What are our democractic options now?

Dannyboy83

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/cowen-caves-in-on-public-sector-pay-1960583.html

Brian Coward has washed his hands of us.
What are our democratic options now?
Public Sector workers were able to go on strike to pressure the government.

So what can we do now to make our voices heard?

jank

Do you honestly believe they care about people who are not going to vote for them anyway? FF and the Public Sector have always been closer than 2 peas in a pod. This is about saving FF not about saving the country.

Dannyboy83

jank wrote: »

Do you honestly believe they care about people who are not going to vote for them anyway? FF and the Public Sector have always been closer than 2 peas in a pod. This is about saving FF not about saving the country.

I know that. I'm asking, what can we do now?
Brian Cowen is running the country like a dictator.

Only a few years ago, there were riots over a few Orangemen in Dublin.
This is the fate of the entire country.

SLUSK

Well in normal countries there would be riots.

jank

Start writing letters and emails to Strasbourg and the IMF, pleading with them to come in and take us over. Get them to throw the banana out of the republic.

JonathanAnon

jank wrote: »

Start writing letters and emails to Strasbourg and the IMF, pleading with them to come in and take us over. Get them to throw the banana out of the republic.

Would probably be better for anybody in the private sector at this stage if they did? The present government are pandering to the public service unions (agents) just like Bertie did. There is a severe deficiency of moral courage at the cabinet table. I think maybe Harney would be the only one who would have the balls to enforce the required pay/staff cuts to get the 1.3Bn

SARZY

Seems to me there are 2 choices.

Riots and demonstrations, like our fellow Republic in France, where the people understand that the Republic is there to serve the common good, and the people sometimes have to revolt in order to make the rulers see sense.
We dont have any tradition of this here as for the most part we are a Republic only in name and the recent events about the Catholic church report and the Taoiseachs reluctance to upset them, goes some way to prove that.

Wait for a General Election and change the governing parties. Only problem is that we cant influence the timing of this, as our Republic is constituted to allow government to serve with majority support in the parliament for a given term.And we know from experience, Bertie etc, that these politicans of a particular hue are not influenced by any moral courage or any sense of duty to the Republic or its people.

So, we are basically ****ed.

hallelujajordan

It's very disappointing and there is little we can do given that the unions seem to only recognise and represent the minority of their membership (More than two thirds of Union members work in the private sector) . .

It also tells you something about the unions and the public sector workers that they are willing to sacrifice service levels and (in the case of the HSE) putting lives at risk, in order to protect their own interests. .

If there is scope to give everyone two weeks unpaid leave then why the hell are we not just reducing the size of the public sector and saving this money permanently rather than temporarily. .

This is even worse than the paid leave of absence deal they did last year.

What can we do ? First plane outta here !

Martin 2

I suppose we could call/visit our local FF representatives in case they don't realise how annoyed and disappointed many people are with this deal, if there's any wriggle room in the deal it can still be exploited.

If the OP hadn't specified democratic means I was going to suggest a coup d'etat:)

Darragh29

I had thought about this for a while this week. the reality is that there is this huge mass of unrepresented people now in this state that are getting increasingly sick of looking at this spectacle. The number of these people now completely restless with this situation I think far outnumbers those who are calling the shots at the moment, those in the public sector...

manc

hallelujajordan wrote: »

It also tells you something about the unions and the public sector workers that they are willing to sacrifice service levels and (in the case of the HSE) putting lives at risk, in order to protect their own interests. .

The teachers also want there time off to come out of the school year and not the time they are off for summer/easter/christmas/etc and being paid in full.

hallelujajordan

manc wrote: »

The teachers also want there time off to come out of the school year and not the time they are off for summer/easter/christmas/etc and being paid in full.

Of course they do . . Sure they refused to do parent teacher meetings outside of school hours this year meaning that parents have to take time off work to attend . . Utter contempt for the state the country is in !

jackthekipper

SARZY wrote: »

Seems to me there are 2 choices.

Riots and demonstrations, like our fellow Republic in France, where the people understand that the Republic is there to serve the common good, and the people sometimes have to revolt in order to make the rulers see sense.
We dont have any tradition of this here as for the most part we are a Republic only in name and the recent events about the Catholic church report and the Taoiseachs reluctance to upset them, goes some way to prove that.

