Zombie Science

NOGMaxpower

Soo

Was just thinking, we've all been bouncing ideas around about how we'd survive Z day. We've had numerous amounts of tactics, weapon sharing, rally points and other random but positive thinking.

But thats all surviving, what about beating the zombies once and for all? Is it just a numbers game, do we just need to kill them with a shot to the head and thats it? I was always worried about what we'd do with the Z's remains? Burning them could result in an airborn mutation, burying them could lead towards an infection of earth/water.

Which leads me to Z Science, to truely understand how humanity can survive we need to study them and document their weaknesses and strengths. To ultimately find a cure or a way to wipe them out for good.

Questions:

Is there any point to this?
How would we catch a Z?
Where would we be able to run tests?
What test would we run?

Evolute

There is only one problem with that you have to wait until z-day happens before you can study them.

Although I do like the curveball you have put in by saying the infection could become airborne or contaminate water and plant life.
Things dont seem as easy as they did when you first start to think about it shooting them in the head and just leaving them there.
Doesnt seem to cut it anymore hehe.

NOGMaxpower

Evolute wrote: »

There is only one problem with that you have to wait until z-day happens before you can study them.

Although I do like the curveball you have put in by saying the infection could become airborne or contaminate water and plant life.
Things dont seem as easy as they did when you first start to think about it shooting them in the head and just leaving them there.
Doesnt seem to cut it anymore hehe.

dam right it doesn't cut it! imagine the wildlife that would be eating the dead Z's? i think its too big of an assumption to say Z day is limited to humans. Imagine, crows/birds, mice/rats, badgers, dogs, cats, flies all munching the carcas of a Z only shortly after becoming infected themselves.

The only fear i have is the chicken and the egg, should such research actually start now would it indirectly be the cause of an outbreak?

Im thinking anything short of Hydrofluoric acid in a large swimming pool type vessels and we'll be knee deep in the infected bodies reinfecting everything again.

So process is:

1: Kill Zombie
2: Take remains to a lab, test the corrosive properties of acid on said zombie. Find best and most common adcid we can use.
3: Create a large Zombie trap, dig a 6 foot mote line it with what ever material is needed to fill it up with Hydrofluoric acid. Find 100 virgins and put them in the middle of the trap to lure the Z's to their doom.
4: Repeat til there is none left lol

ScumLord

NOGMaxpower wrote: »

But thats all surviving, what about beating the zombies once and for all? Is it just a numbers game, do we just need to kill them with a shot to the head and thats it? I was always worried about what we'd do with the Z's remains? Burning them could result in an airborn mutation, burying them could lead towards an infection of earth/water.

According to the right honorable Mr. Brooks burning the Zombie corpse is best practice. The very fact it takes close contact with a Zombie and biting to be sure to pass the virus it seems unlikely the virus can survive outside it's host for any length of time, it's also more unlikely that any living creature could survive burning (assuming the virus is considered a living creature/organism).

Guns will be useless when we're considering a large offensive against the Zombies. Modified work vehicles will be the best solution.

NOGMaxpower

ScumLord wrote: »

According to the right honorable Mr. Brooks burning the Zombie corpse is best practice. The very fact it takes close contact with a Zombie and biting to be sure to pass the virus it seems unlikely the virus can survive outside it's host for any length of time, it's also more unlikely that any living creature could survive burning (assuming the virus is considered a living creature/organism).

Guns will be useless when we're considering a large offensive against the Zombies. Modified work vehicles will be the best solution.

Virus's adapt and mutate all the time, i can only imagine such a complex virus as the Z virus would easily mutate into an airborn virus. Usually mutations of this nature come about from violent reactions to fire, water etc.

So I seriously doubt it will stay the same and be restricted to being passed on by touch or exchange of fluids.

JCB, digs a 10 foot mote around a building say dundrum shopping centre. Fill it with Hydrofluoric acid diluted with water. build a make shift bridge and we're sorted. Not one Z will survive swimming in one of the worlds most caustic acids. they'd be turned to mush and ultimately ever single trace of organic material would be destroyed = no chance of it reinfecting anyone.

= END GAME FOR Z's.

