupt Rome put him to death 2000 years ago and today an equally corrupt Rome rules in his name. Shame on those who are clearly shameless and shame on us for letting them get away with it. – Yours, etc,

Names and addresses removed.

Turtwig

I'm sensing bias here because JW is a born again Christian.

Ireland is culturally a Catholic country, end of.
Ireland is Christian too, most Catholic I know are devout well behaved and following the message of Catholicism to the tee.
Waters, is doing something that I loathe the most: using the scandal in the Church as a bid to undermine the Catholic Faith.

philologos

Malty T: You learn something new everyday.
Edit: I can't find anything to confirm this though

Although I sense that the first letter comes from such a bias also.

rohatch

Malty_T wrote: »

I'm sensing bias here because JW is a born again Christian.

Ireland is culturally a Catholic country, end of.
Ireland is Christian too, most Catholic I know are devout well behaved and following the message of Catholicism to the tee.
Waters, is doing something that I loathe the most: using the scandal in the Church as a bid to undermine the Catholic Faith.

I think the catholic faith has undermined itself.
The sooner its power (earned through brutality, longevity, and fantastic survival skills) is removed from it and the institution is torn down the better. I dont care for JW.

lmaopml

Hi Jackass,

Waters can be very biased sometimes.....Although, I believe there is something in there that rings true. Of course, it's true of every denomination that some don't seem to follow the core teaching of Jesus......For instance you have suicide bombers etc. that have absolutely nothing got to do with Islam...... those bishops etc. were not living the way of Jesus for sure - the best of them played lip service to a few - and the others ran scared and didn't deal with such behaviour seriously and root it out before it took such a hold. The quote, "Whatever you do to the least of my children, that you do on to me" comes to mind....... Unfortunately we seemed to form a hierarchy within our society who looked to the Church as an actual God, as opposed to using it as the vessel it was only ever meant to be...The Church aint Jesus, and I agree with Waters that he is 'ever present', and we should always be aware of that.....We're not learning about some fella in the past who is gone now and left a rule book....

However, I think he's being a bit blaze about the billions of Catholics all over the Globe who understand quite clearly that the Church is a means to an end. It's important, but it's not Jesus and we don't 'adore' the church.....It's a pity we all get bundled in together because of a few really rotten apples

I also don't think Irish people are somehow not getting the teaching - most of us live it every day, and we look the same and do the same things as our fellow faithful of various denominations. We're not some kind of institution worshipping idiots as Waters seems to be alluding to.....There are lots and lots of 'true' Catholics too..I found his outlook of us as 'citizens' on the overly gloomy side..lol...

Ach sure, everybody is on this at the moment....Sometimes I wonder at the shock and horror, it seemed to be such common knowledge at the time to steer clear of certain priests, and yet NOBODY did anything....I don't know, I'm just glad that we don't tolerate it anymore....I also worry about where they are hiding now - If there is a lesson to learn to my mind, it would be to never ever tolerate children being put in a situation that is going to cause them harm. The peadophiles are still out there, they're just hiding in other places now....Let's not be blind or blaze about that...

philologos

I put them up here for discussion. I had no doubt that people would disagree with his outcomes or conclusions, or the letters concerning his article.

Plowman

This post has been deleted.

Graces7

Much as we love Holy Mother Church, or probably because we do?

The letters are not harsh enough for what has been done by the Church in these last decades, and covered up.

And certainly these are not the actions of any Christian; to abuse little children and to cover that up and thus allow and sanction more abuse of little children.

If you read Matthew 18 as a whole.....
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+18&version=KJV

So in that definition?

Not even Catholic in the sense that the Bishops are not living the teachings of Holy Mother Church. Or the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ. On which the Church is supposed to be founded.

Many are leaving the Catholic Church for these reasons.

See

http://clericalwhispers.blogspot.com/2009/12/4000-quit-church-online.html

Plowman wrote: »

Actually, I think there is something true about this line in terms of the kinds of influence the Catholic Church had in twentieth century Ireland. Its brand of faith seems to have been very much about following rules and staying in line. Having said that, I am not suggesting that the faith held by Irish Catholics was not genuine. But when religion becomes this regimented and reductive, the religion bit itself (the important bit) can get pushed to one side. I don't know what the pre-Vatican II church was like, but I don't think I would have liked it! I think that is what he means by Ireland being Catholic without being Christian, although that statement is still a sweeping generalisation.

And those letters are rather harsh.

PDN

Malty_T wrote: »

I'm sensing bias here because JW is a born again Christian.

Got a source for that? I read an interview with him a while back where he said he regularly attends Catholic mass in Dalkey.

Graces7

So?

There are Spirit-filled, born- again Christians who are also Catholics and thus attend Mass regularly.. I am one such, so I know these things....

