Dodgy practices in militaria collecting

Morlar

I thought this thread might be interesting to some people here.

Particularly anyone with items they are curious about getting valued (as there are plenty of Irish homes with WW1, Rising, War of Independence & Civil War items which would have similair value). This may be worth bearing in mind if you are looking for an evaluation anytime soon.

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=398374

It basically tells how an american who had a third reich dagger posted pictures of it for an evaluation on a forum.

The accepted value on the thread was between $30,000 and $50,000.

He received several private messages saying 'nice dagger - but it's way over valued on the thread'.

He was then pm'd by a very, very well known & respected collector and author of countless books on third reich militaria.

He agreed to sell it for the far lower amount (which matched what he saw in the private messages but not the thread) for $10,000. It was then re-sold for 'substantially' more.

Finally to top it all off almost 2 years later he still has not been paid even the first installment of his $10,000.

The buyer is someone very well known on german militaria forums and so in my view this goes to show that you literally can not trust anyone in this hobby & it pays to get as many 2nd opinions as possible & not to trust private messages over what people will say in public on a forum, also never to part with the item until you are paid in full. Very sad story & in my view worth remembering.

danpatjoe

I've been following that shameful story and I feel really badly for the poor guy who sent the dagger for inspection prior to the sale.

I had heard in the past of the said dealer's involvement in nefarious practices in the area of militaria collecting - along with some other individuals, he was 'supposedly' involved in the faking of high end diamond awards which were 'supposedly' promoted as genuine in some of his militaria reference books.


Preusse -
What is the situation with this site - Are we allowed to name the dealer involved?

arnhem44

Thats an amazing story and very sickening at the same time,to follow each link revealed the truth behind the crook right down to him reselling it,I think he should be named and shamed like all the other forums are doing,people need to be made aware of dealers like this.

paddywhack262

sadly this guy seemingly was well know around his area for doing it!as an author of 28 books you would think he wouldnt sell his reputation for 6k!!!

Morlar

paddywhack262 wrote: »

sadly this guy seemingly was well know around his area for doing it!as an author of 28 books you would think he wouldnt sell his reputation for 6k!!!

That is really such a shame. I can remember the times after militaria fairs people would end up in the pub and invariably end up talking about the best collections out there. His collection would be one that everybody had heard of and thought was one of the most impressive - better than any museum.

From now on though whenever his name crops up it will be among the likes of Pawel Nowak and the stories of the Irish financial collector who bought the batons and was ripped off for millions in high end fakes. His career as an author is also in peril and assuming there is a courtcase he stands to lose quite a bit if it goes against him. Decades worth of reputation gone for the sake of so little money.

Dr Strange

danpatjoe wrote: »

Preusse -
What is the situation with this site - Are we allowed to name the dealer involved?

Sorry dan, that would not be a good idea and could cause problems for the boards bosses. You can always write about your own experiences etc while leaving the names out. If another collector is interested in finding out about who you are talking about they can pm you and whatever goes on in private messages is your business

paddywhack262

im am a bit new to this forum but why cant you name the person? its clear what he did and naming names would help other collectors maybe getting ripped off!!

kowloon

paddywhack262 wrote: »

im am a bit new to this forum but why cant you name the person? its clear what he did and naming names would help other collectors maybe getting ripped off!!

I think he might have to be prosecuted for it first, otherwise he's not legally guilty of anything.

Dr Strange

paddywhack262 wrote: »

im am a bit new to this forum but why cant you name the person? its clear what he did and naming names would help other collectors maybe getting ripped off!!

Hi paddywhack (same one as in the WAF forum? )

unfortunately, due to libel laws etc the owner of boards.ie have to be very careful with what can and cannot be posted in any of the fora and subfora. The militaria collecting forum is just one subforum and although I agree with you that collectors need to be protected and given as much informaytion as possible, we also have to protect the "home" of this subforum as well. In any case, it doesn't take too much time for the interested collector to find out about who the person/persons is/are. Morlar provided the link to the WAF thread and they are probably in a better position to deal with any potential libellous allegations. So, again, naming him/her in private messages is a different thing. Same as linking to another forum thread hosted on a US server.

I hope this clears this up a bit.

Dr Strange

kowloon wrote: »

I think he might have to be prosecuted for it first, otherwise he's not legally guilty of anything.