Wait for a General Election and change the governing parties. Only problem is that we cant influence the timing of this, as our Republic is constituted to allow government to serve with majority support in the parliament for a given term.And we know from experience, Bertie etc, that these politicans of a particular hue are not influenced by any moral courage or any sense of duty to the Republic or its people.

So, we are basically ****ed.

Last i checked they were elected, why can't there be a revolution against the electorate? Let's get the Fianna fail houses etc

Paulzx

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

So what can we do now to make our voices heard?

Go on strike

brianthebard

jackthekipper wrote: »

Last i checked they were elected, why can't there be a revolution against the electorate? Let's get the Fianna fail houses etc

You want to revolt against yourself?

I agree with Paulzx.

Daithinski

If we had some kind of opposition figure that could rally those who want a change of government by means of a MASSIVE (500,000+ people) public protest march on the dail, that got international media coverage, surely they could be shamed into calling a general election?

Problem is the other political parties have no balls (along with our "government"and don't want to be in power. Happy to snipe away from the sidelines. (I hate saying this, but its true).

All Irish politicians are gutless.

Overheal

SLUSK wrote: »

Well in normal countries there would be riots.

I know - you'd swear the average Irish citizen was afraid of being tazed :rolleyes:

GSF

Can we occupy Liberty Hall?

irish_bob

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/cowen-caves-in-on-public-sector-pay-1960583.html

Brian Coward has washed his hands of us.
What are our democratic options now?
Public Sector workers were able to go on strike to pressure the government.

So what can we do now to make our voices heard?

contact our local fine gael td,s and ask them is thier any political party which represents the non super rich private sector voters , unless fine gael can grasp this huge opportunity to grab the private sector vote , they are no better than the idiots in goverment

timmmy

irish_bob wrote: »

contact our local fine gael td,s and ask them is thier any political party which represents the non super rich private sector voters

Freudian slip, irish_bob?

LostinKildare

Daithinski wrote: »

If we had some kind of opposition figure that could rally those who want a change of government by means of a MASSIVE (500,000+ people) public protest march on the dail, that got international media coverage, surely they could be shamed into calling a general election?

This letter was in the IRISH TIMES today:

Madam, – This is a call to arms to all those who are sick of the way the country is being run. To all those tired of mistake after mistake made by a ruling party with a history of corruption. To everyone incensed by the Government’s cutting of social welfare and education to make way for their rich buddies and comfy lifestyles. We need to send a message to the Government that we are not going to sit idly by while the decisions that shape our lives are made on our behalf.
So, let us all gather come budget day and march on the Dáil. Let us reclaim the values that this Government has thrown aside in the face of adversity. Let us join together, regardless of class or culture, and march as one voice. Let us surround the Dáil on Wednesday December 9th, and let us demand that the Government bend to the will of the people and either stand down or live out the rest of their lives in Leinster House.
Let everyone who has suffered at the hands of flooding and seen no response from their leaders and all those who have lost their job due to stupid decisions made by corrupt politicians, stand up and be heard.
Let them know that we are mad as hell and we’re not going to take it any more. – Yours, etc,


MATTHEW SMYTH,
Marley Rise,
Rathfarnham, Dublin 16

Eliot Rosewater

The fact of the matter is that no "call to arms" from a letter in the Irish Times, or a post on a message board, is going to muster enough support to be even noticed, and at that it would probably just end up being hijacked by the tired old warriors of the Left such as People for Profit. A march to be noticed would have to be organized by one of the two big opposition parties, and given the anger out there it surely wouldn't be easy to muster a healthy crowd.

Which begs the question: where are Fine Gael exactly? You can just imagine the Joker going around "have you seen Fine Gael?" I certainly haven't. They will probably never have a better chance ever again to para-shoot into government but they're not taking it whatsoever. Imagine if they started a national campaign now, led by big billboard ads and an on-the street presence - it would have the potential to be huge. Springboarding into power on a campaign of change they would have the mandate to do whatever. But, apparently not...

Which begs the second question: who are more thoroughly incompetent, FF in government or FG in opposition? Its a tight one.

irish_bob

timmmy wrote: »

Freudian slip, irish_bob?

dont know what you mean???

Moriarty

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

Which begs the second question: who are more thoroughly incompetent, FF in government or FG in opposition? Its a tight one.

It's incompetent to not want to be handed a poisoned chalice? I'd suggest that's an extraordinarily naieve view of politics. If I was in FG I'd be perfectly happy to sit in opposition for the next year as FF reap what they sowed.