NOGMaxpower

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gApZlK9jZzQ

acid at work

Evolute

ScumLord wrote: »

According to the right honorable Mr. Brooks burning the Zombie corpse is best practice. The very fact it takes close contact with a Zombie and biting to be sure to pass the virus it seems unlikely the virus can survive outside it's host for any length of time, it's also more unlikely that any living creature could survive burning (assuming the virus is considered a living creature/organism).

Guns will be useless when we're considering a large offensive against the Zombies. Modified work vehicles will be the best solution.

No offense to Mr. Brooks but he knows none of the specifics of something that hasnt happened.
However if it is a virus it is therefore in the blood and can infect other things or atleast animals can become carriers of the virus.
Also noone knows if it can become airborn as yet again it hasnt happened.

Phractal

Step one: watch film 'outbreak'. Step two: research 'fuel air bomb' and 'thermobaric device'. Step three: procure materials for device. Step four: build device. Step five: no more zombies! If that fails, putting the corpses through a grinder and then into HF would do the trick, as would using the virus itself to generate antibodies in a lab cultured specimen, and thus a cure.

Evolute

Phractal wrote: »

Step one: watch film 'outbreak'. Step two: research 'fuel air bomb' and 'thermobaric device'. Step three: procure materials for device. Step four: build device. Step five: no more zombies! If that fails, putting the corpses through a grinder and then into HF would do the trick, as would using the virus itself to generate antibodies in a lab cultured specimen, and thus a cure.

Aha but that didnt work in outbreak also where you are dropping the bomb would want to be clear of all uninfected humans

ScumLord

Evolute wrote: »

No offense to Mr. Brooks but he knows none of the specifics of something that hasnt happened.
However if it is a virus it is therefore in the blood and can infect other things or atleast animals can become carriers of the virus.
Also noone knows if it can become airborn as yet again it hasnt happened.

There's a difference between a virus being airborne and impervious to flame. There's no way a simple virus could survive burning. Unless someones got evidence of it happening? I know some trees need fire to reproduce but I don't see a naked cell being able to put up any resistance to fire.

I figured it was accepted at this point that the Zombie virus was fatal in all cases. It's kills all animals including humans, it's just that humans have an additional side effect due to having unique brains.

Evolute

ScumLord wrote: »

There's a difference between a virus being airborne and impervious to flame. There's no way a simple virus could survive burning. Unless someones got evidence of it happening? I know some trees need fire to reproduce but I don't see a naked cell being able to put up any resistance to fire.

I figured it was accepted at this point that the Zombie virus was fatal in all cases. It's kills all animals including humans, it's just that humans have an additional side effect due to having unique brains.

See thats the problem here your assuming that they follow the same trend as movie fictional zombies which they probably won't. So all everyone thinks they know is most likely up in the air.
Also its not a normal virus and far from simple

ScumLord

Evolute wrote: »

See thats the problem here your assuming that they follow the same trend as movie fictional zombies which they probably won't. So all everyone thinks they know is most likely up in the air.
Also its not a normal virus and far from simple

I don't follow the movies at all. I have yet to see a good zombie movie.

All my assumptions are based in fact, the only leap of faith I make is that the zombie virus will create living dead. After that it has to be grounded in reality. The fact is I've never come across any naked cell that can survive fire and unless the cell is naked (and by naked I mean has no protective shell like a plants seed would to protect it) there's no way it can interact with the cells in our body.

I don't subscribe to the supernatural, everything has to be based in cold hard science. Zombies are common throughout the animal and insect world, hollywood has turned them into impossible super creatures that have no grounding in reality at all.

In a few weeks my zombie website masterpiece shall be finished then you'll all be learned so ye will.

NOGMaxpower

so all i can take from these arguments is there is a need for zombie science. We can't say for sure if the Z virus is airborn or what effect fire will have on its cell structure (would it cause it to mutate?).

Assuming the Z virus would be unique and extremely complex i think its fair to assume the impossible is possible. Science it self defines that which was once deemed impossible by testing it in an environment and documenting its every move.

So in short, one part of Z survival is Z science. Without it we'll never truely be able to survive.

Again fire or not I still believe acid is the best way to dispose of Z remains until such time Z science can prove fire or other methods are safe.

