Solar Energy? Does it work... is it green?

DeVore

Hi there,

I have a little place in Malta (cos I couldnt afford a dog box in this country </rant>) where its nice and sunny and warm and perfect for solar energy.

Now, while I actually rather depressingly believe we are screwed as a species and this is the start of the "end times".... I'd also like to do my bit in case by some miracle we manage not to poison our own planet.

I've been looking into Solar Energy because I have a nice flat roof on the top of the building I'm in and can put panels there. But a few questions arise:

1. Is this still theoretical? Or has Solar Energy progressed to the point where it can provide enough energy to run a normal house from a reasonable surface area? (say, 6M x 3M?)

2. Is it green? I've heard a lot of things about how making the panels causes more CO2 production and harm then using them will ever save...

3. That the pricing is exorbitant.


Any info on these??

DeV.

Macha

DeVore wrote: »

I have a little place in Malta (cos I couldnt afford a dog box in this country </rant>) where its nice and sunny and warm and perfect for solar energy.

To be brutally honest, how often do you fly there per year?

DeVore wrote: »

1. Is this still theoretical? Or has Solar Energy progressed to the point where it can provide enough energy to run a normal house from a reasonable surface area? (say, 6M x 3M?)

Solar energy is a tried and tested technology but be aware that there are two types of solar energy suitable for domestic use:
1. Photovoltaic (for generating electricity)
2. Solar collectors (for heating water)

Which one are you interested in? Or is it both?

DeVore wrote: »

2. Is it green? I've heard a lot of things about how making the panels causes more CO2 production and harm then using them will ever save...

Efficiency depends on a number of factors but given that the property in question is in Malta, I would say it is worth it both environmentally and economically.

DeVore wrote: »

3. That the pricing is exorbitant.

It looks like they have some support schemes in place:

http://www.mra.org.mt/support%20schemes.shtml

DeVore

Awesome info taconnol...

Hands up: I didnt realise that international flight was such a massive issue until I recently watched "the age of stupid" and felt... well, stupid.

I'm not a "green nut" but I try to live a sustainable life. I do however, fly quite a bit. I probably take 3 flights a year to Malta for example.

In my own defence, I had thought that the fact that I dont drive a car (and havent for all of my life) might mitigate that, but I'm thinking probably not now... :(


To answer your questions, its photovoltaic energy I'm looking at. Though I have noticed a few places with solar water heaters, I hadnt seen any with solar panels.

DeV.

Macha

DeVore wrote: »

I'm not a "green nut" but I try to live a sustainable life. I do however, fly quite a bit. I probably take 3 flights a year to Malta for example.

Ah, I'm not going to beat you over the head with the guilty stick! Personal transport, food, waste, consumption, lights - these are all factors, not just air travel. Personally, I feel the fact that we live on an island makes things more than a little difficult. If I lived in Paris or Berlin I could just jump on a train...well maybe not to Malta

DeVore wrote: »

To answer your questions, its photovoltaic energy I'm looking at. Though I have noticed a few places with solar water heaters, I hadnt seen any with solar panels.

To be honest, I don't know that much about individual PV installations (international regulations? yes. actual practical stuff? nah.)

SEI have this database (includes PV and collectors) that you might find useful:

http://www.sei.ie/Your_Building/BER/BER_Assessors/Technical/HARP_Database/Solar/

You will probably find quite similar models available in Malta as most are manufactured in places like Austria.

Also, have a look or ask some questions in this forum:

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=1041

Make sure you figure out what your payback time is for your installation (ie how long before you recoup your costs) - it's key to making it a wise economic choice.

A few Maltese regs you might be interested in:
- there is a 5-15% reduction in VAT on solar systems
- there is a feed in tariff of 46.6€/MWh. ie, you may be able to sell excess electricity back into the grid when you're not using it (could be good for weeks when the house is unoccupied).

DeVore

Can I ask you where you found the "Feed in" tariff info? I know a few people who have been looking for that and failed to find it!

(Some days I'm really really glad we started boards )

DeV.

Macha

DeVore wrote: »

Can I ask you where you found the "Feed in" tariff info? I know a few people who have been looking for that and failed to find it!

