limousins success as a breed

leg wax

has the breed been too successful as a breed in ireland. as with the amount of numbers of pedigree animals in the country, bulls are now in over supply and the price has collapsed, now i now there are the few that still make nice money but in general a lot of bulls are out there with no new homes to go to. i bought 3 ped incalf heifers today at comercial money .

pakalasa

I read somewhere that there are more Limousine breeders in County Clare alone than in the region in France from where they originated.
No doubt but they are the best breed for Irish conditions. They are as hardy as hell, easy calving, easy fleshing. Cows also calve easy. They are light boned enough, so that suckler cows don't weigh that much, so less of a problem on wet land.The only problem thay had was their temperment but in credit to the Irish Limousine Society, they bred that out of them.
Yesterday, I was looking at my sucklers, all but 2 have limousin breeding. These two cows are lame.
I'm a fan anyway. The numbers don't lie.

adne

They seem to be the best option for a first time calver anyhow......

Bitten & Hisses

To a certain extent, I agree with you Leg Wax. There is certainly an oversupply in the lower third of the market, in terms of quality. Many of us are guilty of selling poorer-quality pedigrees with certs for commercial money. As breeders, we need to realise that we are not being paid for having pedigree cattle in cases like this and we should not include the cert unless there is a premium for it.
As a case in point, I sold two bulls at the mart in Spring 2009, one PBNR, one with papers. They were similar bulls, yet the papers were only worth €100 in the ring. Considering you pay €45 to register in the first place, it's just not worth it. Plus, some "bargain hunter" has now got a cut-price pedigree animal. The society are looking at a proposal whereby the breeder can de-activate the cert and only the breeder can re-activate it, but a fee will need to be paid. This would ensure that a purchaser will have to pay a premium for the pedigree cert if he wants it. We were told that the Simmental Society have a similar scheme, which places a value of €500 on the cert.
I think this is an excellent idea, provided that the money goes to the breeder, with the society taking a small admin fee. The other thing we need to do is stop registering poorer-quality animals.

JohnBoy

Am I the only one who thinks that sounds like a load of bollocks?


Then again, the whole pedigree breeding concept seems like bollocks to me.

Bitten & Hisses

JohnBoy wrote: »

Am I the only one who thinks that sounds like a load of bollocks?


Then again, the whole pedigree breeding concept seems like bollocks to me.

Well, in my opinion, there should be some reward to the breeder for having pedigree cattle. If the buyer doesn't want to pay the extra for the cert, fine by me but he won't get it free of charge. How is this a load of bollocks?

wiggy123

i'd agree...there is a huge comparsion in prices for pedigree cattle,but i find some pedigree cattle do make high prices--maybe not on them being good cattle, but by who owns them,etc...
i know--in every breed..certain herd names have built up huge presence! in winning shows,obtaining high prices!and derservingly so.. but like all breeders they do have inferior cattle--but they will stay make gd money,because of the herd prefix(the name of breeder of there papers)!
thats my six pence's worth!!

maybe i'm far off the mark

MI5

wiggy123 wrote: »

i'd agree...there is a huge comparsion in prices for pedigree cattle,but i find some pedigree cattle do make high prices--maybe not on them being good cattle, but by who owns them,etc...
i know--in every breed..certain herd names have built up huge presence! in winning shows,obtaining high prices!and derservingly so.. but like all breeders they do have inferior cattle--but they will stay make gd money,because of the herd prefix(the name of breeder of there papers)!
thats my six pence's worth!!

maybe i'm far off the mark

Spot on. A big slice of the high prices depends on who you are as well as the actual quality of the animal. Also, what you get is a small club buying each others stock, and bidding on each others stock to drive up the prices on average joe trying to get in to the game.

JohnBoy

Bitten & Hisses wrote: »

Well, in my opinion, there should be some reward to the breeder for having pedigree cattle. If the buyer doesn't want to pay the extra for the cert, fine by me but he won't get it free of charge. How is this a load of bollocks?

Are cattle meat or toys?

if they're toys and being bought and sold purely on their desirability or ability to produce desirable offspring then that to me is a bit stupid, if they're being bought and sold to produce meat, or produce good meaty offspring then there's some sense to it.

But then you bring in the breeding societys who make it all into a nice cosy old boys club. As a concept they're similarly stupid in that their purpose is to control and manage these desirable cattle. but I can see their place. However once a beast is born pure bred, and has been certified as being pure bred how can that status be legitimately removed from it?

It's either certified or it's not.

Whether it turns out to be desirable enough for some fool to want to pay a silly price for it in the hope of breeding more desirable animals for other fools or is in fact only fit for eating is irelevant.

When breeding societys start into measures like you suggested, where people can remove the certified status then they move from managing a breed to managing prices, or what's more commonly known as a cartel.

Bitten & Hisses

JohnBoy, you're taking a slightly exaggerated view on the role of the breed society here. Don't forget that the societies (or at least in some cases, the founder members of the societies) have been responsible for the introduction of these cattle to the country in the first place, along with sourcing the best bloodlines and generally improving their respective breeds. What should we do now? Say to them "Thanks for the help lads, we don't need you anymore and we're not going to bother registering pedigree animals"?
I'm not for one second suggesting that the breed societies are perfect: In many cases they are flawed organisations, but there are many people who work for the betterment of their breed.
Are you suggesting that there shouldn't be a premium for an animal with a cert?

