Greatest car maker?

Blitzkrieger

We've done the 'dream 10-car garage' thing to death, but who's the greatest car maker of all time?

I realise it was on Top Gear last night but wtf are they on about Lancia? I've great respect for them and in moments of madness have considered buying one, but they can't be the greatest car maker ever for the simple fact that everything they produced was monumentally flawed in one way or another.

And wtf with Ford only producing 4 great cars? The Mustang, the Thunderbird, the GT40, the *Lincoln Continental, the Capri, the Cortina, the Escort, the Cossie, the Escort Cosworth, the **Transit, the RS200 and the GT. That's 12 truly great cars, without mentioning anything sold exclusively in Austrailia, and you could probably argue for a lot more. The LTD, the Crown Vic, 3.0 V6 Granadas, Focus RS, ST220, the Racing Puma, the new Shelby Cobra GT500KR. Lancia can't measure up to the big blue…...


*Ford own Lincoln. You even find a Ford badge on the door sills of the Continental.
**Okay, technically not a car…..but it had car running gear.

Mr.David

Well surely its not Ford either.....?

An impossible question really....how do you judge the greatest?

Biro

Blitzkrieger wrote: »

We've done the 'dream 10-car garage' thing to death, but who's the greatest car maker of all time?

I realise it was on Top Gear last night but wtf are they on about Lancia? I've great respect for them and in moments of madness have considered buying one, but they can't be the greatest car maker ever for the simple fact that everything they produced was monumentally flawed in one way or another.

And wtf with Ford only producing 4 great cars? The Mustang, the Thunderbird, the GT40, the *Lincoln Continental, the Capri, the Cortina, the Escort, the Cossie, the Escort Cosworth, the **Transit, the RS200 and the GT. That's 12 truly great cars, without mentioning anything sold exclusively in Austrailia, and you could probably argue for a lot more. The LTD, the Crown Vic, 3.0 V6 Granadas, Focus RS, ST220, the Racing Puma, the new Shelby Cobra GT500KR. Lancia can't measure up to the big blue…...


*Ford own Lincoln. You even find a Ford badge on the door sills of the Continental.
**Okay, technically not a car…..but it had car running gear.

The Cortina was never a great car, it was just big. The Capri was just a cult thing, also quite crap. Some Escorts was fine, but never excellent and the rest were so woeful that the whole Escort image has been tarnished for ever. Mk3 and Mk4 were horrific. The RS models were decent enough alright, but beaten by the 131 Abarth. Transit? Give me a break. Granada's were OK, but nothing amazing, just a Ford version of a luxo-barge for less than the luxo-makers. Me thinks you need to take off your blue tinted oval glasses!!!

RobAMerc

for one I am happy to say totally agree with them ( Lancia is the first brand to pop into my head when I heard the question last week ) - although I think Ferrari probably produced as many greats.

I also think Ford are well up there but come on - Escort ? Cortina ? Capri ? great cars ?

mike65

Its impossible to say really, if I were to go for an influence per car model ratio it would be Citroen. Over 50 years they made only a handful of models but each was hughly important in the development of cars for the masses Traction Avant/2CV/DS/GS/BX

Mr.David

How could lancia be the greatest ever? Their current range is absolutely sh1t. They havent done anything since the integrale.

How could Lancia be considered greater than say Porsche?!

Biro

mike65 wrote: »

Its impossible to say really, if I were to go for an influence per car model ratio it would be Citroen. Over 50 years they made only a handful of models but each was hughly important in the development of cars for the masses Traction Avant/2CV/DS/GS/BX

Citroen had more great ideas and great items than great cars though.

Biro

Mr.David wrote: »

How could lancia be the greatest ever? Their current range is absolutely sh1t. They havent done anything since the integrale.

How could Lancia be considered greater than say Porsche?!

Cause Porsche only have the Speedster, 911, 968, 944 928 and Carerra GT. That's all!

RobAMerc

Mr.David wrote: »

How could lancia be the greatest ever? Their current range is absolutely sh1t. They havent done anything since the integrale.

How could Lancia be considered greater than say Porsche?!

