[Heritage] Plans for Clare rail museum lodged

Victor

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/1203/1224259990172.html

Plans for Clare rail museum lodged
GORDON DEEGAN

PLANS HAVE been lodged for what was described yesterday as “Ireland’s largest road and rail museum” at Moyasta, west Clare.

The museum is to form part of the restored West Clare Railway attraction where visitors have trebled since the return of the 117- year-old Slieve Callan steam engine last August.

Announcing the plans yesterday, Jackie Whelan of the West Clare Railway said: “The museum will be the largest road and rail museum in the country.” Already, he said, he had taken delivery of five rail engines to be placed in the museum.

With the plans lodged with Clare County Council, Mr Whelan said he hoped construction of the museum will begin early in 2010.

Mr Whelan also announced plans to extend the restored West Clare Railway a further 2.5 miles next year.

He confirmed he is in negotiations with the National Roads Authority (NRA) on the rail line crossing the national secondary route between Kilrush and Kilkee.

The west Clare businessman said he plans to extend the rail line to Kilrush. He said: “There are a few objections to it, but we’re very hopeful.” Mr Whelan said yesterday that it was very important for west Clare’s tourism sector that the museum project would proceed.

Already, Mr Whelan has spent over €500,000 on the Slieve Callan engine in a 10-year restoration project.

The Slieve Callan powered the West Clare Railway between 1892 and 1952, before being exhibited on a plinth at Ennis railway station until 1996, when Mr Whelan in a daring raid took possession of it and brought it back to Moyasta to commence its restoration.

The government had closed the loss-making West Clare Railway in 1961. After the Slieve Callan’s first trip since restoration on the restored two miles of track last August, Mr Whelan told a crowd: “It is my intention while I am this side of the ground to extend the railway to the towns of Kilkee and Kilrush in west Clare.”

Cookie_Monster

1. Good - about feckin time

2. Hope he has the money to fund this

3. how on earth did it cost half a million to restore a single old loco? that's insane

Judgement Day

I would imagine that barring the frames, cylinders and wheels it is a new locomotive - hence the sky high price. While I welcome a museum of any sort I cannot imagine a more unsuitable and remote location. The sea air will play havoc with anything ferrous and the lack of visitors will make the project a financial nightmare. Cavan & Leitrim MkII with more money behind it but a nightmare in the making.

Run_to_da_hills

Judgement Day wrote: »

I would imagine that barring the frames, cylinders and wheels it is a new locomotive - hence the sky high price. While I welcome a museum of any sort I cannot imagine a more unsuitable and remote location. The sea air will play havoc with anything ferrous and the lack of visitors will make the project a financial nightmare. Cavan & Leitrim MkII with more money behind it but a nightmare in the making.

Firstly I welcome any move towards preserving our railway heritage.

I thought that they should have learned lessons from the Birr Telescope and rebuilt Lartique railway about remoteness. Could they not get somewhere closer to one of our main cities or even close to the Western Corridore which could become an invaluable section of track for running excursions when regular services flop.

dowlingm

If it was a few splashes of paint on a canvas, the Arts Council would find money as a national priority. It's time the National Museum was directed to find a site and build a transport museum to house both vehicles and other exhibits which chart the development of rail, road, air and sea.

No fecking decentralisation either - national museums should be in national capitals. Docklands post interconnector maybe, or Fairview if DART maintenance was moved out to the suburbs like Inchicore/Portlaoise. Broadstone might be an option but since LUAS is likely to assume the alignment bringing in exhibits by rail would be tricky.

At least with Fairview you have a bunch of exhibits to get started with - the Alstom DARTs!

Cookie_Monster

At least with Fairview you have a bunch of exhibits to get started with - the Alstom DARTs!

:D:D

You also have a prebuilt warehouse for storing all the stock indoors. Pity no-one in Gov gives a toss.:mad:

Judgement Day

Neither does the National Heritage Council. The Director of the National Museum (Pat Wallace) also sees no need for a National Transport Museum - it might threaten funds for his pet projects. IE's Heritage Office obviously see no need either or they would not be sitting on their fat arses! :mad:

Hungerford

dowlingm wrote: »

Broadstone might be an option but since LUAS is likely to assume the alignment bringing in exhibits by rail would be tricky

Not necessarily - it might be possible, even with the Luas alignment, to reopen a single track connection to Liffey Junction. Broadstone would actually be perfect if that was the case - historic setting, mainline connection and a Luas connection to city centre. It would be fantastic in terms of heritage train demos: you could run occasional specials up to Maynooth and back. Of course, CIE believe that it's best used as a fancy bus garage.

dowlingm

Isn't LUAS 1435mm? I suppose you could look at interlacing the track but that seems like a tricky proposition.

