Greatest car maker?

Blitzkrieger

We've done the 'dream 10-car garage' thing to death, but who's the greatest car maker of all time?

I realise it was on Top Gear last night but wtf are they on about Lancia? I've great respect for them and in moments of madness have considered buying one, but they can't be the greatest car maker ever for the simple fact that everything they produced was monumentally flawed in one way or another.

And wtf with Ford only producing 4 great cars? The Mustang, the Thunderbird, the GT40, the *Lincoln Continental, the Capri, the Cortina, the Escort, the Cossie, the Escort Cosworth, the **Transit, the RS200 and the GT. That's 12 truly great cars, without mentioning anything sold exclusively in Austrailia, and you could probably argue for a lot more. The LTD, the Crown Vic, 3.0 V6 Granadas, Focus RS, ST220, the Racing Puma, the new Shelby Cobra GT500KR. Lancia can't measure up to the big blue…...


*Ford own Lincoln. You even find a Ford badge on the door sills of the Continental.
**Okay, technically not a car…..but it had car running gear.

Mr.David

Well surely its not Ford either.....?

An impossible question really....how do you judge the greatest?

Biro

Blitzkrieger wrote: »

We've done the 'dream 10-car garage' thing to death, but who's the greatest car maker of all time?

I realise it was on Top Gear last night but wtf are they on about Lancia? I've great respect for them and in moments of madness have considered buying one, but they can't be the greatest car maker ever for the simple fact that everything they produced was monumentally flawed in one way or another.

And wtf with Ford only producing 4 great cars? The Mustang, the Thunderbird, the GT40, the *Lincoln Continental, the Capri, the Cortina, the Escort, the Cossie, the Escort Cosworth, the **Transit, the RS200 and the GT. That's 12 truly great cars, without mentioning anything sold exclusively in Austrailia, and you could probably argue for a lot more. The LTD, the Crown Vic, 3.0 V6 Granadas, Focus RS, ST220, the Racing Puma, the new Shelby Cobra GT500KR. Lancia can't measure up to the big blue…...


*Ford own Lincoln. You even find a Ford badge on the door sills of the Continental.
**Okay, technically not a car…..but it had car running gear.

The Cortina was never a great car, it was just big. The Capri was just a cult thing, also quite crap. Some Escorts was fine, but never excellent and the rest were so woeful that the whole Escort image has been tarnished for ever. Mk3 and Mk4 were horrific. The RS models were decent enough alright, but beaten by the 131 Abarth. Transit? Give me a break. Granada's were OK, but nothing amazing, just a Ford version of a luxo-barge for less than the luxo-makers. Me thinks you need to take off your blue tinted oval glasses!!!

RobAMerc

for one I am happy to say totally agree with them ( Lancia is the first brand to pop into my head when I heard the question last week ) - although I think Ferrari probably produced as many greats.

I also think Ford are well up there but come on - Escort ? Cortina ? Capri ? great cars ?

mike65

Its impossible to say really, if I were to go for an influence per car model ratio it would be Citroen. Over 50 years they made only a handful of models but each was hughly important in the development of cars for the masses Traction Avant/2CV/DS/GS/BX

Mr.David

How could lancia be the greatest ever? Their current range is absolutely sh1t. They havent done anything since the integrale.

How could Lancia be considered greater than say Porsche?!

Biro

mike65 wrote: »

Its impossible to say really, if I were to go for an influence per car model ratio it would be Citroen. Over 50 years they made only a handful of models but each was hughly important in the development of cars for the masses Traction Avant/2CV/DS/GS/BX

Citroen had more great ideas and great items than great cars though.

Biro

Mr.David wrote: »

How could lancia be the greatest ever? Their current range is absolutely sh1t. They havent done anything since the integrale.

How could Lancia be considered greater than say Porsche?!

Cause Porsche only have the Speedster, 911, 968, 944 928 and Carerra GT. That's all!

RobAMerc

Mr.David wrote: »

How could lancia be the greatest ever? Their current range is absolutely sh1t. They havent done anything since the integrale.

How could Lancia be considered greater than say Porsche?!

How many true greats have porsche made ? A couple of variants of the 911 - which most people now admit were a bit suspect as the could never sort out having been flawed from the get go. - no way not Porsche.

mike65's suggestion of Citroen would trounce Porsche for innovation.

johndaman66

RobAMerc wrote: »

although I think Ferrari probably produced as many greats.