How many true greats have porsche made ? A couple of variants of the 911 - which most people now admit were a bit suspect as the could never sort out having been flawed from the get go. - no way not Porsche.

mike65's suggestion of Citroen would trounce Porsche for innovation.

johndaman66

RobAMerc wrote: »

although I think Ferrari probably produced as many greats.

I would think accessible to the masses has to play a part in the equation too though. Surely a manufacturer would be expected to be producing truly outstanding cars at 200k and more a pop.

I think Citroen steals the show when it comes to innovation and fresh thinking or certainly have done in the past but don't think I'd rate them high up the pecking order all the same given their somewhat suspect build quality and reliability of certain models.

Lets face it headlights that adjust somewhat as your negotiating a bend aren't much good to you when your stranded on the side of the road. Maybe the next man might look at it differently but thats just the way I'm inclined to look at it.

hinault

Its got to be a German car manufacturer or a Japanese manufacturer.

Personally I think Volkswagon have produced the most economical/efficient cars.

TomMc

You are all judging Lancia mainly on the cars produced since Fiat ownership. And even then they made a few crackers, Stratos, Integrale, Hyena. Before that they were the aristocrats of the auto industry but most here would be too young to appreciate the Aurelia B20 or B24, Flaminia, Flavia, Fulvia etc.

I thought Porsche would have been regarded as the best manufacturer overall, as they had a similar enough ethos to pre-Fiat Lancia, but that has changed somewhat as well over recent times.

RobAMerc

TomMc wrote: »

I thought Porsche would have been regarded as the best manufacturer overall, as they had a similar enough ethos to pre-Fiat Lancia, but that has changed somewhat as well over recent times.

I still fail to see what truly outstanding road cars Porsche has brought out other than the 911 and as I said earlier they've really only got that right in the last few years.

I agree - Lancia aren't a patch of the truly wonderful car brand they were - I also had them as number one in the "Which manufacturer fell farthest from grace" thread a few months back.

robtri

I would agree with lancia... some fabulous cars in there days....

To be the greatest to me, its not about fastest or super cars, its about cars that evoke emotion and passion..... a lot of the old Lancia's just ooze this magical power which glosses over their faults.......

a bit Like Alfa for me.... I know they are generally crap and ****tly built... but I still the love them...

Blitzkrieger

mike65 wrote: »

but each was hughly important in the development of cars

They threw out that argument from the start. You could say the Model T was a very important car, but it was far from a great one.


Some of the cars you have to look at specific models to see the great cars. The Escort Cosworth and Escort RS2000 were great cars, and you could make a case for most of the MKI and MKIIs, but yes, a large number of the more modern ones were rubbish. The Lotus Cortina was a great car, but some of the bigger fatter ones wouldn't be.

I'm sure somebody who knows more about the Capri than I do will defend it, but the cult is part of what makes it a great car. I notice nobody's arguing with the Mustang. A fairly basic car on a Fairlane chassis but nobody's saying it's not great? If we were to be objective about it we could pick it to pieces, but I still want one.

The biggest thing against the Transit is that it isn't a car. They used to use them in almost every robbery. They'd load it up to the gills and still out-run the cops. How is that not a great car?

.......apart from the fact it's a van.....

TomMc

The only four manufacturers to my mind who's vehicles were over-engineered were Rolls-Royce, Mercedes, Porsche and earlier Lancia's (with a few exceptions later on). On Top Gear I think it was who made the greatest volume of interesting ones, rather than who is the best manufacturer overall. RR, Merc and Porsche made/make some great cars, Citroen made interesting ones, but Lancia had a little more model diversity throughout several decades.

Henry Ford III

Biro wrote: »

The Cortina was never a great car, it was just big. The Capri was just a cult thing, also quite crap. Some Escorts was fine, but never excellent and the rest were so woeful that the whole Escort image has been tarnished for ever. Mk3 and Mk4 were horrific. The RS models were decent enough alright, but beaten by the 131 Abarth. Transit? Give me a break. Granada's were OK, but nothing amazing, just a Ford version of a luxo-barge for less than the luxo-makers. Me thinks you need to take off your blue tinted oval glasses!!!