Judgement Day

Hungerford wrote: »

Not necessarily - it might be possible, even with the Luas alignment, to reopen a single track connection to Liffey Junction. Broadstone would actually be perfect if that was the case - historic setting, mainline connection and a Luas connection to city centre. It would be fantastic in terms of heritage train demos: you could run occasional specials up to Maynooth and back. Of course, CIE believe that it's best used as a fancy bus garage.

Broadstone has been suggested to different politicians over the last 30 years but guess what - no interest. Much better to leave a building of considerable architectural importance as a dirty old bus depot than to open it to the public as another tourist attaraction. It won't happen because the opposition politicians (FG and Labour) are equally devoid of vision as the present shower of criminals. :mad:

http://irelandposters.com/dublin/images/broadstone_railway_station.jpg

L1011

The Broadstone option is exactly how the Netherlands has done it - suburban, surplus to then requirements terminus in Utrecht (NS are based there although its not the capital) was converted in to the NS-museum.

DWCommuter

There's already a rail connected disused site for a national transport/rail museum. Its close to a large city and in a tourist hotspot. Theres also a reletively famous museum of a transport nature close by. Personally I think its worth a punt as it ticks some preliminary economic boxes already.

So guess.:D

Judgement Day

DW have you been at the Cooking Sherry again - unless, of course, you mean Inchicore Works or Heuston?

L1011

DWCommuter wrote: »

There's already a rail connected disused site for a national transport/rail museum. Its close to a large city and in a tourist hotspot. Theres also a reletively famous museum of a transport nature close by. Personally I think its worth a punt as it ticks some preliminary economic boxes already.

So guess.:D

Other than Inchicore.... not Whitehead surely?

My brother has two suggestions:
Westrail's old place in Tuam?
Foynes - near the flying boat museum there?

Cookie_Monster

Northwall?

Dun Laoghaire peir until recently :pac:

Victor

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Northwall?

Docklands.

Run_to_da_hills

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Northwall?

Dun Laoghaire Pier until recently :pac:

The old demolished mail boat pier would make a fine site. It would attract what ever tourists come to Dunlaoghaire after Sealink and HSS pull out. It would not take much to re run a branch connection into the Dart line again except it will now have to be done in the dark

So a news post about a private transport museum in County Clare turns into a discussion of what sites in Dublin would suit a public one because Clare is a backwater?

Very telling.

Run_to_da_hills

Deleted User wrote: »

So a news post about a private transport museum in County Clare turns into a discussion of what sites in Dublin would suit a public one because Clare is a backwater?

Very telling.

Moyasta is backwater, in fact it is in the ar*e end of nowhere.

So is lahinch, clifden, killary harbour, foynes, dingle, loop head, doolin, cong......should I keep going?

Run_to_da_hills

Deleted User wrote: »

So is lahinch, clifden, killary harbour, foynes, dingle, loop head, doolin, cong......should I keep going?

Anywhere that is not close proximity to a currently used national railway line is no where.

Personally If I was a rail enthusiast and had to rely on public transport the last thing I would want is to be stuck in a bus for hours trying to get to a rail museum. :rolleyes:

lord lucan

Deleted User wrote: »

So a news post about a private transport museum in County Clare turns into a discussion of what sites in Dublin would suit a public one because Clare is a backwater?

Very telling.

What's your problem? Do you want this thread locked too?

Cookie_Monster

Deleted User wrote: »

So a news post about a private transport museum in County Clare turns into a discussion of what sites in Dublin would suit a public one because Clare is a backwater?

Very telling.

Clare is a backwater in term of visiter nmber that wouold go there whereas if it wass in Dublin you'd get factors more visiter both purely to see the museum and if just generally a tourist in the area

lord lucan

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Clare is a backwater in term of visiter nmber that wouold go there whereas if it wass in Dublin you'd get factors more visiter both purely to see the museum and if just generally a tourist in the area

I'm a rail enthusiast and i'm delighted that these locos are getting a proper home and not left to rust outside Inchicore and Carrick-on-Suir. I'd love to visit them but getting to Moyasta from Dublin is awkward and will put off most people except the die-hard rail enthusiast. A museum nearer Dublin would capture both the rail enthusiast market as well as the regular tourist market and British rail enthusiast day tripper market.

