Outhalf and Loosehead for 6 Nations

Ulster1999

Well gents, this autumn we have seen two major changes in the Irish squad. One due to form and one due to injury. The question is now, Who do you want to see starting in the 6N?

I'm going with Sexton and Horan (with Healy to play against Scotland and Italy) Italian scrum might destroy him but at least it shouldn't be a match decider

corny

O'Gara and Healy

That will all depend on form closer to the time. You'd have to expect ROG to pull his socks up and work hard to reclaim his place.

Risteard

Sexton and Horan

Sexton and Healy.

Horan will be back in January I think. But I don't know if he's even allowed train until then, he might just be taking it easy at the moment. So even if he is back in January he mighn't be match fir for 6 Nations.

NotWormBoy

Also recall Sexton will be coming back from injury too what with his broken fingers. I'd not be surprised to see ROG in for most of the 6N, hopefully he improves his form due to the proximity of Sexton, ala Stringer with Reddan.

Legion2008

Can't vote on this until at least january, too many unknowns, Horan is injured and we don't have an eta on when he's back, this might rule him out completely from the 6 nations, I hope not, but at this stage we can't say for definite.

On present form I'd have Sexton in ahead of O'Gara, that said Sexton is going to miss the next four weeks so his form could slip, I hope not for Leinsters sake as he'll be needed for the big heiniken cups games in jan

premierstone

Impossible to say at the moment a lot of Rugby to be played in the interim and two of the 4 are currently injured.

spear thrower

O'Gara and Horan

Ive went for ROG and Healy for a couple of reasons..

1) So Johnny doesnt get cocky and arrogant thinking he has the no. 10 shirt.. he still has alot to learn and he could learn that from an inform O Gara..

2) I feel ROG will certainly step it up over the next 8/9 weeks and Johnny is missing for half of that so there could be a swing in form and fortune..

3) I think Healy has the potential to be an awsome rugby player his running with ball in hand is phenomonal for such a heavy guy.. The only way he will get better at scrummaging is by doing it against europes best so i would put him in in the first game against the Azzuri..

danthefan

Sexton and Horan

I'd go for Sexton and Healy, though if Horan came back in I could live with it, he had a good 6N last year and probably that much more experienced when it comes to the scrums.

Sexton all the way now at 10, he's proved he's up to it.

Otacon

Sexton and Horan

danthefan wrote: »

I'd go for Sexton and Healy, though if Horan came back in I could live with it, he had a good 6N last year and probably that much more experienced when it comes to the scrums.

Sexton all the way now at 10, he's proved he's up to it.

While I voted the same way, with Sexton out injured, I would assume ROG is going to become the favourite. You know he is going to pick up his game now. In either case, no loss IMO.

Healy seems to be in the lead in the other race. Unless Horan can start impressing again, I don't see that changing.

premierstone

Isnt it a great problem to have, happy days indeed and off course theres the selection at 12 aswell, personally at 12 I think it depends on who's at 10, my pereference at 12 is Wallace but if ROG is at 10 I would not be comfortable with the 10-12 axis defensively and would prefer Rog- Darcy, whereas if Sexton is at 10 I would prefer Wallace at 12.

subfreq

Sexton and Horan

With Sexton having a month out he's early 2010 form will probably be the decider. He's in pole position but has to hit the ground running again once the hand heals. It will be very interesting to see how ROG bounces back for Munster.

Healy now needs to knuckle down in the scrum and really make some improvement there because he will be a priority target for opposing 6N teams. Nice to know that whoever starts we have a very capable sub on the bench now.

Really want to see who gets the sub position at tighthead. It's Ireland's only glaring worry at the moment.

nosco

Personally I'd like to see Sexton but isn't looking very likely at this stage. Did nobody see Kidney's post match comments? ROG is his outhalf.

eoferrall

Sexton and Horan

Voted for Sexton and Healy, on current form, BUT 6 nations is a couple of months away and a lot can happen regarding player form etc.

Also I would be of the opinion it is not cut and dried, I would like the two best playing whichever it is. What we do not need is sexton becoming the only OH for ireland like under O'Gara... swtiching them about with which is in better form or suits the opposition/fatigue etc would be better than saying "sexton" for 6 nations and O'gara sit and watch unless theres an injury.

premierstone

nosco wrote: »

Personally I'd like to see Sexton but isn't looking very likely at this stage. Did nobody see Kidney's post match comments? ROG is his outhalf.