Erm.....The Cortina was an excellent car for it's time. 1 car in 7 was a Cortina at one stage in the UK. Some good ones were made too. The Lotus models, the GT's, 1600e. The late ones were only ok, but I drove several 2.0 pinto engined ones that went well, and also a 2.3 v6 that sounded wonderful but had a wicked thirst and wasn't very quick.

Sierra Cosworths livened up the mid 80's. A decent 3 door is still a seriously rapid car.

Capris never did it for me personally but the sold in droves. Some nice high end models were produced RS3100, 2.8i, Tickford Turbo, and the 3000GXL.

RS Escorts from the Mk1 Twin Cam, RS1600 and Mexico all the way through to the MkII RS1800 and RS2000 (last rwd car was made in 1981) were and are still competitive today in their class in international rallies. RS1800's won the world rally championships. They were dominant in world rallying until the arrival of later Mantas/Asconas and then 4wd supercars. Fiat 131 Some of the early fwd Escorts were awful ok.

Later Escort RS Cosworths were pretty special and still make good money.

Transit is still the van benchmark. Obiquitous.

Granada's never did a lot for me, but the MkI Coupe with an Essex 3.0 V6 was a nice place to be.

Don't forget the RS200, Puma 1.7, Focus RS and ST, and even the latest Fiesta Zetec S.

Ford always delivered affordable performance models at a reasonable price.

robtri

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Ford always delivered affordable performance models at a reasonable price.

exactly... but that doesn't make them great cars

Johnny Utah

BMW

TomMc

RobAMerc wrote: »

I still fail to see what truly outstanding road cars Porsche has brought out other than the 911 and as I said earlier they've really only got that right in the last few years.

I agree - Lancia aren't a patch of the truly wonderful car brand they were - I also had them as number one in the "Which manufacturer fell farthest from grace" thread a few months back.

In their day, several 356's, a multitude of 911's (air & water-cooled), 928's, 924 Carrera GT, 944 Turbo, 959, 968 Club Sport.

Henry Ford III

robtri wrote: »

exactly... but that doesn't make them great cars

Nah. All the cars I mentioned above are, in their own way, great cars.

fptosca

Surely that question has no answer. A pool to choose the 4 or 5 greatest car makers would give you a better idea.
Here are mine anyway.
Opel, Citroen, Lancia, Ford, Toyota.

RobAMerc

TomMc wrote: »

In their day, several 356's, a multitude of 911's (air & water-cooled), 928's, 924 Carrera GT, 944 Turbo, 959, 968 Club Sport.

Of those cars mentioned the 356 - 959 and possibly the 928 are the only ones truly worthy of notoriety.

The 911 again took 30 yrs to get right, and some would say longer, the 996 certainly aint up to much - the 997 being the first one that wasn't trying to kill you all the time . The 968CS while a great handling car was certainly not a motoring great, the 944's and 924's were no better than average ( considering the price particularly ).

RobAMerc

fptosca wrote: »

Opel

What ????

Is it because they support Irish soccer ?

robtri

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Nah. All the cars I mentioned above are, in their own way, great cars.

Cortina- horrible piece of junk..... nothing nice or good about them...

Sierra Cosworths - seriously quick, but lets be honest the sierrra was a bucket of crap, the Cosworth was the only decent one among them, it was quick and it was good, handling was appaling tho.... but defo not a great car...

Capris's.... very nice car..... can't fault it... but not a GREAT car.

The escorts..... lets take out the RS range firstly.... the standard escorts where ****.... the Rs where GREAT cars can't argue there....

Transit.... let me just say its a VAN not a Car..... and this is about Great CARS!!!!!!

Granada's..... sorry but to even consider them is funny......

The rs200 was a deathtrap by all accounts.... the 1.7 puma racing is a fun car.... but seriously a Great Car???? Focus RS.... yes a Great Car... the ST NO!!! and finally the fiesta zetec s now thats a great car...

Henry Ford III

robtri wrote: »

Cortina- horrible piece of junk..... nothing nice or good about them...