ScumLord

NOGMaxpower wrote: »

so all i can take from these arguments is there is a need for zombie science. We can't say for sure if the Z virus is airborn or what effect fire will have on its cell structure (would it cause it to mutate?).

Yes it would cause it to mutate into carbon.

Acid would be very good at disposing of bodies completely but it has many drawbacks, it's rare, it's always extremely dangerous, it's extremely costly to store and transport even in a resource economy. Fire is there when you need it and not a second before so is much safer.

Evolute

ScumLord wrote: »

I don't follow the movies at all. I have yet to see a good zombie movie.

All my assumptions are based in fact, the only leap of faith I make is that the zombie virus will create living dead. After that it has to be grounded in reality. The fact is I've never come across any naked cell that can survive fire and unless the cell is naked (and by naked I mean has no protective shell like a plants seed would to protect it) there's no way it can interact with the cells in our body.

I don't subscribe to the supernatural, everything has to be based in cold hard science. Zombies are common throughout the animal and insect world, hollywood has turned them into impossible super creatures that have no grounding in reality at all.

In a few weeks my zombie website masterpiece shall be finished then you'll all be learned so ye will.

I find it hard to believe that its all facts when in all fairness until it happens is complete fiction.
However I do believe that when zombies do come along that they will be easily killed just like a human.
Also please do post your website link when it is finished I'm intrigued

Doctor DooM

Evolute wrote: »

I find it hard to believe that its all facts when in all fairness until it happens is complete fiction.
However I do believe that when zombies do come along that they will be easily killed just like a human.
Also please do post your website link when it is finished I'm intrigued

You cannot state something is 100% fiction.

For example, Russels tea pot.

You cannot state with 100% certainty that there's no teapot in orbit around Saturn- you have just not percieved it, so assume it is so.

Do not give the zombies the nonchalance they want!

Evolute

Doctor DooM wrote: »

You cannot state something is 100% fiction.

For example, Russels tea pot.

You cannot state with 100% certainty that there's no teapot in orbit around Saturn- you have just not percieved it, so assume it is so.

Do not give the zombies the nonchalance they want!

Im saying that all the information about them is fictional I'm not saying they are and you can't disagree with that

ScumLord

Evolute wrote: »

I find it hard to believe that its all facts when in all fairness until it happens is complete fiction.
However I do believe that when zombies do come along that they will be easily killed just like a human.
Also please do post your website link when it is finished I'm intrigued

By facts I mean facts we know about the human body and general facts of nature that the virus has to operate in. You can't have running zombies because there's the fundamental flaw of where do they get the energy from and how do they make their body operate way outside of possible physical limits of the tissues they're made out of.

It's the same for burning, it's just not within the realms of possibility that organic matter could survive that type of prolonged burning. Even if you were to put steel and rock in an incinerator they'd be vaporised. Even reducing that down to a managed fire you could insure all that's left afterwards is carbon.

I think maybe we should all research proper incineration techniques as part of our zombie survival preparation.

Evolute

ScumLord wrote: »

By facts I mean facts we know about the human body and general facts of nature that the virus has to operate in. You can't have running zombies because there's the fundamental flaw of where do they get the energy from and how do they make their body operate way outside of possible physical limits of the tissues they're made out of.

It's the same for burning, it's just not within the realms of possibility that organic matter could survive that type of prolonged burning. Even if you were to put steel and rock in an incinerator they'd be vaporised. Even reducing that down to a managed fire you could insure all that's left afterwards is carbon.

I think maybe we should all research proper incineration techniques as part of our zombie survival preparation.

Sounds like its an idea but the incineration your talking about isnt just lighting a big fire and throwing them in there could be unforseen contagents missed and it may or may not become airborne or even in the first few minutes of a burn gone bad. There are too many variables to consider to just throw away the chances of an airborne zombie virus we just dont know.
Lets face it not everyone is as good a pyro as yourself:p

Kromdar

but are there any viruses out there that can survive a decent incineration? i mean fire [in various intensities] kills most organic life. i suppose cockroaches would survive and all that, but burning corpses seems to be the answer for virus control in most instances, and zombies are little more than walking corpses.