Dont read too much into Kidney's interviews he likes to give the party lines and never really reveals what he;s actually thinking or planning and quite rightly too.

stephen_n

TBH Either or in both cases won't make very much difference, your talking about rising stars against experience and there are pro's and con's for both selections. I would imagine it will be ROG and Healy to Start as Horan will not be fully fit after such a long lay off and ROG is still the big match 10 at the moment wouldn't expect any of them to stay on for 80 minutes though!

Podge_irl

It really depends on how Horan comes back from his injury and whether Hayes improves his scrummaging with some game time. Horan is possibly the better scrummager of the two at the moment, though I think Healy will ultimately be better. I'm not really bothered which of Horan or Healy starts (assuming Horan comes back well), the only downside is that neither is really a viable bench player.

I'd say Sexton will start, especially considering the first game is against Italy. I'll retain the option to revise that closer to the time though.

Tmeos

Obviously it depends on form and fitness but my first choice would be ROG and Horan with Sexton and Healy to build on their experience against some of the weaker sides.

bamboozle

Sexton and Horan

if Horan is fit i might start him in 2 games and Healy in 3, in my mind there is no doubt who is the better player but the smartest way to blood Healy is to ease him in slowly.
Healy's held his own up in the Leinster scrum enough times to suggest Ireland's weaknesses in the AI's at scrum time are not down to him.

ROG now has 2 HC games to prove his worth to the Irish jersey, hopefully the presence of Sexton will see him up his game.

Webbs

Sexton on current form is streets ahead of ROG but that can all change with ROG playing in the HC and Sexton sidelined.
As for the loosehead its the lesser of 2 evils I guess, and will depend on the opposition, Gert Smal has an awful lot of work too make Healy a reasonable scrummager and it could come back to bite Ireland if he doesnt. Until he straightens his back at engagemnet he will continue to get his ass handed to him on a plate by the opposition props and no amount of work in the loose will overcome this failing

PhatPiggins

bamboozle wrote: »

if Horan is fit i might start him in 2 games and Healy in 3, in my mind there is no doubt who is the better player but the smartest way to blood Healy is to ease him in slowly.
Healy's held his own up in the Leinster scrum enough times to suggest Ireland's weaknesses in the AI's at scrum time are not down to him.

ROG now has 2 HC games to prove his worth to the Irish jersey, hopefully the presence of Sexton will see him up his game.

I dont agree I think that when not playing in a dominant scrum Healy has been exposed, we saw similar stuff in the Churchill cup. I highlighted before the game that he's previous outings against BJ Botha in the ML would have no bearing as he was part of Leinsters excellent tight 5 where as Botha is part of the light weight Ulster 5.

I think one thing that has become clear is that Horan is a better scrumager then he's been given credit for.

Wookster76

Sexton and Horan

With regard to ROG and Sexton both class players without a doubt, Ronan has the experience over Sexton but the one thing I think has plagued him his entire career.. is his size.. The opposition always looks to expose the 10 channel when he plays.. I havent see that so much with Sexton

redmca

Great to have these choices.
Is it just me, or are the team and the management already prioritising our preparations for the World Cup in 2011?
Now that we have won a grand slam (at last) I would support the management doing like England pre-2003 and France on a regular basis of sacrificing some of their prospects in the 6N for the bigger ultimate prize.
On that basis, we should pick & mix as much as possible over the next few years to create greater depth. While our 1st XV has been at or near the top of the European nations, previous world cups have shown up our shallowness on the bench.

daveyrovers

Sexton and Horan

I think things have worked out very well for Kidney. With Sexton been out for 4 weeks and only coming back early January ROG has time to make his case.

I was one of the ones pushing big time for Sexton (well anyone except ROG to be honest). I know ROG says he didn't like it when it was him one week and Humphs the next and he's a confidence player blah blah blah. Fact is ROG never played as well for Ireland when there was a battle for the jersey. First Six Nations game is a long time away but all things been equal I would start ROG for the first game. I expect in the next couple of games for Munster we will see a better ROG.