I would think accessible to the masses has to play a part in the equation too though. Surely a manufacturer would be expected to be producing truly outstanding cars at 200k and more a pop.

I think Citroen steals the show when it comes to innovation and fresh thinking or certainly have done in the past but don't think I'd rate them high up the pecking order all the same given their somewhat suspect build quality and reliability of certain models.

Lets face it headlights that adjust somewhat as your negotiating a bend aren't much good to you when your stranded on the side of the road. Maybe the next man might look at it differently but thats just the way I'm inclined to look at it.

hinault

Its got to be a German car manufacturer or a Japanese manufacturer.

Personally I think Volkswagon have produced the most economical/efficient cars.

TomMc

You are all judging Lancia mainly on the cars produced since Fiat ownership. And even then they made a few crackers, Stratos, Integrale, Hyena. Before that they were the aristocrats of the auto industry but most here would be too young to appreciate the Aurelia B20 or B24, Flaminia, Flavia, Fulvia etc.

I thought Porsche would have been regarded as the best manufacturer overall, as they had a similar enough ethos to pre-Fiat Lancia, but that has changed somewhat as well over recent times.

RobAMerc

TomMc wrote: »

I thought Porsche would have been regarded as the best manufacturer overall, as they had a similar enough ethos to pre-Fiat Lancia, but that has changed somewhat as well over recent times.

I still fail to see what truly outstanding road cars Porsche has brought out other than the 911 and as I said earlier they've really only got that right in the last few years.

I agree - Lancia aren't a patch of the truly wonderful car brand they were - I also had them as number one in the "Which manufacturer fell farthest from grace" thread a few months back.

robtri

I would agree with lancia... some fabulous cars in there days....

To be the greatest to me, its not about fastest or super cars, its about cars that evoke emotion and passion..... a lot of the old Lancia's just ooze this magical power which glosses over their faults.......

a bit Like Alfa for me.... I know they are generally crap and ****tly built... but I still the love them...

Blitzkrieger

mike65 wrote: »

but each was hughly important in the development of cars

They threw out that argument from the start. You could say the Model T was a very important car, but it was far from a great one.


Some of the cars you have to look at specific models to see the great cars. The Escort Cosworth and Escort RS2000 were great cars, and you could make a case for most of the MKI and MKIIs, but yes, a large number of the more modern ones were rubbish. The Lotus Cortina was a great car, but some of the bigger fatter ones wouldn't be.

I'm sure somebody who knows more about the Capri than I do will defend it, but the cult is part of what makes it a great car. I notice nobody's arguing with the Mustang. A fairly basic car on a Fairlane chassis but nobody's saying it's not great? If we were to be objective about it we could pick it to pieces, but I still want one.

The biggest thing against the Transit is that it isn't a car. They used to use them in almost every robbery. They'd load it up to the gills and still out-run the cops. How is that not a great car?

.......apart from the fact it's a van.....

TomMc

The only four manufacturers to my mind who's vehicles were over-engineered were Rolls-Royce, Mercedes, Porsche and earlier Lancia's (with a few exceptions later on). On Top Gear I think it was who made the greatest volume of interesting ones, rather than who is the best manufacturer overall. RR, Merc and Porsche made/make some great cars, Citroen made interesting ones, but Lancia had a little more model diversity throughout several decades.

Henry Ford III

Biro wrote: »

The Cortina was never a great car, it was just big. The Capri was just a cult thing, also quite crap. Some Escorts was fine, but never excellent and the rest were so woeful that the whole Escort image has been tarnished for ever. Mk3 and Mk4 were horrific. The RS models were decent enough alright, but beaten by the 131 Abarth. Transit? Give me a break. Granada's were OK, but nothing amazing, just a Ford version of a luxo-barge for less than the luxo-makers. Me thinks you need to take off your blue tinted oval glasses!!!

Erm.....The Cortina was an excellent car for it's time. 1 car in 7 was a Cortina at one stage in the UK. Some good ones were made too. The Lotus models, the GT's, 1600e. The late ones were only ok, but I drove several 2.0 pinto engined ones that went well, and also a 2.3 v6 that sounded wonderful but had a wicked thirst and wasn't very quick.

Sierra Cosworths livened up the mid 80's. A decent 3 door is still a seriously rapid car.

