Church has devested itself of assets yet controls them

Niall Keane

Just been talking with a friend, she's a retired teacher who was part of board of management in a catholic school - Sisters of Mercy, she tells me that throughout the last decade after the first revelations of sexual abuse came out the church has been offloading its assets to various groups it controls to avoid compensation? I.e. the auditors would find them without assets and money and unable to pay compensation? Anyone else heard about this?

Zillah

Not sure if that makes sense. For a few reasons:

1 - If you're ordered to pay compensation it doesn't matter how much money you have, you have to pay the compensation.
2 - If auditors are getting involved then they're going to see the assets that were moved even if they're no longer held.
3 - If they're selling these assets then they will have the capital extracted from them, and if they're just giving them away...who are they giving them to and what does that achieve?

Niall Keane

1 - If you're ordered to pay compensation it doesn't matter how much money you have, you have to pay the compensation.

Blood from a stone!

2 - If auditors are getting involved then they're going to see the assets that were moved even if they're no longer held.

Again, too little too late.

3 - If they're selling these assets then they will have the capital extracted from them, and if they're just giving them away...who are they giving them to and what does that achieve?

Organisations linked with the church religiously but not legaly. headed by knights of Colmbanus types, kow towing to the church. Organisation I heard about but probably cant mention for legal reasons deals with returning emigrants and homelessness, the assets of te convent was transfered to them, the head of the organisatin is a committed catholic, so the legal title changes but the social power is held. I'm waiting for this to out inthe next 5 years, and despite being robbed the Irish will still revere the church!

Zillah

Interesting. I could easily believe it, duplicitous snakes that they are.

midlandsmissus

There are indivduals in the Catholic church who couldn't be farther away from the concept of God.

5uspect

midlandsmissus wrote: »

There are indivduals in the Catholic church who couldn't be farther away from the concept of God.

Which one?

MrPudding

5uspect wrote: »

Which one?

Duh. The real one.

MrP

midlandsmissus

MrPudding wrote: »

Duh. The real one.

MrP

That couldn't be further from what I think.
I think all religion's idea of God is God. Different religions just approach the idea in different ways. I don't belong to any religion. God is everything.

robindch

Niall Keane wrote: »

Just been talking with a friend, she's a retired teacher who was part of board of management in a catholic school - Sisters of Mercy, she tells me that throughout the last decade after the first revelations of sexual abuse came out the church has been offloading its assets to various groups it controls to avoid compensation? I.e. the auditors would find them without assets and money and unable to pay compensation?

Yes, that's basically true, but it's difficult to figure out exactly what's being transferred, and in certain cases, who's controlling the new trusts. Of the three organizations I've looked into (briefly), each one appears to have been asset-stripped.

• The Rosminians website doesn't seem to have any information available publicly, but changes at St Joseph's in Drumcondra over the last couple of years suggests that some fancy legal footwork has been going on.
  
• The Christian Brothers appear to have offloaded around 90% of their worldwide assets of around 675m Euro into two trusts, one named the "Edmund Rice Schools Trust" and another one which has yet to be set up -- see the figures listed in here. While the members of the ERST appear to be semi-independent, the directors appear not (see the list here), so it's at least nominally under CB control.
  
• The Daughters of Charity have done much the same -- see their statement here. Their assets total 340m euro, and they have committed to providing an additional 10m to the state. The Daughters of Charity make up both the members and the directors of the DoC trust, so while it's legally independent of the DoC, in fact, it's still controlled by them.

I would imagine that the other congregations which participated in the Michael Woods' liability deal with the government have asset-stripped their organizations too.

midlandsmissus

robindch wrote: »

Yes, that's basically true, but it's difficult to figure out exactly what's being transferred, and in certain cases, who's controlling the new trusts. Of the three organizations I've looked into (briefly), each one appears to have been asset-stripped.