That is correct. Thanks kowloon.

paddywhack262

(yup thats me over there!!;)) but fair enough!! thanks for the !!!:)

Dr Strange

Welcome to the forum, paddywhack262!

No problem. I also sent you a pm.

Best,
P.

arnhem44

Does anyone know if anything else has happened since they closed the thread on the WAF forum,has the dagger been returned yet????

paddywhack262

no no news as of yet!!!if anything does happen im sure the thread will be updated!!!:)

arnhem44

paddywhack262 wrote: »

no no news as of yet!!!if anything does happen I'm sure the thread will be updated!!!:)

Thanks paddywhack262,it would be interesting to know what happens,as fellow collectors who know of the person involved shouldn't we be telling everyone who collects militaria about this man to protect people in the future,whats the difference between this forum and any other?there's still people out there buying this persons books and lining his pockets

Dr Strange

I am sorry I have to be very strict on this: there will be no mentioning of names of any person in a thread here in this forum if there is an on-going police or court investigation/case. This has nothing to do with the militaria forum rules. It is a boards.ie thing and we will have to respect that. Not long ago boards.ie had a drawn out court battle due to the libel laws. This is not going to happen here.

You can discuss the matter at hand and also link to news on the case whenever they happen. Naming of names may be different if the person has been officially convicted by a court. As it stands this is not the case. So please, everyone, refrain from naming persons directly in this thread who have not been found guilty by a court-of-law.

arnhem44

I respect that Preusse,rules are rules and thats fair enough,just annoying to see people doing these type of things to fellow collectors be they large or small in the collecting world.

Dr Strange

arnhem44 wrote: »

I respect that Preusse,rules are rules and thats fair enough,just annoying to see people doing these type of things to fellow collectors be they large or small in the collecting world.

I fully agree with you. It is just the difference of having a forum on an Irish server or U.S. server. We have to be very careful. But as I said, there is nothing to prevent us from linking to ongoing stories etc and the identity of the the guy who did this to his fellow collectors is just one click away.

Morlar

I think we should be able to name him but would respect the rules of here that apparently we can not. Everyone around the world who collects militaria will know who it is by now anyway - it has been the biggest scandal to hit militaria in recent years and is all over every web forums out there. I think it's a shame for a collector to fall from such a position of respect in the community to where he is now.

I remember asking him on another forum to put the pictures of his medal collection into a book - he said he was planning to. Then I recieved an email about a book he put together about Dutch only medals - I passed on it as it was expensive and too narrow a focus. Glad now that I did not go ahead and buy a copy. I think in years to come signed copies of his books might even be collected again (like waaaaaaaaay down the road) but it would be because of the notoriety of them and not for their content.

dr gonzo

I am a collector but not in german stuff(yet) and dont really know much about the online scene, can someone PM me with a little bit more detail on this because im incredibly intrigued and i feel for the real owner of that daggar?

Also i have absolutely no idea who everyones talking about and i dont want to inadvertently finance this guys attack on regular folk by buying a book of his.

Dr Strange

Hi dr gonzo. welcome to the militaria forum. Just follow Morlar's link below and you'll have some reading material on the topic to keep you occupied.

Morlar wrote: »

...
http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=398374

It basically tells how an american who had a third reich dagger posted pictures of it for an evaluation on a forum.

The accepted value on the thread was between $30,000 and $50,000.

He received several private messages saying 'nice dagger - but it's way over valued on the thread'. ...

dr gonzo

Yeh sorry about that, i must have skimmed right over it, reading it now. Phew 33 pages but my god this is disgraceful.

paddywhack262

just as an update looks liekt he seller got some of the money there today and hopefully the rest on monday! the buyer has ruined his reputation permanently from this!

kowloon

I wonder what it is about German militaria in particular that attracts so much dodgy dealing and fakes. You don't really see it as much in other areas.

danpatjoe

kowloon wrote: »

I wonder what it is about German militaria in particular that attracts so much dodgy dealing and fakes. You don't really see it as much in other areas.

GREED... plain and simple. :mad:

Much sought after items fetching very high prices are always a prime target for thieves / fakers etc.

paddywhack262

i do find it funny that when there is a good dealer people act surprised that he doesnt rip them off! only in this hobby would that happen!!!and yup greed is the main factor here!