Capris never did it for me personally but the sold in droves. Some nice high end models were produced RS3100, 2.8i, Tickford Turbo, and the 3000GXL.

RS Escorts from the Mk1 Twin Cam, RS1600 and Mexico all the way through to the MkII RS1800 and RS2000 (last rwd car was made in 1981) were and are still competitive today in their class in international rallies. RS1800's won the world rally championships. They were dominant in world rallying until the arrival of later Mantas/Asconas and then 4wd supercars. Fiat 131 Some of the early fwd Escorts were awful ok.

Later Escort RS Cosworths were pretty special and still make good money.

Transit is still the van benchmark. Obiquitous.

Granada's never did a lot for me, but the MkI Coupe with an Essex 3.0 V6 was a nice place to be.

Don't forget the RS200, Puma 1.7, Focus RS and ST, and even the latest Fiesta Zetec S.

Ford always delivered affordable performance models at a reasonable price.

robtri

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Ford always delivered affordable performance models at a reasonable price.

exactly... but that doesn't make them great cars

Johnny Utah

BMW

TomMc

RobAMerc wrote: »

I still fail to see what truly outstanding road cars Porsche has brought out other than the 911 and as I said earlier they've really only got that right in the last few years.

I agree - Lancia aren't a patch of the truly wonderful car brand they were - I also had them as number one in the "Which manufacturer fell farthest from grace" thread a few months back.

In their day, several 356's, a multitude of 911's (air & water-cooled), 928's, 924 Carrera GT, 944 Turbo, 959, 968 Club Sport.

Henry Ford III

robtri wrote: »

exactly... but that doesn't make them great cars

Nah. All the cars I mentioned above are, in their own way, great cars.

fptosca

Surely that question has no answer. A pool to choose the 4 or 5 greatest car makers would give you a better idea.
Here are mine anyway.
Opel, Citroen, Lancia, Ford, Toyota.

RobAMerc

TomMc wrote: »

In their day, several 356's, a multitude of 911's (air & water-cooled), 928's, 924 Carrera GT, 944 Turbo, 959, 968 Club Sport.

Of those cars mentioned the 356 - 959 and possibly the 928 are the only ones truly worthy of notoriety.

The 911 again took 30 yrs to get right, and some would say longer, the 996 certainly aint up to much - the 997 being the first one that wasn't trying to kill you all the time . The 968CS while a great handling car was certainly not a motoring great, the 944's and 924's were no better than average ( considering the price particularly ).

RobAMerc

fptosca wrote: »

Opel

What ????

Is it because they support Irish soccer ?

robtri

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Nah. All the cars I mentioned above are, in their own way, great cars.

Cortina- horrible piece of junk..... nothing nice or good about them...

Sierra Cosworths - seriously quick, but lets be honest the sierrra was a bucket of crap, the Cosworth was the only decent one among them, it was quick and it was good, handling was appaling tho.... but defo not a great car...

Capris's.... very nice car..... can't fault it... but not a GREAT car.

The escorts..... lets take out the RS range firstly.... the standard escorts where ****.... the Rs where GREAT cars can't argue there....

Transit.... let me just say its a VAN not a Car..... and this is about Great CARS!!!!!!

Granada's..... sorry but to even consider them is funny......

The rs200 was a deathtrap by all accounts.... the 1.7 puma racing is a fun car.... but seriously a Great Car???? Focus RS.... yes a Great Car... the ST NO!!! and finally the fiesta zetec s now thats a great car...

Henry Ford III

robtri wrote: »

Cortina- horrible piece of junk..... nothing nice or good about them...

Sierra Cosworths - seriously quick, but lets be honest the sierrra was a bucket of crap, the Cosworth was the only decent one among them, it was quick and it was good, handling was appaling tho.... but defo not a great car...

Capris's.... very nice car..... can't fault it... but not a GREAT car.

The escorts..... lets take out the RS range firstly.... the standard escorts where ****.... the Rs where GREAT cars can't argue there....

Transit.... let me just say its a VAN not a Car..... and this is about Great CARS!!!!!!

Granada's..... sorry but to even consider them is funny......

The rs200 was a deathtrap by all accounts.... the 1.7 puma racing is a fun car.... but seriously a Great Car???? Focus RS.... yes a Great Car... the ST NO!!! and finally the fiesta zetec s now thats a great car...

Best we can do is agree to differ I think.