Sierra Cosworths - seriously quick, but lets be honest the sierrra was a bucket of crap, the Cosworth was the only decent one among them, it was quick and it was good, handling was appaling tho.... but defo not a great car...

Capris's.... very nice car..... can't fault it... but not a GREAT car.

The escorts..... lets take out the RS range firstly.... the standard escorts where ****.... the Rs where GREAT cars can't argue there....

Transit.... let me just say its a VAN not a Car..... and this is about Great CARS!!!!!!

Granada's..... sorry but to even consider them is funny......

The rs200 was a deathtrap by all accounts.... the 1.7 puma racing is a fun car.... but seriously a Great Car???? Focus RS.... yes a Great Car... the ST NO!!! and finally the fiesta zetec s now thats a great car...

Best we can do is agree to differ I think.

A puny MkI Escort 1300GT is a great cat to drive. Light, rwd, and a lot of fun.
Anything above that was even better.

Btw Sierra's handled really well. Even the cooking ones. The XR4i was great fun, later 4wd versions were a hoot to drive. The RS500 was unbeatable as a touring car for years (until they changed the rules).

RS200? Quite safe, but they just made them (and it's competitors at the time) more and more powerful, until they became undrivable.

I owned a Focus ST 2.5 and it was a great car. They are fabulous value to buy used now.

Biro

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Erm.....The Cortina was an excellent car for it's time. 1 car in 7 was a Cortina at one stage in the UK. Some good ones were made too. The Lotus models, the GT's, 1600e. The late ones were only ok, but I drove several 2.0 pinto engined ones that went well, and also a 2.3 v6 that sounded wonderful but had a wicked thirst and wasn't very quick.

Sierra Cosworths livened up the mid 80's. A decent 3 door is still a seriously rapid car.

Capris never did it for me personally but the sold in droves. Some nice high end models were produced RS3100, 2.8i, Tickford Turbo, and the 3000GXL.

RS Escorts from the Mk1 Twin Cam, RS1600 and Mexico all the way through to the MkII RS1800 and RS2000 (last rwd car was made in 1981) were and are still competitive today in their class in international rallies. RS1800's won the world rally championships. They were dominant in world rallying until the arrival of later Mantas/Asconas and then 4wd supercars. Fiat 131 Some of the early fwd Escorts were awful ok.

Later Escort RS Cosworths were pretty special and still make good money.

Transit is still the van benchmark. Obiquitous.

Granada's never did a lot for me, but the MkI Coupe with an Essex 3.0 V6 was a nice place to be.

Don't forget the RS200, Puma 1.7, Focus RS and ST, and even the latest Fiesta Zetec S.

Ford always delivered affordable performance models at a reasonable price.

Your defence of Ford might hold more water if you weren't called Henry Ford!
The Cortina was always tripe, in any time! And the RS200 was never anything like affordable! Great car though, and so is the Focus RS, but laugh all you want at a Fiat 131 Abarth, but it kicked the rallying crown firmly away from the Mk2 Escort back in the day, and looked a lot better while doing it!!

Henry Ford III

Biro wrote: »

Your defence of Ford might hold more water if you weren't called Henry Ford!
The Cortina was always tripe, in any time! And the RS200 was never anything like affordable! Great car though, and so is the Focus RS, but laugh all you want at a Fiat 131 Abarth, but it kicked the rallying crown firmly away from the Mk2 Escort back in the day, and looked a lot better while doing it!!

My web nom de plume is coincidental, and I've made no defence of anything! I'm merely suggesting Ford made and still make some truly great cars.

p.s. How many 131's are rallying and competitive today? Longevity is another measure of greatness surely?

robtri

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Best we can do is agree to differ I think.

A puny MkI Escort 1300GT is a great cat to drive. Light, rwd, and a lot of fun.
Anything above that was even better.

Btw Sierra's handled really well. Even the cooking ones. The XR4i was great fun, later 4wd versions were a hoot to drive. The RS500 was unbeatable as a touring car for years (until they changed the rules).

RS200? Quite safe, but they just made them (and it's competitors at the time) more and more powerful, until they became undrivable.