JohnBoy

The trading of these animals at values beyond their commercial value (meat, or semen) is to me stupid, but I do recognise it has a place. As part of that I recognise the need for certification, otherwise anyone can claim pedigree.

My objection is to the concept that a certification can be removed from an animal if it turns out to only have commercial value.

If someone buys that animal from the breeder who registered it then why shouldnt they be allowed to breed from it and register it's offspring if they so wish. is the animal somehow less of a limousin/charolais/whatever?

The €45 charge to register the animal sounds fair, a breeding society needs money to function, but the €500 minimum value of the cert that only cost €45 is wrong.

Bitten & Hisses

JohnBoy wrote: »

My objection is to the concept that a certification can be removed from an animal if it turns out to only have commercial value.

The proposal I was referring to earlier would apply before a sale has taken place. i.e., It would be better for the breed if we didn't allow the progeny of lower quality animal to be registered as pedigree. These animals are then sold as commercial (PBNR) and the cert is "Deactivated" by the breeder. We're not talking about selling an animal as pedigree, then holding the cert to ransom if a breeder is unhappy with the price. If a buyer has to pay €500 to reactivate the cert, he'll think long and hard before doing so and will make sure that the animal is of sufficient quality to justify it.
This measure would help ensure that only the better quality animals end up on the market with pedigree certs and that the plainer types are sold as commercials. There are far too many animals out there which are pedigree in name only and these have no business being sold as pedigree. What they are doing is dragging down the "floor" on prices of higher quality animals with better bloodlines.

JohnBoy

Bitten & Hisses wrote: »

This measure would help ensure that only the better quality animals end up on the market with pedigree certs and that the plainer types are sold as commercials. There are far too many animals out there which are pedigree in name only and these have no business being sold as pedigree. What they are doing is dragging down the "floor" on prices of higher quality animals with better bloodlines.

how can that not be cartel style price controls?

It's either pure bred or it's not.

Bitten & Hisses

It's about improving the breed while maintaining a minimum price for animals of a certain quality. Calling it a cartel suggests that it's a covert, secretive operation, which it most certainly is not. If people want to buy quality, they should expect to pay for it accordingly. Nobody is denying that the animals are purebred and you can access their breeding info from ICBF if you want.

wiggy123

true...probably the best bred animals--will make teh higher prices! but sometimes i think--animals sell by owners names/prefix!

then again-its a open market out there--ppl see different traits in every animal--may it be,its breeding/progency/look,etc

pakalasa

In fairness to the Irish Limousin Society, they are probably the most open and preogressive of all the societies. The breed has made huge improovements since their early days here.
Their website is way ahead of any other breed.
I think ICBf do validate all the breeds data through the Suckler Scheme, Tully etc.

JohnBoy

Bitten & Hisses wrote: »

It's about improving the breed.

An admirable aim

Bitten & Hisses wrote: »

while maintaining a minimum price for animals of a certain quality.

Price fixing

Bitten & Hisses

JohnBoy wrote: »

Price fixing

No more so than any other business which refuses to sell its produce in the bargain basement. It's open and transparent: By definition, the best quality animals would have pedigree certs. If you want to purchase this quality, you pay the price set by the seller. I don't see the problem with this. Are we all supposed to sell cattle which have had so much time and effort invested in them for commercial prices? I have seen this attitude countless times in farmers coming to the yard to buy a bull with the magic figure of €1000 in their heads. I'm better off sending a bull to the factory than dealing with this type of individual.

Bitten & Hisses

wiggy123 wrote: »

true...probably the best bred animals--will make teh higher prices! but sometimes i think--animals sell by owners names/prefix!

This is correct to a certain extent. If you see a breeder exhibiting at shows during the summer and at society sales, you subconsciously think "Gee, that guy must have good cattle to be getting those prizes". It's like a car company taking part in motorsport to promote their marque. Therefore, you may find yourself drawn to that breeder's stock, as he has created a form of brand awareness. Again, those who get off their ass and go out to shows all summer long deserve to reap the rewards for doing so.

JohnBoy

Bitten & Hisses wrote: »

No more so than any other business which refuses to sell its produce in the bargain basement. It's open and transparent: By definition, the best quality animals would have pedigree certs. If you want to purchase this quality, you pay the price set by the seller. I don't see the problem with this. Are we all supposed to sell cattle which have had so much time and effort invested in them for commercial prices? I have seen this attitude countless times in farmers coming to the yard to buy a bull with the magic figure of €1000 in their heads. I'm better off sending a bull to the factory than dealing with this type of individual.

One business deciding on it's bottom price is one business taking a decision.

A group of businesses (ie the breeders) deciding on it's bottom price is the definition of a cartel. whether they do it in public and no-one cares enough to get it investigated, or they do it behind closed doors makes no difference.

when businesses collectively set prices it's anti-competive.

Bitten & Hisses

JohnBoy wrote: »

when businesses collectively set prices it's anti-competive.

Nobody's stopping you from buying a PBNR Limousin or another breed.

wiggy123

thats true..we can all buy what we want in an animal...
its a open market!