Podge_irl

redmca wrote: »

Great to have these choices.
Is it just me, or are the team and the management already prioritising our preparations for the World Cup in 2011?
Now that we have won a grand slam (at last) I would support the management doing like England pre-2003 and France on a regular basis of sacrificing some of their prospects in the 6N for the bigger ultimate prize.
On that basis, we should pick & mix as much as possible over the next few years to create greater depth. While our 1st XV has been at or near the top of the European nations, previous world cups have shown up our shallowness on the bench.

1 Slam in 60 years and 1 championship in 25 and you'd be happy for them to sacrifice a chance to win another? I certainly wouldn't. It depends to some degree on what you mean by pick & mix. Would I be happy to see the likes of Sexton, Healy, O'Brien and Earls (and quite frankly anyone at tighthead) get more game time? Yeah. Would I wanna see the likes of Toner, McFadden, Ronan, Falloon get game time? Not really.

chupacabra

Sexton and Horan

Who ever are the form players of course!

But i chose Healy and Sexton simply because they need the experience at international level.

Podge_irl wrote: »

1 Slam in 60 years and 1 championship in 25 and you'd be happy for them to sacrifice a chance to win another? I certainly wouldn't. It depends to some degree on what you mean by pick & mix. Would I be happy to see the likes of Sexton, Healy, O'Brien and Earls (and quite frankly anyone at tighthead) get more game time? Yeah. Would I wanna see the likes of Toner, McFadden, Ronan, Falloon get game time? Not really.

To be honest, the idea that by selecting Healy and Sexton we are "sacrificing" a chance to win the six nations is ridiculous and something that is talked about way too much by the media. We have just as much chance, if not MORE of a chance at winning another Slam with these players.

Podge_irl

chupacabra wrote: »

To be honest, the idea that by selecting Healy and Sexton we are "sacrificing" a chance to win the six nations is ridiculous and something that is talked about way too much by the media. We have just as much chance, if not MORE of a chance at winning another Slam with these players.

I agree completely, and its one of the reasons why I thought some of the arguments about taking a risk with players in the lead up to the AIs were silly.

I don't think we should "risk" any players in the 6N, I think we should only play those who have proven they are good players at sub international level. There is a possibility to rotation amongst players of a similar level (lets say Healy and Horan for the time being) but I wouldn't go throwing in players like McFadden.

WeeBushy

Sexton and Horan

I voted for Sexton and Healy purely on recent happening but it's waaaay too early to be talking about it now imo. There's a lot of rugby to be played between now and then.

anonymous_joe

Horses for courses anyone?

It's too early to know for sure.

My gut reaction would be Sexton and Healy, but guess who I support. :pac:

sock puppet

Tmeos wrote: »

Obviously it depends on form and fitness but my first choice would be ROG and Horan with Sexton and Healy to build on their experience against some of the weaker sides.

When it comes to front row play, we're the only weak side though. I'd go for Healy to start most of the games as unlike Sexton, he can't be put on the bench.

Colm_OReilly

Really depends on how the HEC goes. In the interests of building a squad and all that I don't think it will be strictly either/or.

phog

I've no striong views either way but as we're unlikely to win a WC then the 6Ns is the next best trophy for Ireland and with that in mind it's not the time for squad development, that's what summer tours, AIs and Ireland A matches are for.

Kidney must pick the team that he feels will win the game for us.

davyjose

O'Gara and Horan

As a Leinster fan, I picked O'Gara-Healy: I don't think O'Gara has done enough to be permanently dropped. I think he'll start and as of today I think he should start. But this could be his last year as our 10.

As for Horan/Healy. I'm sorry but Healy is substantially better than Horan. Horan isn't near his best, Healy is the future, and Healy is better than Horan was at his best, already. Slam-dunk.

Podge_irl

davyjose wrote: »

As a Leinster fan, I picked O'Gara-Healy: I don't think O'Gara has done enough to be permanently dropped. I think he'll start and as of today I think he should start. But this could be his last year as our 10.

As for Horan/Healy. I'm sorry but Healy is substantially better than Horan. Horan isn't near his best, Healy is the future, and Healy is better than Horan was at his best, already. Slam-dunk.

By the same criteria, Sexton is currently, at worst, as good as O'Gara and therefore should start. I'm perfectly willing to revise this opinions if form changes before the 6N, especially considering Sexton will be out for a while, but Sexton was as good as ROG during the AI, meaning, considering his age, he should start in the 6N.