I owned a Focus ST 2.5 and it was a great car. They are fabulous value to buy used now.

:Dwe will have to disagree.....

as lightning said... the RS200 and all other in that class were a death trap,

I think you are very biased here.... the ST is a good car, no denying that... but it is not a great car, there is nothing outstanding about it... and its bigger brother the RS beats the crap out of it in every way.....
being cheap to buy doesn't make a Great car....

Blitzkrieger

It's very hard to define a great car. I'd like to say it's a car people love....but people always love their car no matter how horrible. I'd like to say it's a car you'd be excited about and want to own....but people get that way about VW kubelwagens with tractor engines in them.

I'm still amazed nobody is arguing that the Mustang isn't a great car. Terrible chassis, suspecsion, brakes, etc. Definitely not a good car, but definitely a great car.

Henry Ford III

I walked into a Ford dealership in Florida a couple of years ago to look at a new Mustang (I was actually on hols.)

I had a Ford employee owners scheme card which I showed to the salesman, telling him I was relocating to the sunny USA.

10 minutes later I was test driving a Mustang GT.

Happy days.

RobAMerc

I have to say, I think the Mk1 Focus is a great car, yes the 1.4 is dog slow - but no hum drum family car should handle that good, and its no mistake, most of Fords recent productions have been superb handlers.

I cannot agree with the earlier stuff though, the RS2000 sold a lot but I think they were awful, the Capri was a dog in a fancy suit, as were the Cortina and almost all Escorts bar the Cossy.

What I do think is brilliant is that Fords have brought good handling cars to the masses - pity most would never know the difference !

ianobrien

Biro wrote: »

, but laugh all you want at a Fiat 131 Abarth, but it kicked the rallying crown firmly away from the Mk2 Escort back in the day, and looked a lot better while doing it!!

Ah, didn't B. Waldergard (sp) win the 1979 World Driver's championship in an Escort (OK, the last rally was in a Merc) with Hannu Mikkola second that year (also in a Ford and Merc for the last rally)

In 1980 there was no official Ford "works" attempt at the WRC (they were trying to build the RS1700T)

In 1981, David Sutton took the Mk2 Escort to both Driver's and Manufacturer's championship (beating Fiat in the process) in a car that had it's design roots back in 1968, and major components (engine, back axle) had their design roots back in the 1959 Anglia

(Edit - I know the Works Cars used an Atlas Back axle - a Transit axle, but all the road cars, RS included used an English axle, as well as the Anglia)

The 1982 Drivers Championship was won by Rohrl in an Opel Ascona 400, with Audi taking the Manufacturer's crown.

The Fiat 131 had the measure of the Escort in 1977-1978, but Ford fought back with the "Monte Escorts", more powerful engines, back axle oil coolers and Ari Vatanen!

However, I still reckon that Lancia (for the Stratos, Fulvia & Integrale), Citroen (Traction Avant, DS, BX and sheer boldness) Ford (performance motoring for the masses) and Honda (OK, boring to look at & drive but their reliability forced the rest to catch up, and the massive power from Normally aspirated engines) are all there for the greatest Car Maker

JHMEG

Define greatest maker...

Has produced more stupendously good cars than anyone else? Ferarri
Has never produced anything other than stupendous cars? Pagani
Has produced stupendously well built cars? Toyota
Has been stupendously innovative? Not sure
Stupendously ubiquoitous? Ford/GM/Toyota

Biro

Henry Ford III wrote: »

My web nom de plume is coincidental, and I've made no defence of anything! I'm merely suggesting Ford made and still make some truly great cars.

p.s. How many 131's are rallying and competitive today? Longevity is another measure of greatness surely?

Not necessarily. Like a political leader - someone may be around in power for 50 years, but that won't make him great! A true great leader will be great even if he was only in power for one year!!

mink_man

nissan

BMW in my opinion. How many of their models are timeless like? 635 csi as an example.

What's all this lark about Lancia?!

squod

Deleted User wrote: »

What's all this lark about Lancia?!