Run_to_da_hills

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Clare is a backwater in term of visitor number that would go there whereas if it was in Dublin you'd get factors more visitor both purely to see the museum and if just generally a tourist in the area

With the mess they made of the cliffs of Moher and the exorbitant parking charges on the place I can't see many would want to go specifically to visit that part of the country. People go to Clare to enjoy the social life and not to travel to some cold, damp and windy rail museum in the middle of a bog.

lord lucan

lord lucan wrote: »

What's your problem? Do you want this thread locked too?

Nah, just get the feeling that the posts are very duberlin-centric, as if it was centre of the country or something....

Seriously, I thought that discussion of what Dublin should have really belongs in a thread of its own, that's all.

I think they're pitching it at the traditional hire-a-car "tour of ai-yur-leand" french/german/american tourists that make a point of going around the coastline i.e. it's be a stop on the way to the Aliwee caves or cliffs of Moher or something like that. Not pitched at locals.

For an aviation equivelent, ask at Weston how easy it would be to visit Foynes, or even Clifden (where Alcock & Brown landed).

lord lucan

Deleted User wrote: »

Nah, just get the feeling that the posts are very duberlin-centric, as if it was centre of the country or something....

Seriously, I thought that discussion of what Dublin should have really belongs in a thread of its own, that's all.

It's not Dublin-centric by design,just that naturally Dublin is the major point of entry for tourists to this country and that's what will be needed to keep a scheme like this afloat. The rail enthusiast market in this country is too small to sustain it alone,it'll need non-rail enthusiast tourism to balance the books and a remote location like Moyasta doesn't help it's cause.

Run_to_da_hills

Deleted User wrote: »

Nah, just get the feeling that the posts are very duberlin-centric, as if it was centre of the country or something....

Seriously, I thought that discussion of what Dublin should have really belongs in a thread of its own, that's all.

Dublin is where the all these locos operated and ran from and NOT West Clare where they used a 3 ft narrow gauge line along with their own unique locomotives.

Did you ever hear Percy French singing about the 121's 141's, 001's or the C class :rolleyes:

lord lucan

lord lucan wrote: »

It's not Dublin-centric by design,just that naturally Dublin is the major point of entry for tourists to this country and that's what will be needed to keep a scheme like this afloat. The rail enthusiast market in this country is too small to sustain it alone,it'll need non-rail enthusiast tourism to balance the books and a remote location like Moyasta doesn't help it's cause.

Well, it may be remote in transport terms, but in tourist site terms, well it is in close reach of some well established tourist places. If I remember right, as well as Foynes museum, there's Loop Head, the Tarbert ferry, Kilrush (which I think has its own museum), the Clare coastline with the Cliffs of Moher (rememeber, they're tourists), the Arann islands......

But, well, the only way we'll find out, is to see how the museum does. Best of luck to them.

lord lucan

Deleted User wrote: »

Well, it may be remote in transport terms, but in tourist site terms, well it is in close reach of some well established tourist places. If I remember right, as well as Foynes museum, there's Loop Head, the Tarbert ferry, Kilrush (which I think has its own museum), the Clare coastline with the Cliffs of Moher (rememeber, they're tourists), the Arann islands......

But, well, the only way we'll find out, is to see how the museum does. Best of luck to them.

I hope it works for them,i know i'll go down next year once the "better" weather comes around.

Hungerford

Deleted User wrote: »

Well, it may be remote in transport terms, but in tourist site terms, well it is in close reach of some well established tourist places.

The problem with all the locations you name is that none of them are close to an operational broad guage railway line.

I think that many of us would prefer a railway museum to be close to one because it facilitates stock transfers, demonstration runs etc.

I believe that many of us are suggesting locations in the Dublin region because there are suitable vacant sites there - some of which have considerable rail history.

Hungerford

lord lucan wrote: »

What's your problem? Do you want this thread locked too?

Whenever you think he's trolling, report him. That's what I am doing.

lord lucan

Hungerford wrote: »

The problem with all the locations you name is that none of them are close to an operational broad guage railway line.

I think that many of us would prefer a railway museum to be close to one because it facilitates stock transfers, demonstration runs etc.

I believe that many of us are suggesting locations in the Dublin region because there are suitable vacant sites there - some of which have considerable rail history.

A good example of that is the transport & folk museum at Cultra up north. I've been up there 3 times over the years,it's handy to get to,even from Dublin. Enterprise from Connolly to Belfast central,connect with a local Bangor train and hop off at Cultra. Short walk around the corner from the train station and you're at the museum. Whitehead,while not a museum but a working railway shed is easily accesible too.