I don't think the gap between Horan and Healy is anywhere near the gap between ROG and Sexton. Horan has become a pretty good scrummager (or at least he had pre-injury). Healy contributes more around the field sure, but Horan definitely still has the edge come scrumtime. It's an edge that has taken him 10 years to earn, so in that sense Healy may be the better bet, but I'd be happy enough with them getting 50/50 starts. Alas, neither is a bench option.

danthefan

Sexton and Horan

davyjose wrote: »

As a Leinster fan, I picked O'Gara-Healy: I don't think O'Gara has done enough to be permanently dropped. I think he'll start and as of today I think he should start. But this could be his last year as our 10.

As for Horan/Healy. I'm sorry but Healy is substantially better than Horan. Horan isn't near his best, Healy is the future, and Healy is better than Horan was at his best, already. Slam-dunk.

It's more a case of has Sexton done enough to start. For me the answer is a clear yes.

WeeBushy

Sexton and Horan

danthefan wrote: »

It's more a case of has Sexton done enough to start. For me the answer is a clear yes.

But maybe Sexton will have a serious drop of form over the next few months and O'Gara will roll back the years and turn it on.

If the 6N were starting on Saturday then I'd definitely go with Sexton/Healy but its not for months yet so it's a bit pointless talking about who should start imo. So much rugby still to be played.

Webbs

davyjose wrote: »

As for Horan/Healy. I'm sorry but Healy is substantially better than Horan. Horan isn't near his best, Healy is the future, and Healy is better than Horan was at his best, already. Slam-dunk.

Horan is a canny operator in the scrum, making the most of his limitations, he always made the Irish scrum a difficult one to really push around. Whilst around the field I dont think Horan offered a huge amount, was Ok but nothing outstanding.
Healy is the opposite, he is technically a poor scrummager and doesnt have the nous yet to figure out his opponents and as a result the Irish scrum is suffering, time will help here but I think he should be coming off the bench to provide dynamism against tiring teams and his scrummaging shortfalls would not be as exposed

dinhanoi

O'Gara and Horan

Cian Healy will be an exceptional Player, the future style front row, which Keith Wood and to a lesser extent Flannery are also.

However, Horan began his career in similar style, Fast loose forward, but has developed into a solid all round performer as he has gotten older. One must remember, Front Row forwards peak in their early Thirties, so Cian has a huge future.
Who starts depends on Injuries and Horans Recovery. I'll back Healy at the moment, and would love to have a getting fit horan on the bench. World Cup 2011 is the goal

as for outhalf, its sexton's to loose, his finger injury will not help. ROG needs to pick up his gaem to start. Great siuation for ireland

danthefan

Sexton and Horan

dinhanoi wrote: »

Cian Healy will be an exceptional Player, the future style front row, which Keith Wood and to a lesser extent Flannery are also.

However, Horan began his career in similar style, Fast loose forward, but has developed into a solid all round performer as he has gotten older. One must remember, Front Row forwards peak in their early Thirties, so Cian has a huge future.
Who starts depends on Injuries and Horans Recovery. I'll back Healy at the moment, and would love to have a getting fit horan on the bench. World Cup 2011 is the goal

as for outhalf, its sexton's to loose, his finger injury will not help. ROG needs to pick up his gaem to start. Great siuation for ireland

Healy and Horan both in the 22 is a non-runner, we'd have no cover for Hayes as neither have played TH.

If Horan gets back to fitness and form I suspect both players will get starts in the 6N, which would be fair. Horan doesn't deserve to be jettisoned after his performances for Ireland last season.

Ciaran-Irl

O'Gara and Horan

danthefan wrote: »

Healy and Horan both in the 22 is a non-runner, we'd have no cover for Hayes as neither have played TH.

If Horan gets back to fitness and form I suspect both players will get starts in the 6N, which would be fair. Horan doesn't deserve to be jettisoned after his performances for Ireland last season.

Does anyone know if there is a possibility they might introduce the extra prop on the bench rule for the 6 Nations?

Otacon

Sexton and Horan

Ciaran-Irl wrote: »

Does anyone know if there is a possibility they might introduce the extra prop on the bench rule for the 6 Nations?