NOGMaxpower

ScumLord wrote: »

Yes it would cause it to mutate into carbon.

Acid would be very good at disposing of bodies completely but it has many drawbacks, it's rare, it's always extremely dangerous, it's extremely costly to store and transport even in a resource economy. Fire is there when you need it and not a second before so is much safer.

Acid can be found in chemists/pharmacy - going there anyway fro first aid kits.

its only dangerous if you dont knwo what you're doing.

Costly to store and transport? Eh its Z day money doesn't matter any more.

Besides at this stage I am already looking for wholesale acid so i can plan its extraction.

NOGMaxpower

Acid is the only real way we can be sure for getting rid of a z's body safely. Back on topic of science.

1st up, get Hydrofuloric acid (can't remember spelling)
2nd, setup lab - 2 bed rooms linked by a make shift air duct. barrel of acid in one room and lab rats in the other. Drop the Z's body into the acid and see if lab rats turn into Zs.
3rd, a put 2nd Z body into empty barrel and ignite it. wait and see if it goes airborn.

based ont eh study above we'll know for sure if the virus can mutate in these conditions. Only problem about be to be 100% sure we'd need a human test subject in room B.

Nothing is fact until its proven under a test environment therefore anything is possible. To take any other slant on it is underestimating the Z's and ultimately spells our doom.

ScumLord

NOGMaxpower wrote: »

Acid can be found in chemists/pharmacy - going there anyway fro first aid kits.

its only dangerous if you dont knwo what you're doing.

Costly to store and transport? Eh its Z day money doesn't matter any more.

Besides at this stage I am already looking for wholesale acid so i can plan its extraction.

It is probably best to get your supply now or at least find out where the warehouse is so you can scavenge it on mass after Zday.

There will still be an economy or sorts after Zday, but it'll be a resource economy. Our limited resources will have to be managed and thought would have to be put into how those resources are spent. Even people would be seen as a skilled resource. If you think about the resources needed to transport, store and use acid it becomes expensive compared to fire.

Ginja Ninja

The scientific facts: 1) there are viruses than can survive temperature up to 400C
2) there are viruses[and bacteria] that can survive on the extremes of the pH scale[very acid or very alkali]
3)Viruses aren't "alive" per se,they are a gene in a protein coat,that's it.The only way to destroy a virus is to physically dismantle/alter its chemistry.
4) there are viruses that can survive in radioactive waste.
5) depending on the virus it can take anywhere from decades to hours for a virus to mutate
6) many/most viruses can live on surfaces/dormant in the air for extended periods of time[e.g cold/flu]

7) acids[unless in the high 90%'s don't work that fast,sure if you could keep the zombies in the pit for about a day they'd be gone.
8) acids are "used up" in dissolving something I.E only a Finite amount of zombies could be dissolved
9) what the F would you line the motte with? the acid would dissolve/flow away through the ground,only a few certain plastics don't dissolve in acid,the compounds made after dissolving a body might also effect the plastic.

Personally,I hope we get Max Brooks' zombies if it happens,at least they're easy to kill/outrun

ScumLord

Ginja Ninja wrote: »

The scientific facts: 1) there are viruses than can survive temperature up to 400C
2) there are viruses[and bacteria] that can survive on the extremes of the pH scale[very acid or very alkali]
3)Viruses aren't "alive" per se,they are a gene in a protein coat,that's it.The only way to destroy a virus is to physically dismantle/alter its chemistry.
4) there are viruses that can survive in radioactive waste.
5) depending on the virus it can take anywhere from decades to hours for a virus to mutate
6) many/most viruses can live on surfaces/dormant in the air for extended periods of time[e.g cold/flu]

7) acids[unless in the high 90%'s don't work that fast,sure if you could keep the zombies in the pit for about a day they'd be gone.
8) acids are "used up" in dissolving something I.E only a Finite amount of zombies could be dissolved
9) what the F would you line the motte with? the acid would dissolve/flow away through the ground,only a few certain plastics don't dissolve in acid,the compounds made after dissolving a body might also effect the plastic.

Personally,I hope we get Max Brooks' zombies if it happens,at least they're easy to kill/outrun

Thanks Ginja Ninja all very useful.