Judgement Day

So is the railway scrapyard at Dromod - right across from the IE station.

DWCommuter

I'd recommend Foynes.

Technically its rail connected and the site and line is in state ownership. Having had a little involvement with a site survey a few years back, it ticked a lot of boxes for me from a purely commercial stand point. Any rail museum has to be able to generate money. It must not be a junk yard where enthusiasts can go for a gawk.

Having examined Foynes and given my opinion (incorporating the needs of preservationists) but based simply on economics, my recommendations were as follows; (all notes not to hand so based on memory)

1. Develop the Foynes railway site as a customer friendly museum, incorporating workshops for the RPSI and ITG.

2. Combine static exhibits with a working railway, incorporating AV displays, train simulators etc. Technology is key in attracting non rail enthusiasts.

3. Refurbish Ballinagrane station to include small exhibits, refreshment area and commercial shop.

4. Regular running of either steam or diesel hauled trains between Foynes and Ballinagrane station to compliment the museum.

5. The entire enterprise must be a commercially driven one that accomodates preservation, enthusiasts and the general public/tourists.

The area itself is located in a tourist hotspot. The museum could be rail connected from Limerick, while road access is already of a decent standard. The Flying boat museum compliments the venture. Involve county councils, chambers of commerce and tourism bodies in the initial presentation.

Of course my notes were compiled when the country was on the pigs back economically so the chances now are a lot slimmer than what was already slim in the good days.

Apart from money, the two key drawbacks were Foynes port management (rail freight) and CIE (dumb ignorant assholes who don't actually give a damn about anything.)

As someone who understands the general concept of documenting our history and presenting it on a commercial basis, (to be somewhat self generating) Foynes was way ahead of any site that I visited. But it would only work with state support unless wealthy benefactors were willing. (but at the time I was involved they all wanted to build apartments on the site!)

If you are ever down that way, have a look. Its ideal.

Judgement Day

Surprised I didn't think of Foynes in answer to your riddle as I had suggested it to the Irish Traction Group myself. I agree that it ticks many of the boxes - 'nearish' to a large town (Limerick), beside an existing transport museum, attractive terminal station (empty awaiting the attention of the village idiots), but again it is remote for the large numbers of visitors required to make it pay and the length of line (almost 26 miles to Limerick) is far too long. Somewhere adjacent to the Dublin/Cork line would be ideal but realistically the Greater Dublin area has to be the place but it will never happen. Later this week I will post a link to my correspondence with Minister John Gormley regarding the matter and this will show why you might as well save your breath for cooling your porridge!

Judgement Day

Link to YES/NO Minister correspondence: www.transportpreservationinireland.blogspot.com

dowlingm

A museum can be anywhere. A national museum - unless it commemorates a site-specific event or industry - should be in Greater Dublin.

Obviously, once the People's Republic achieves full independence, a new set of national museums will be constructed on Leeside, d'Opera House will become de National Opera House, etc... :D:D:D

dowlingm

dowlingm wrote: »

A national museum - unless it commemorates a site-specific event or industry - should be in Greater Dublin.

I'm sorry, but I can't agree. We need to move away from the Greater Dublin emphasis that this nation suffers from. I say look at the merits of each and every case, then make a decision. We should concentrate on spreading out the national resources around the country, so no part of the country can feel put out (if anything, that will spare the rest of us from the constant moaning :rolleyes: ).

I'd hope that any public museum location decision wouldn't be down to a constituency thing, but this being Ireland.... :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Anyways, this museum is a private venture. Like I said before, best of luck to them.

lord lucan

This is what i'd love to see here,imagine 121's/141's and a C class running around. This 039/A39(A class) which was restored by the ITG and loaned to the Downpatrick and County Down railway.

Judgement Day

Thanks for posting. Sadly there will be no standard gauge preserved line in the Republic - the boat has been missed here whatever certain people over on IRN seem to think. The Downpatrick people and the Irish Traction Group deserve congratulations on their work but I seriously fear for the future of equipment stored there. There have been a series of arson attacks at the Downpatrick Station site over the years and it's only a matter of time. To ward off the village idiots you have to have a 24 hour presence on the site - I know and I have the video and the T-shirt.

lostexpectation

should a transport msueum be static?

Cookie_Monster

lostexpectation wrote: »

should a transport msueum be static?

Yes and no.

The great majority of loco, carriage, busses, planes and whatnot at a proper transport museum should be static but if you can back it onto a preserved railway (or similar) I see no reason not to as it will attract further people