Ok it's a bit of a pain because the DG for Energy have messed up their website somehow but they do have renewable energy fact sheets for each member state. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a link to the index so you just have to look for each country separately like so:

http://www.google.be/search?q=fact+sheets&as_sitesearch=ec.europa.eu/energy&hl=en

And then Malta's is here:

http://ec.europa.eu/energy/energy_policy/doc/factsheets/renewables/renewables_mt_en.pdf

Now, I've just noticed that this doc dates from Jan 2007 (phooey) so I will look for a more up-to-date source. Aha! Found it:

http://www.enemalta.com.mt/page.asp?p=965&l=1

The price you get looks like €0.0699 per unit.

And tariffs for connection are here:

http://www.enemalta.com.mt/page.asp?p=995&l=1

It looks like Malta hasn't unbundled grid from utility yet and Enemalta are running everything

I also know that Malta has signed up to transforming its grid into a smart grid so all electricity & water meters should be replaced by smart meters by 2012. Might be worth calling up your utility companies to ask them when you should be getting yours.

Edit: actually here is the installation schedule, well for November 09..I assume they will update the page:

http://www.enemalta.com.mt/page.asp?p=1065&l=1

Also, I know it sounds counter-intuitive but insulation is very important, even in hot countries (just think of your fridge insulation keeping the cold in) so if your property is old or not well built, insulation is probably THE most cost-effective way to reduce energy costs & related emissions.

DeVore wrote: »

(Some days I'm really really glad we started boards )

It has saved many a relationship as people get to pour out all their nerdiness into one space

ConsiderThis

DeVore wrote: »

Awesome info taconnol...

Hands up: I didnt realise that international flight was such a massive issue until I recently watched "the age of stupid" and felt... well, stupid.

I'm not a "green nut" but I try to live a sustainable life. I do however, fly quite a bit. I probably take 3 flights a year to Malta for example.

In my own defence, I had thought that the fact that I dont drive a car (and havent for all of my life) might mitigate that, but I'm thinking probably not now... :(


To answer your questions, its photovoltaic energy I'm looking at. Though I have noticed a few places with solar water heaters, I hadnt seen any with solar panels.

DeV.

Solar energy is great for heating water, but not very good at powering your TV set or for relying on for lamps or for keeping your deep freeze frozen. Obviously, the fluctuating nature of the output and the inability to store electricity effectively, means that its a good additional source, but not a good primary source.

cnocbui

I wouldn't bother with solar energy while you have to fly to and from your property.

One flight would probably generate a lot more CO2 than a large array of Solar photovoltaic panels would ever manage to offset over their lifespan.

I am not being judgmental or critical as I do not subscribe to the AGW hypothesis.

figs

DeVore wrote: »

To answer your questions, its photovoltaic energy I'm looking at. Though I have noticed a few places with solar water heaters, I hadnt seen any with solar panels.

The biggest obstacle to PV implementation has been the cost, and traditionally paybacks on your investment are typically 20 yrs. In comparison, Solar collectors have a payback of 5 to 6 yrs (for a typical domestic installation).

There are a few factors which are now making PV more attractive. The most significant is the PV technology is changing, and the cost of production is coming down. Some reasons are outlined here:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/02/090219152130.htm

http://www.solarbuzz.com/ModulePrices.htm

PV pannels are currently costed at about €4500 / kW (uninstalled) - to put it in perspective, a kettle uses about 3kW, so you need to spend (approx) about €13k on panels, €6k on equipment (batteries/inverter/distribution boards/swtches, etc) & probably €1.5k installation, to have a system useful enough to service a basis load.

On the plus side, manufacturers like Nanosolar are producing "thin-film" technology which is significantly driving down the costs, and making PV much more affordable.

From what taconnol is saying, contributions for feed-in in Malta make it more attractive, particularly if you're not there a lot. If grants for installation are available, this will also help.

My two cents worth... I think that grid electricity is going to continue to fall / remain at same price over the coming two years. A low electricity price only extends the payback of PV. In time, PV technology should continue to improve and become more affordable. I think it would be a better "financial" proposition in a couple of years time.