On point 1, the fire one. 400c is reality low, a typical fire ranges from 1000 - 2000c. That fire would be hot enough to kill the virus? Info from yahoo answers They can't be all that wrong. in fact they say a lit cigarette is 400c so possibly if you get a bite stub your cigar out on the wound (I assume we'll all be smoking bad ass cigars to enhance our toughness).

The virus could escape on clothing carried off in the heat of the fire maybe but that's where incinerator come in, an enclosed case to keep everything in.

I'll post pictures of the incinerator I've sourced for after the outbreak on Monday. I'm pretty sure it'll do the job.


On the acid thing, is there any facility/company that uses acid for dissolving things? If they had already made a facility for doing something like that it would be perfect. What is acid used for commercially? The only problem then would be transporting the zombies to that facility, bags not it!

Micky Dolenz

real interesting thread.

Lead tanks would be ideal for dissolving Zeds. Don't think we'll be using that much come Zed day+ though. Fire will destroy any and all viruses.

Also don't think it will become airborne, not for a long time anyway, how long has the HIV virus been around, 30 odd years.

What you haven't said Ginja Ninja is how long a virus can live without it's host, HIV is up to less than a day and others up to 6 days, given the perfect conditions. I think the chances of the virus polluting waterways and soil is nearly zero. although rotting corpes may be problem.

ScumLord

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Also don't think it will become airborne, not for a long time anyway, how long has the HIV virus been around, 30 odd years.

Although in fairness the HIV virus reproduces thew a completely different method. Can a virus that spreads through close contact (ie: bites or or sex) easily switch to another method of transfer?

Micky Dolenz

ScumLord wrote: »

Although in fairness the HIV virus reproduces thew a completely different method. Can a virus that spreads through close contact (ie: bites or or sex) easily switch to another method of transfer?

It may reproduce a different way, but it is still transmitted through contact of bodily fluid, the exact same way as the Z virus.

ScumLord

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

It may reproduce a different way, but it is still transmitted through contact of bodily fluid, the exact same way as the Z virus.

Yeah but you can't get aids by kissing/biting someone.... Or can you? I don't think you can??

If you can't I'd assume the flu virus is a much more aggressive or maybe resilient virus. The fact that the zombie virus passes through biting insinuates that the Zombie virus isn't all that resilient.

A virus that passes through saliva must be pretty tough though to survive in the human mouth of the living (the human mouth is one of the most hostile in the animal kingdom) although it wouldn't have to be so tough to survive in an undead's mouth as there's no saliva.

All very interesting, great thread NOGMaxpower!

Kromdar

ScumLord wrote: »

Yeah but you can't get aids by kissing/biting someone.... Or can you? I don't think you can??

4 pints of saliva. apparently. i can't remember who told us that, think it was on a first aid course. go figure.

that would want to be some smokin zombie lover to consume that much saliva.

though, boomers? what if the virus finds a way of propagating itself via bile and/or projectile vomiting? funny, yes, but an interesting defense mechanism - leeches vomit when they die, thereby infecting whatever they were attached to with whatever they have consumed. interesting 'martyrdom kill' technique... :P

still i'm in favor of the acid/fire approach, the 'dont light zombies on fire' rule still applies, but if you could lure them into an industrial furnace then why the hell not? they won't be walking out of it, thats for sure.

Ginja Ninja

on a serious note,YOU CAN GET AIDS/HIV FROM KISSING[very,very low chance but possible none the less]

It's quite possible the virus could transfer to airborne, compare it to the common cold.If the Z virus originates from the cold virus[es] it will mutate every couple of months ,that's why their's no cure for the cold,it changes far too rapidly.

I THINK BSE[mad cow disease] can survive in soil for up to 3 years,it's a bacteria but still.

Put simply[and I'm an optimist]:IF the Z-virus comes about and is as infectious as the flu/originates from it.We're all boned,think of it everyone who gets infected with the flu each year,suddenly becomes infected with Zombieness :eek:!

Acids[depending on which one] are used for standardising other compounds,used in SOME electro-plating[not zinc gates or silver stuff ,though] and some chemical alterations in pharmacutical companies[not in high concentrations from what I know]