FG along with labour and Democratic Left were landed in a similar situation not fifteen years ago and it turned out to be a thoroughly thankless job for them to clean things up. I'd imagine that lesson stung enough to be remembered.

Suck it up. It's the electorates incompetence and short sightedness that's ultimately landed us here. The people get the government they deserve after all. 41.6% of the electorate voted for FF in 2007 - odds are a large number of those idiots baying for blood now were also the idiots that got us here. Maybe the idiots aren't worth listening to?

conaire1

Didn't public protest bring about government change in Iceland?

dresden8

jank wrote: »

Do you honestly believe they care about people who are not going to vote for them anyway? FF and the Public Sector have always been closer than 2 peas in a pod. This is about saving FF not about saving the country.

Yup, 300,000 public sector workers out-voted 1.8 million private sector workers and foisted FF on the country.

Thanks for pointing that out.

dresden8

jank wrote: »

Start writing letters and emails to Strasbourg and the IMF, pleading with them to come in and take us over. Get them to throw the banana out of the republic.

The IMF do not invade countries, they are asked for a loan and destroy the country as a condition of the loan, public and private sectors.

dresden8

JonathanAnon wrote: »

I think maybe Harney would be the only one who would have the balls to enforce the required pay/staff cuts to get the 1.3Bn

That'd be Harney who sorted out the health boards and left us with the super-efficient HSE.

That Harney?

conaire1

Overheal wrote: »

I know - you'd swear the average Irish citizen was afraid of being tazed :rolleyes:

Afraid of getting your ipods scratched!

imme

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I know that. I'm asking, what can we do now?
Brian Cowen is running the country like a dictator.

Only a few years ago, there were riots over a few Orangemen in Dublin.
This is the fate of the entire country.

what?
Cowen = Dictator, is the questionable article you quote not saying that Cowen caved in to the unions? Now you call Cowen a dictator, which is it?

There were not riots a few years ago when the Love Ulster march was to go down O'Connell Street. A few scumbags (a good number of them sporting scarves from a scottish football club) threw paving slabs at the marchers and police. Are you advocating we all buy scarves and throw paving slabs?

Zambia

Why on earth would anyone volunteer to get elected in Ireland at the moment. It like volunteering to be captain of the titanic after the iceberg hit.

If I was in opposition I would wait till things got better as well. When seas are calm any idiot can drive the boat, when the waves are high, the wind is up many would be glad to leave some other eejit at the wheel and hang on.

The only democratic option left in Ireland is to wait till the next election and vote in the other eejits to cant steer the boat either.

Can someone even say who they would like in Power that could handle the Public sector or fix the country. I vote Adolf Hitler (Minus the whole ethenic cleansing stuff)

Eutow

Moriarty wrote: »

Suck it up. It's the electorates incompetence and short sightedness that's ultimately landed us here. The people get the government they deserve after all. 41.6% of the electorate voted for FF in 2007 - odds are a large number of those idiots baying for blood now were also the idiots that got us here. Maybe the idiots aren't worth listening to?

And they will probably vote in the same shower of incompetents at the next general election. The 41.6% that voted for Fianna Failure need to take a good look at themselves. Hopefully the majority of these people have seen sense, but a look at the polls in the newspapers suggests otherwise. FF are still getting 20% - 25% support, and this will probably rise before the next general election.

Things will never change, and as soon as I can, I'll be on a one-way flight away from here.

dresden8

Eutow wrote: »

And they will probably vote in the same shower of incompetents at the next general election. The 41.6% that voted for Fianna Failure need to take a good look at themselves. Hopefully the majority of these people have seen sense, but a look at the polls in the newspapers suggests otherwise. FF are still getting 20% - 25% support.

Things will never change, and as soon as I can, I'll be on a one-way flight away from here.

There's probably flights out of here today!

Eutow

dresden8 wrote: »

There's probably flights out of here today!

Indeed there is but jobs are scarce overseas as well, so it wouldn't be a good time to move abroad just yet.

Eliot Rosewater

Moriarty wrote: »

It's incompetent to not want to be handed a poisoned chalice? I'd suggest that's an extraordinarily naieve view of politics.

Naive, no, overly idealistic, probably.

Fundamentally people are after leadership. If you recall when Gilmore forced O'Donogue to resign, there were people here on Boards saying they were going to vote Labour now solely because of Gilmores move. Clearly there was a desire for leadership.