Macha

ConsiderThis wrote: »

Solar energy is great for heating water, but not very good at powering your TV set or for relying on for lamps or for keeping your deep freeze frozen. Obviously, the fluctuating nature of the output and the inability to store electricity effectively, means that its a good additional source, but not a good primary source.

Of course PV has a variable output and would not be used as a primary source but the OP's residence is connected to the grid and would continue to be so with a PV installation.

That is not a reason to not invest in small-scale PV, especially in a country like Malta.

And of course the energy saved will be minimal compared to flights to/from but if the OP is going to make the flights regardless, then again, it isn't an argument not to go for a PV installation.

figs - costs are always going to come down but it's like buying a computer. At some stage you just have to go for it. Rebates and feed-in tariffs also fluctate and if governments feel that PV installations are competitively priced by the market, these incentives may be removed.

Capt'n Midnight

carbon credits or plant trees to offset flights if you are worried

use solar to heat water is a no-brainer in a sunny clime

photovoltaic , this would need backup batteries to provide power at night
if you are only there a few times a year then how often will the backup batteries get used , like car batteries ( even if you never drive I'm sure you've heard about problems with them ) they have a finite life, like UPS batteries (which they are) they will die sooner if constantly overcharged

In Ireland it's probably greener to buy airtricity than install your own photovolatic panels , not sure what the options in malta are. Standing charge is the biggie if only there infrequently


If you do go down the photovoltaic route then spending a lot on replacing TV's and Laptops stuff with lower powered ones probably works out the same as paying for more panels and backup batteries


then again 7c per unit and with you not there most of the year they should pay for them selves eventually

ConsiderThis

cnocbui wrote: »

I wouldn't bother with solar energy while you have to fly to and from your property.

One flight would probably generate a lot more CO2 than a large array of Solar photovoltaic panels would ever manage to offset over their lifespan.

I am not being judgmental or critical as I do not subscribe to the AGW hypothesis.

Surely, as planes fly to Malta anyhow, the marginal cost in emissions of the OP flying to Malta is pretty small.

What is the difference in emissions of a jetliner flying to malts with an extra, say, 70kgs on board or not?

What saving on emissions is likely to be saved from solar panels on the roof of a house in Malta if it means the immersion water heater is not used?

ConsiderThis

cnocbui wrote: »

I wouldn't bother with solar energy while you have to fly to and from your property.

One flight would probably generate a lot more CO2 than a large array of Solar photovoltaic panels would ever manage to offset over their lifespan.

I am not being judgmental or critical as I do not subscribe to the AGW hypothesis.

... it appears you are judging that you are not being judgemental!

Mahatma coat

I use PV Solar panels on ourProperties in the Bush, this is because we are on the wrong side of a huge Stateforest ands cant get connected to the Grid

I have 3 Racks of Panels so that s about 9X12 M all told, this links up to over 50 Batteries, (2 types in a clever setup, one bank of 12v and a bank of 2V for current)

on a good sunny DAY ( in Sub Tropical Australia), I can power the Fridge the Fax machine and my Laptop.
if I want to do anything useful about the place I have to fire up one of my generators, usually a Lister 2cyl.

Solar is an expensive gimmick at the moment IMO, if theres any sort of breeze there at all y'd be better off puttin on one of those wind turbines with the helical fan.






Oh another little thing that I found which is a godsend for people in my situation

LED Lamps that run on the Phone lines


Yes ODd as it is we have a phone but no power, apparently no one gave a sh1t when they putr in the phone lines but the Aquarius festival happened before rural electricfication, Fuppin Stoner Hippies Grrrrr

quentingargan

Pity that feed in tariff of 46c per Kw Hr isn't happening. In some countries such as Spain, they have had this sort of feed-in tariff for commercial PV plants (of up to 100Kw) but not for domestic producers. At 45c in Spain, PVs are very viable, but they recently reduced the tariff for new installations to 31c and many installers are finding it hard to get the funding at that price.

If you want to know roughly what a panel will produce in Malta, there is a very good utility from Retscreen in Canada (free) which you can use to assess annual output from a solar PV in most regions.