Topgear on Sunday, Lancia taking 12 world rally champs to Subarus 2 etc.....
Finnished up with a look at the integrallye and stratos.

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/TG-S14-E03-P1_722558.htm

peasant

The answer really is very simple:

Mercedes Benz

They built the very first one, they are still in business and they had a fair view gooduns inbetween

JHMEG

Lancia are a bit like Kurt Cobain... if they were still around people would realise they're not really that good.

All in Ford are probably better, and will continue to be, but as Ford are still alive...

mike65

Lancias are still around - LHD only rebadged Fiats.

maidhc

No answer to this question:

Mercedes until the demise of the w126 made amazing over engineered cars.

Toyota introduced the concept of the car that didn't break down to cheap everyday motoring

Citroen invented most stuff we take for granted

And Uncle Henry devised the means by which it could all happen.

At this point in the in 2009 I think Ford probably is the greatest car maker. They have a very good model range, they make cars that are easy to own, reliable, cheap to run and fun to drive at an affordable price (an have done so year in year out since the Mk1 Mondeo). The company also showed its ability to not go into bankruptcy in the US, which is a remarkable feat in itself.... and then of course there is the whole heritage and long history, be it social or motoring.

Seweryn

peasant wrote: »

The answer really is very simple:

Mercedes Benz

They built the very first one, they are still in business and they had a fair view gooduns inbetween

If we go back through the years and take everything into account (engineering, innovation, reliability, technology) then Mercedes-Benz is the winner. And they built the very fist car, so they are... the most experienced.

unkel

I honestly find it hard to name just the one name. We are talking "great" here, so no common mass manufacturers spitting out mediocre stuff 99% of the time like Opel, Toyota or Ford need apply.

I'll dismiss small time makers and makers without a decades long pedigree. Lancia were great but brand erosion is worse than rust if you're counting decades

I really like BMW (simply because I've been a happy owner for a long time and started to appreciate the make more as an owner) and they've come up with some superbly driving cars and great engines (winning engine awards year after year after year). As peasant said, Mercedes-Benz is the only make that was there since the start and they have built up a huge and deserved reputation since what, 1885? Thankfully they've restored their reputation somewhat since the shameful Chrysler US "let's look at the 3month bottom line" approach that led us into the recession.

Porsche is firmly there. But as others said, their main model over many decades looks superb, but is fundamentally flawed. Don't blame Porsche though - they had it fixed. Blame Porsche buyers who only wanted 911s

Leaves me to my conclusion. I've never been a Ferrari fan. I'm still no fan. Watching some clips of the new 458 recently though and WOW!!! If that is not the most amazing car in every department today, I don't know which one is. Performance, Engine, Sound, Race. It's all there

I vote Ferrari

fryup

It has to be Citroen for innovation alone, they always made cars out of the ordinary with class leading suspension > DS & BX for example.

And there current fleet is quite stylish too.. C6 and new C3.

TM RACING

I'd say most of the people here could not name more than four lancias. Take it from an enthusaist, they made so many unheard of great cas.

plissken

TM RACING wrote: »

I'd say most of the people here could not name more than four lancias. Take it from an enthusaist, they made so many unheard of great cas.

And most would say you're wrong:D

ART6

Having been for nearly fifty years of motoring mostly a Ford owner (by choice) I'm perhaps a Ford loyalist. But no Ford has ever given me a minute of bother although several died of neglect. In their day I dreamed of owning a GT40 following their performance at Le Mans, and now, having driven a few of them, I want one of the six speed turbo diesel Mondeos. One serious lump of car!

JHMEG

fryup wrote: »

It has to be Citroen for innovation alone,

They've also produced a lot of rubbish. Cars like the DS strike me as being different for the sake of being different. Like their owners.

groupb

hinault wrote: »

Its got to be a German car manufacturer or a Japanese manufacturer.

Personally I think Volkswagon have produced the most economical/efficient cars.

When compared with a car that handles like an f1 car ,goes like dragster , is more refined than a rolls royce and is stronger than a nuclear bunker (I'm talking about the golf tdi ) what hope do ugly cars like the ford capri and lancia fulvia have?