• The Rosminians website doesn't seem to have any information available publicly, but changes at St Joseph's in Drumcondra over the last couple of years suggests that some fancy legal footwork has been going on.
  
• The Christian Brothers appear to have offloaded around 90% of their worldwide assets of around 675m Euro into two trusts, one named the "Edmund Rice Schools Trust" and another one which has yet to be set up -- see the figures listed in here. While the members of the ERST appear to be semi-independent, the directors appear not (see the list here), so it's at least nominally under CB control.
  
• The Daughters of Charity have done much the same -- see their statement here. Their assets total 340m euro, and they have committed to providing an additional 10m to the state. The Daughters of Charity make up both the members and the directors of the DoC trust, so while it's legally independent of the DoC, in fact, it's still controlled by them.

I would imagine that the other congregations which participated in the Michael Woods' liability deal with the government have asset-stripped their organizations too.

So legally will we (my mother was a victim) have a leg to stand on when it comes to receiving compensation from the church. It took her EIGHT YEARS to get anything from the redress board, her fighting all the way, so I can only imagine how long it will take to get anything from the church.
Surely it will come to light that they are moving all their assets around. They will have to explain the discrepancy in finances to auditors won't they?

Zillah

robindch wrote: »

Yes, that's basically true, but it's difficult to figure out exactly what's being transferred, and in certain cases, who's controlling the new trusts. Of the three organizations I've looked into (briefly), each one appears to have been asset-stripped.

• The Rosminians website doesn't seem to have any information available publicly, but changes at St Joseph's in Drumcondra over the last couple of years suggests that some fancy legal footwork has been going on.
  
• The Christian Brothers appear to have offloaded around 90% of their worldwide assets of around 675m Euro into two trusts, one named the "Edmund Rice Schools Trust" and another one which has yet to be set up -- see the figures listed in here. While the members of the ERST appear to be semi-independent, the directors appear not (see the list here), so it's at least nominally under CB control.
  
• The Daughters of Charity have done much the same -- see their statement here. Their assets total 340m euro, and they have committed to providing an additional 10m to the state. The Daughters of Charity make up both the members and the directors of the DoC trust, so while it's legally independent of the DoC, in fact, it's still controlled by them.

I would imagine that the other congregations which participated in the Michael Woods' liability deal with the government have asset-stripped their organizations too.

Holy shit! (in more ways than one! :pac: )

Shouldn't this be a large article in a national newspaper? Sounds like a whole scandal in and of itself. Kind of adding insult to injury. Not only have we the reality of the abuse and the coverup, but now they're blatantly hiding assets to avoid paying out?

pH

This beggars belief ...


http://www.daughtersofcharity.ie/images/stories/PDF/2%20outline%20of%20assets%2C%20liabilities%20%26%20commitmentsa.pdf

7. At the invitation of the HSE, the Daughters of Charity Service for Persons with Intellectual Disability took over the management of St. Anne's Service, Roscrea in September 2008. Its assets are insured for €16.64m by the congregation. As these properties have not yet been transferred into the care of the congregation they are not included in this statement.

There are 226 members in the Congregation, 215 of whom are in Ireland. Of these 25 are under 60 years, 54 are aged 60-70 years and 136 are aged 70 years and older. 11 members work overseas, 7 of whom are under 70 years and 4 who are over 70 years.

I know there's some ambiguity in the words "transferred into the care of", but it reads as if the state just gave another €16m in assets to a religious institution with 25 members under 60 years of age.

Or does it imply that the list of 'assets' as such are not actually assets owned by the congregation?

Zombrex

midlandsmissus wrote: »

That couldn't be further from what I think.
I think all religion's idea of God is God. Different religions just approach the idea in different ways. I don't belong to any religion. God is everything.

Apollo might disagree

Turtwig

midlandsmissus wrote: »

That couldn't be further from what I think.
I think all religion's idea of God is God. Different religions just approach the idea in different ways. I don't belong to any religion. God is everything.