If they were going to, surely they would have announced it already? Could be wrong.

jamser89

O'Gara and Healy

Ulster1999 wrote: »

Well gents, this autumn we have seen two major changes in the Irish squad. One due to form and one due to injury. The question is now, Who do you want to see starting in the 6N?

I'm going with Sexton and Horan (with Healy to play against Scotland and Italy) Italian scrum might destroy him but at least it shouldn't be a match decider

I agree that Horan should be recalled providing he's fully fit and that Healy should be given the opportunity against the "weaker" nations.

thomond2006

Sexton and Horan

jamser89 wrote: »

I agree that Horan should be recalled providing he's fully fit and that Healy should be given the opportunity against the "weaker" nations.

Don't agree with this. Sounds like something EOS would do.

If a guy is good enough, you go with him. Healy is a better option than Horan.

Sexton and Horan

The big call that needs to be made is on tighthead prop.Johns Hayes was the reason for the poor scrum last time and for all his great lineout lifting we need a new th prop.

The only 2 credible options are Mike Ross and Tom court,Tony Buckley is a great player,off loader but his scrummaging is just too poor at this level.

Tom Court and Mike Ross are both journeymen but Mike Ross has been the best tighthead in the GP last year.His scrummaging is extremely good but his work in the loose could improve.

From listening to Les Kiss on Ruggamatrix this week it sounds like Mike Ross is their man but they want him to lean up a bit and increase his workrate.

Hopefully for Irelands sake he does that because John hayes cannot go on.

anonymous_joe

Alani Tangy Cowhide wrote: »

The big call that needs to be made is on tighthead prop.Johns Hayes was the reason for the poor scrum last time and for all his great lineout lifting we need a new th prop.

The only 2 credible options are Mike Ross and Tom court,Tony Buckley is a great player,off loader but his scrummaging is just too poor at this level.

Tom Court and Mike Ross are both journeymen but Mike Ross has been the best tighthead in the GP last year.His scrummaging is extremely good but his work in the loose could improve.

From listening to Les Kiss on Ruggamatrix this week it sounds like Mike Ross is their man but they want him to lean up a bit and increase his workrate.

Hopefully for Irelands sake he does that because John hayes cannot go on.

This is what gets me.

He's clearly very good, but at the same time, it's not quite showing at the moment.

Leinster have CJ and Mike Ross and yet both are fairly muck lately. It's irritating.

anonymous_joe

Sexton and Horan

anonymous_joe wrote: »

This is what gets me.

He's clearly very good, but at the same time, it's not quite showing at the moment.

Leinster have CJ and Mike Ross and yet both are fairly muck lately. It's irritating.

I have been watching closely what he does recently.He is a serious operator in the scrum,hes the best scrummaging prop Ireland have available bar none.

His workrate in the loose needs to be greater and that will come with time.Quins clearly fed him muck because he has lost a load of weight already,so more gym work will be needed to put muscle back on now.

I would imagine around six nations time we will see some good stuff from Ross in a leinster shirt.

anonymous_joe

Alani Tangy Cowhide wrote: »

I have been watching closely what he does recently.He is a serious operator in the scrum,hes the best scrummaging prop Ireland have available bar none.

His workrate in the loose needs to be greater and that will come with time.Quins clearly fed him muck because he has lost a load of weight already,so more gym work will be needed to put muscle back on now.

I would imagine around six nations time we will see some good stuff from Ross in a leinster shirt.

So I'm hoping. Any Irish lad who can manage to turn himself into the best tighthead in the GP without anyone here noticing is fairly impressive after all. :pac:

7mountpleasant

Alani Tangy Cowhide wrote: »

I have been watching closely what he does recently.He is a serious operator in the scrum,hes the best scrummaging prop Ireland have available bar none.

His workrate in the loose needs to be greater and that will come with time.Quins clearly fed him muck because he has lost a load of weight already,so more gym work will be needed to put muscle back on now.

I would imagine around six nations time we will see some good stuff from Ross in a leinster shirt.

Oh really
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055498438

7mountpleasant

Sexton and Horan

7mountpleasant wrote: »

Oh really
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055498438

Well done for digging it up.

Well he was defo fat anyway but after seeing more of him he is a good player.The mentioning of covering both sides of the crum is also valid.He is not a bench option cause he only cover th,so he would need to usurp Hayes and start for us to see him.