"Born- again" is not generally a denomination or tradition.But a spiritual matter.

PDN wrote: »

Got a source for that? I read an interview with him a while back where he said he regularly attends Catholic mass in Dalkey.

PDN

Graces7 wrote: »

So?

There are Spirit-filled, born- again Christians who are also Catholics and thus attend Mass regularly.. I am one such, so I know these things....

"Born- again" is not generally a denomination or tradition.But a spiritual matter.

I was responding to a poster (Malty T) who was using the description of 'born again' to assert that Waters was therefore an outsider having a pop at the Catholic Church.

I am asking for a source to support that. If he is a born again Catholic then what is wrong with him using the clerical abuse scandal as a reason to criticise stuff within his own church?

Turtwig

PDN wrote: »

Got a source for that? I read an interview with him a while back where he said he regularly attends Catholic mass in Dalkey.

I'm afraid I don't, I've only got my mind shouting it out at me from somewhere. Other than that I can't find a source on the net and when I google "John Waters religion" I end up back at this thread.:(
Take it with a pinch of salt as the guy has swapped "faiths" more than once. So If you read in an interview that he was attending mass in Dalkey, they're probably more reliable than I can be right now..:(

Phototoxin

I have to agree. I have a friend who is in a 'typical' country irish catholic family. He's involved with an American (who's catholic also) but she's Hawaiin (ie not white *shock horror*) His parents wont talk to him. They are 'disappointed' So aside from the fact that shes of the same religion and female she doesn't fit into the pre-constructed mould ergo IT MUST BE WRONG!!

One thing about protestants that I find is that they are more accepting and tolerant even if they are sometimes more conservative.

I hope that makes sense - I'm spaced out on drugs (tonsillitis not anything else)

SirHenryGrattan

I have never heard Waters complain when the RCC asserts it's opposition to capital punishment, racism, unfair treatment of immigrants, climate change scepticism, poverty, prostitution and anything else that aligns with his left wing agenda. It's is the Catholic Church's opposition to the sexual revolution that raises his ire. Ironically there is plenty of evidence to suggest that it was the RCC's post Vatican 2 embrace of liberal values that started the rot. Take these two books on the sex scandals in America. The customer reviews are an eye opener. Clonliffe and Maynooth seminaries need similar examination.


Goodbye, Good Men: How Liberals Brought Corruption Into the Catholic Church

http://www.amazon.com/Goodbye-Good-Men-Liberals-Corruption/dp/0895261448/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1260426397&sr=8-2

Having spent ten years in the seminary studying to be a Catholic priest for the Diocese of Orange in California, I picked up Rose's piece of work on a whim. The first couple of pages scared the hell out of me because he is right on target. The seminary system in and of itself is corrupted at its core... more time was spent in class discussing heretical theologicans and the need for openness towards women than the actual studies that would help us be priests! Homosexuality was in full force and more than a few guys were openly dating each other. Rose exposes these troubled times within the seminary system with a full force that should be acknowledged. Until the Bishops of America decide to overhaul the seminary system and strengthen the requirements of prayer and the Mass and eliminate the feel good spirituality classes that are taught there, the Church will continue to suffer. I personally know some of the persons written by Rose... and none of it surprises me.
--

The Faithful Departed: The Collapse of Boston's Catholic Culture

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0895261448/ref=ord_cart_shr?_encoding=UTF8&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&v=glance

As the controversy surrounding the Catholic Church deepens, many people are asking: How could this have happened? In a new book, Goodbye, Good Men, author Michael Rose presents shocking evidence that the root of the problem extends down to the very place where vocations to the priesthood germinate: the seminary. Rose, who over the course of two years interviewed some 125 seminarians representing fifty dioceses and twenty-two major seminaries, has uncovered a profound spiritual problem inside the seminaries and a sickness of untold proportions.

Goodbye, Good Men: How Liberals Brought Corruption into the Catholic Church exposes the deliberate infiltration by those who wish to change the doctrines, disciplines and mission of the Catholic Church. This radical subculture and its liberal mindset-one that accepts homosexuality and sexual promiscuity in many seminaries-threatens the future of the Catholic Church.

The gay subculture is so prominent at certain seminaries that they have earned nicknames such as: "Pink Palace" (St. Mary's Seminary in Baltimore), "Notre Flame" (Notre Dame Seminary in New Orleans), and "Theological Closet" (Theological College at the Catholic University of America in Washington, DC). At these and several other seminaries, Rose found shocking examples of how, time and time again, chaste heterosexual seminarians are dismissed as unfit for the priesthood, while promiscuous homosexuals, and even those who have harassed, molested, or even raped other seminarians, are protected or promoted.

old_aussie

Muslims will cause all variations of Christianity to comnbine.

Catholics as such will not exist, just a Christian world will exist.