Wait a second, don't you classify yourself as a Christian??
This post makes it seem like your picking and choosing what you like..

robindch

midlandsmissus wrote: »

So legally will we (my mother was a victim) have a leg to stand on when it comes to receiving compensation from the church. It took her EIGHT YEARS to get anything from the redress board, her fighting all the way, so I can only imagine how long it will take to get anything from the church.

The redress board dealt with claims against individual religious congregations. The institutional church (the bit controlled directly by the Vatican) is a different thing, and it's not part of the indemnity deal. I'd imagine that your mum's chances of receiving compensation depend on whether she's claiming against the religious congregations (probably a good chance of getting something) or the institutional church (chances probably a lot less good).

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Surely it will come to light that they are moving all their assets around. They will have to explain the discrepancy in finances to auditors won't they?

It's not a problem if the transfer is done legally. I believe the only way to reverse this lies with the High Court which can reverse a transaction if it can be shown that the people implementing the transfer carried it out under false pretenses. However, I can't immediately see them doing this for a variety of reasons.

Zillah wrote: »

Not only have we the reality of the abuse and the coverup, but now they're blatantly hiding assets to avoid paying out? Kind of adding insult to injury. Shouldn't this be a large article in a national newspaper?

Yes, I think it probably should be. I don't recall anybody in the media referring to the asset-stripping, though from a commercial point of view, this is exactly what seems to be going on.

midlandsmissus

Malty_T wrote: »

Wait a second, don't you classify yourself as a Christian??
This post makes it seem like your picking and choosing what you like..

Yeah I call myself christian if I have to give myself a label, as I believe he was an important messenger here.
But I have my own beliefs instead of following any religion, as they are after all somebody else's interpretation of God.
I'm a firm believer that you should come to your own interpretation.

midlandsmissus

robindch wrote: »

The redress board dealt with claims against individual religious congregations. The institutional church (the bit controlled directly by the Vatican) is a different thing, and it's not part of the indemnity deal. I'd imagine that your mum's chances of receiving compensation depend on whether she's claiming against the religious congregations (probably a good chance of getting something) or the institutional church (chances probably a lot less good).It's not a problem if the transfer is done legally. I believe the only way to reverse this lies with the High Court which can reverse a transaction if it can be shown that the people implementing the transfer carried it out under false pretenses. However, I can't immediately see them doing this for a variety of reasons.Yes, I think it probably should be. I don't recall anybody in the media referring to the asset-stripping, though from a commercial point of view, this is exactly what seems to be going on.

There are alot of stories about the redress board that have gone unheard of though aswell.
My mum put in her claim in time for compensation, however her solicitor 'forgot' to submit the claim by the deadline to the redress board.
Then the solicitors tried to blame her and say it aas her fault.
They placed unbelievable stress on top of some-one who was meant to be recieving HELP.
After 8 YEARS of fighting the solicitors, and them belittling and berating her every step of the way, she went to the high courts and they eventually admitted fault and paid her compensation.
When she was speaking to legal advice, they told her that they had heard about many similiar incidents but that the majority of the other cases were too afraid to fight the solicitors.
How can so many solicitors 'forget' to put the claims in. I think there was alot of corruption with the appointed solicitors and with the redress board. Trust no-one in this country. I can just imagine how hard it will be to get any money out of the church, blood out of a stone. I will tell my mother not to bother, as I know the 8 years of awful stress she was under with the redress board.

robindch

pH wrote: »

I know there's some ambiguity in the words "transferred into the care of", but it reads as if the state just gave another €16m in assets to a religious institution with 25 members under 60 years of age.

From a straightforward reading, I'd imagine that the state has indeed delivered EUR16m worth of assets into the control of a religious organization which is directly implicated in institutional abuse.