As it stands FG will do relatively ok in the General Election. They wont get an all out majority and will have to go into Government with Union-controlled Labour. This isn't great by any means, considering they are the lead opposition party to what is the most unpopular government in the history of the State.

If they started a positive campaign, with a rejuvenated leadership, I don't see why they couldn't pick up the votes of the humongous amount of disillusioned people out there. People who aren't just disillusioned with Government, but with the political system itself.

It would perhaps be a riskier strategy, but one with the potential to get them a majority in the Dail. They would then have a mandate to do what they want. And its looking like people wouldn't blame them for the hardship: I think most people realize it was firmly FF's fault for the scale of the downturn, and would be willing for the cuts if given my a popular, determined and mandated Government.

Skrynesaver

Can't a referendum be called by a petition of voters?

Would adding anyone found guilty of corruption or defrauding the state to the list of those ineligible for public office not result in a few by-elections and a change of government?

Wouldn't this also help clear out some of the corruption and cronyism that afflicts our state?

As a further move in this direction shouldn't appointees to state boards have to go through the Civil Service commission rather than just handing these jobs out as "party" favours?

irish_bob

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

Naive, no, overly idealistic, probably.

Fundamentally people are after leadership. If you recall when Gilmore forced O'Donogue to resign, there were people here on Boards saying they were going to vote Labour now solely because of Gilmores move. Clearly there was a desire for leadership.

As it stands FG will do relatively ok in the General Election. They wont get an all out majority and will have to go into Government with Union-controlled Labour. This isn't great by any means, considering they are the lead opposition party to what is the most unpopular government in the history of the State.

If they started a positive campaign, with a rejuvenated leadership, I don't see why they couldn't pick up the votes of the humongous amount of disillusioned people out there. People who aren't just disillusioned with Government, but with the political system itself.

It would perhaps be a riskier strategy, but one with the potential to get them a majority in the Dail. They would then have a mandate to do what they want. And its looking like people wouldn't blame them for the hardship: I think most people realize it was firmly FF's fault for the scale of the downturn, and would be willing for the cuts if given my a popular, determined and mandated Government.

what does it say about fine gael that they are not out there pitiching for this huge vote which has no voice

Daithinski

Zambia232 wrote: »

Why on earth would anyone volunteer to get elected in Ireland at the moment.

I see your point, but if we had a real leader in this country they would step up an take some action to try and sort out this mess. Unfortunately It seems that the opposition doesn't have such a leader.

FF are flittering about with half assed pansy attempts to sort things out. Everybody knows that they are shíte but we all sit and watch as they make a bollix out of everything.

It is the opposition who have it within their power to get them out. But as someone else already pointed out they have no balls.

We need Mr T. to pelt them with snickers and to tell them to get some nuts.

imme

Skrynesaver wrote: »

(1) Can't a referendum be called by a petition of voters?

Would adding anyone found guilty of corruption or defrauding the state to the list of those ineligible for public office not result in a few by-elections and a change of government?(2)

Wouldn't this also help clear out some of the corruption and cronyism that afflicts our state?(3)

As a further move in this direction shouldn't appointees to state boards have to go through the Civil Service commission rather than just handing these jobs out as "party" favours?(4)

(1) no, not possible, a referendum has to be initiated in the Dáil, as a bill.
(2) bankrupts can't stand as TD's as it is. It would take the Dáil to change status quo, as you suggest, FF wouldn't wear this, as their slim majority could be eroded. Do you think a lot of sitting TD's are guilty of corruption, have they been convicted?
(3) where is this corruption / cronyism centred.
(4) apointees to state boards shouldn't be party political, the best person for the job should be appointed. Garrett Fitzgerald was writing in one of his books in the '80's that appointees to prison visiting cttees were likely to be appointed to visit prisons as far away from their residence as possible to maximise the mileage they could claim. He didn't say he advocated this practice, but thought it common.

Dannyboy83

This was the option:
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/small-businesses-in-threat-to-withhold-taxes-436815.html

Small businesses threatened they would not pay taxes if Cowen didn't grow a spine.

It appears to have worked:
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/orourke-unpaid-leave-proposal-parked-436812.html

Mary O'Rourke says there will be public sector pay reform this year.
12 days unpaid leave may come in a few years instead.

Zambia

Daithinski wrote: »

We need Mr T. to pelt them with snickers and to tell them to get some nuts.

Maybe Mr T is an option because no-one has mentioned anyone so far who could lead the country.

Micheal Oleary ?

999 would become 1500-999