A puny MkI Escort 1300GT is a great cat to drive. Light, rwd, and a lot of fun.
Anything above that was even better.

Btw Sierra's handled really well. Even the cooking ones. The XR4i was great fun, later 4wd versions were a hoot to drive. The RS500 was unbeatable as a touring car for years (until they changed the rules).

RS200? Quite safe, but they just made them (and it's competitors at the time) more and more powerful, until they became undrivable.

I owned a Focus ST 2.5 and it was a great car. They are fabulous value to buy used now.

Biro

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Erm.....The Cortina was an excellent car for it's time. 1 car in 7 was a Cortina at one stage in the UK. Some good ones were made too. The Lotus models, the GT's, 1600e. The late ones were only ok, but I drove several 2.0 pinto engined ones that went well, and also a 2.3 v6 that sounded wonderful but had a wicked thirst and wasn't very quick.

Sierra Cosworths livened up the mid 80's. A decent 3 door is still a seriously rapid car.

Capris never did it for me personally but the sold in droves. Some nice high end models were produced RS3100, 2.8i, Tickford Turbo, and the 3000GXL.

RS Escorts from the Mk1 Twin Cam, RS1600 and Mexico all the way through to the MkII RS1800 and RS2000 (last rwd car was made in 1981) were and are still competitive today in their class in international rallies. RS1800's won the world rally championships. They were dominant in world rallying until the arrival of later Mantas/Asconas and then 4wd supercars. Fiat 131 Some of the early fwd Escorts were awful ok.

Later Escort RS Cosworths were pretty special and still make good money.

Transit is still the van benchmark. Obiquitous.

Granada's never did a lot for me, but the MkI Coupe with an Essex 3.0 V6 was a nice place to be.

Don't forget the RS200, Puma 1.7, Focus RS and ST, and even the latest Fiesta Zetec S.

Ford always delivered affordable performance models at a reasonable price.

Your defence of Ford might hold more water if you weren't called Henry Ford!
The Cortina was always tripe, in any time! And the RS200 was never anything like affordable! Great car though, and so is the Focus RS, but laugh all you want at a Fiat 131 Abarth, but it kicked the rallying crown firmly away from the Mk2 Escort back in the day, and looked a lot better while doing it!!

Henry Ford III

Biro wrote: »

Your defence of Ford might hold more water if you weren't called Henry Ford!
The Cortina was always tripe, in any time! And the RS200 was never anything like affordable! Great car though, and so is the Focus RS, but laugh all you want at a Fiat 131 Abarth, but it kicked the rallying crown firmly away from the Mk2 Escort back in the day, and looked a lot better while doing it!!

My web nom de plume is coincidental, and I've made no defence of anything! I'm merely suggesting Ford made and still make some truly great cars.

p.s. How many 131's are rallying and competitive today? Longevity is another measure of greatness surely?

robtri

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Best we can do is agree to differ I think.

A puny MkI Escort 1300GT is a great cat to drive. Light, rwd, and a lot of fun.
Anything above that was even better.

Btw Sierra's handled really well. Even the cooking ones. The XR4i was great fun, later 4wd versions were a hoot to drive. The RS500 was unbeatable as a touring car for years (until they changed the rules).

RS200? Quite safe, but they just made them (and it's competitors at the time) more and more powerful, until they became undrivable.

I owned a Focus ST 2.5 and it was a great car. They are fabulous value to buy used now.

:Dwe will have to disagree.....

as lightning said... the RS200 and all other in that class were a death trap,

I think you are very biased here.... the ST is a good car, no denying that... but it is not a great car, there is nothing outstanding about it... and its bigger brother the RS beats the crap out of it in every way.....
being cheap to buy doesn't make a Great car....

Blitzkrieger

It's very hard to define a great car. I'd like to say it's a car people love....but people always love their car no matter how horrible. I'd like to say it's a car you'd be excited about and want to own....but people get that way about VW kubelwagens with tractor engines in them.

I'm still amazed nobody is arguing that the Mustang isn't a great car. Terrible chassis, suspecsion, brakes, etc. Definitely not a good car, but definitely a great car.

Henry Ford III

I walked into a Ford dealership in Florida a couple of years ago to look at a new Mustang (I was actually on hols.)

I had a Ford employee owners scheme card which I showed to the salesman, telling him I was relocating to the sunny USA.

10 minutes later I was test driving a Mustang GT.

Happy days.