Reminds me of a quote from one or other of James Joyce's poems:

James Joyce wrote:

Oh Ireland, my first and only love;
Where Christ and Caesar are fist in glove!

robindch

From a a timely article in today's Irish Times:

Irish Times wrote:

Order says it has no money

PATSY McGARRY

THE ROSMINIAN order, which managed industrial schools at Ferryhouse in Co Tipperary and at Upton, Co Cork, will not be making a contribution to the trust being set up at the Government’s request by 18 congregations which managed residential institutions for children investigated by the Ryan commission.

Rosminian provincial Fr Joe O’Reilly said last night the congregation had explained to the three-person panel set up to examine financial statements from the congregations that “we don’t have money. We never had money”.

He explained the congregation has total assets of €38.2 million, of which St Joseph’s School for the Visually Impaired in Dublin’s Drumcondra accounted for €30 million. The remainder of the congregation’s property was valued at €5.5 million, with a further €2.7 million in cash and investments. They had a debt of €4.5 million, due to be paid by next year. He said the government promised €35 million for redevelopment of St Joseph’s 10 years ago. It was never delivered.

Land around the school is valued at €20 million, which it was hoped could be sold to raise funds for redevelopment of the school. Even that was less than would be required. “The school is the only thing we can offer to the Government but how can we walk away from blind children?” Fr O’Reilly asked.

The congregation has five houses where members lived, including one retreat centre, which make up the €5.5 million in property it owned.

The congregation paid €12 million to the redress scheme set up as part of the 2002 indemnity agreement with the 18 congregations. As regards property overseas, he said full details of everything had been provided to the three-person panel.

On Monday last, Fr O’Reilly visited former mayor of Clonmel Michael O’Brien, who had been resident as a child at Ferryhouse, to inform him of the situation.

Speaking to The Irish Times , Mr O’Brien described the order’s decision as “outrageous”. He said the congregation was “trying to wash its hands of the whole lot”. He would “be asking the church itself to make a contribution to the trust fund to put us in homes. We were in homes before and they didn’t look after us”.

He queried whether the congregation had transferred assets out of the country.

“They had plenty of time to get money out of the country since the Taoiseach called them in” he said.

lostexpectation

one wonders how many schools the gov provide for the blind, and whether the gov has depended on orders the to provide the schools, and partialy funded them over the years and now the between them they say oh we can't threaten the few resources for the blind we have

Rob Northall

http://www.petitions.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=238&Itemid=9&latestnews=latest

To vote against the Statutory Fund!

Zillah

Hello 2009, how have you been?

Rob Northall

http://www.petitions.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=238&Itemid=9&latestnews=latest

To vote against it?
Only 256 votes!!!
The petition ends on last day of September!!

Survovors of the Indulstrial School system their Friends and Family are getting together on

www.shameofireland.co.uk to change things!!

Rob Northall

We are trying to change this at
www.shameofireland.co.uk
you can also vote against the Statutory fund at
http://www.petitions.ie/index.php?op...estnews=latest

Zillah

Shouldn't that be shameofireland.ie?

Rob Northall

The website was donated by the daughter of a survivor of the Industrail Schools it was already paid for for a year, members are in Canada UK Ireland Brazil Australia avery where they ran away to to escape the Church and its abuse

strobe

Rob Northall wrote: »

http://www.petitions.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=238&Itemid=9&latestnews=latest

To vote against the Statutory Fund!

What's wrong with the statutory fund exactly?

Rob Northall

There are so many thing wrong with the Statutory Fund; I will keep it brief

The Money was given as "additional Compensation"
It is 500 million Euros Short
It replaces the Education fund anet gain of 60 million Euros
Survivors should not have to go cap in hand to their abusers in time of need /crisis
As a TRust Fund the TRustees CORI and The Minestry of Education havethe right to turn peole down who the feel do not fit the criteria the set
many survovors are elberly or in dire financial circumstances

Listen to some of the survivors here!!

http://www.paddydoyle.com/a-consultation-proposal-statutory-fund-2/#comments