What's critical in MMO development??

evil-monkey

Hi all,

As part of a project I'm doing for college, I'm interested in gathering some thoughts on what gamers would consider as critical to the success of an online game.

Thanks in advance.

neilk32

Well for me pvp would have to be the main aspect of the game but it has to be meaningful with full loot, no levels and the like. Also non-instanced too with no limits on numbers =]

Vertakill

neilk32 wrote: »

Well for me pvp would have to be the main aspect of the game but it has to be meaningful with full loot, no levels and the like. Also non-instanced too with no limits on numbers =]

How you propose to implement any of that and actually get people to play it (coz it sounds like a terrible idea that nobody would go for) is a whole different story.

So, you have no levelling which means the 'addictiveness' of the game is gone, therefore people have nothing to really strive for. There's no incentive/motivation to keep playing.

If your incentive was in PVP rewards, well then maybe. However, you think it should be full loot, which I'm assuming you mean, you can loot the corpse of the person you've just killed.

So there you are, the one thing that's keeping you subscribing every month is PvP in order to get yourself some shiney new weapon when you hit the heights of whatever PvP ladder there is until you finally get it, and then eircom disconnects you and some pleb wanders along and kills you and takes your items. Hooray!

Great idea.


Everyone has these these amazing and wonderful ideas, but most of them could never be practically implemented into a game that actually plans on turning a profit.

neilk32

Vertakill wrote: »

How you propose to implement any of that and actually get people to play it (coz it sounds like a terrible idea that nobody would go for) is a whole different story.

Vertakill have you been living under a rock for the last 12 years? Ever hear of Ultima Online , darkfall or mortal online. The main core of all these games is full loot and pvp. I'm pretty sure they are all great games well i haven't played mortal online but it sure has sold alot of pre-orders. You really need to stop playing your theme park mmo's and broaden your horizons.

evil-monkey

What about from a development point of view?? What are you guys most concerned with??

Quality of the coding??

Proper testing to ensure a lack of bugs??

What about performance issues? Is it important for MMOs to be developed with a focus on hardware? Anybody here ever been turned off a game they thought was amazing but didn't feel the performance was up to scratch??

Consider MMOs as what they are; pieces of software. What do we look for in software?? Do we look for the same things in online games??

Rev Hellfire

does what it says on the tin.

The content is more important than all the technical flash-bangery.

Hercule

I can think of a few things right off the bat that a lot of devs get wrong.

• Do not rush development - getting it right will take 5+ years - expect to have the same team working on the MMO for ~10 years.
  
• Do not outsource patching and customer support to a company that is not responsible for technical improvements to the game - e.g Mythic (the people that made Warhammer Online) support US customers, whereas we get some useless twats in EU who have to wait ~7 days for patches/fixes.
  
• Dont translate a Korean game from 2007 and expect western audiences to appreciate it.
  
• Dont advertise endgame content which isnt in the game at launch (massive sieges - epic PVP siege gameplay) Age of Conan and Warhammer: Online got these so very wrong - early PvP is basic and rewarding but high end stuff was just unfinished, unenjoyable and buggy zerg vs zerg
  
• Offer a "lifetime upgrade" package whereby you can purchase an unlimited subscription with all the benefits AFTER launch - Its a good way of securing cash after 6 months or so - only fools get lifetime subs to MMOs that are just released.
  
• Nobody reads quest dialogs - make em short or work out a system of getting the most important pieces of info across in as short as message as possible - none of this "3-4 pages of lore to go kill 5 rats" quests.
  
• Do not waste time on experimental tech - A DX11 MMO would be a farce. take a game engine from 3 years ago and tweak it to run as well as possible (unreal engine 3 MMOs plox)
  
• Palette swap monsters get boring - cant stand MMOs like Silkroad which will have 50 variations of tigers that are all the same model with different colours/sizes/stats - make original monsters where possible.
  

evil-monkey

Hercule wrote: »

• Do not outsource patching and customer support to a company that is not responsible for technical improvements to the game - e.g Mythic (the people that made Warhammer Online) support US customers, whereas we get some useless twats in EU who have to wait ~7 days for patches/fixes.
• Do not waste time on experimental tech - A DX11 MMO would be a farce. take a game engine from 3 years ago and tweak it to run as well as possible (unreal engine 3 MMOs plox)

Would like to highlight these two points.

Firstly, the subject of patching. What degree of patching do you consider acceptable? Is patching a sign of poor testing from the offing, or is it an inevitable part of development that cannot be avoided, in which case we're back to the question; what level of patching do you consider acceptable?

Secondly - experimental tech. Do you think that if the proper mechanisms were in place to ensure quality on such technology as DX11 as it was emerging, using them could prove a success rather than the failure that it is?

Venom

neilk32 wrote: »

Vertakill have you been living under a rock for the last 12 years? Ever hear of Ultima Online , darkfall or mortal online. The main core of all these games is full loot and pvp. I'm pretty sure they are all great games well i haven't played mortal online but it sure has sold alot of pre-orders. You really need to stop playing your theme park mmo's and broaden your horizons.

UO dosent count really as being the first proper MMO for the masses it could do what it liked due to no competition. Darkfall has been a disaster from day one with a tiny user base and it barely is even mentioned these days. Mortal Online is all talk until it goes live with its purposed feature set so again dosent count.

Full loot pvp MMO's are rare as hell as 95% of players dont want the hassle of losing all their time invested in the game due to one error or computer glitch.

Venom

Hercule wrote: »

I can think of a few things right off the bat that a lot of devs get wrong.

• Do not rush development - getting it right will take 5+ years - expect to have the same team working on the MMO for ~10 years.
  
• Do not outsource patching and customer support to a company that is not responsible for technical improvements to the game - e.g Mythic (the people that made Warhammer Online) support US customers, whereas we get some useless twats in EU who have to wait ~7 days for patches/fixes.
  
• Dont translate a Korean game from 2007 and expect western audiences to appreciate it.
  
• Dont advertise endgame content which isnt in the game at launch (massive sieges - epic PVP siege gameplay) Age of Conan and Warhammer: Online got these so very wrong - early PvP is basic and rewarding but high end stuff was just unfinished, unenjoyable and buggy zerg vs zerg
  
• Offer a "lifetime upgrade" package whereby you can purchase an unlimited subscription with all the benefits AFTER launch - Its a good way of securing cash after 6 months or so - only fools get lifetime subs to MMOs that are just released.
  
• Nobody reads quest dialogs - make em short or work out a system of getting the most important pieces of info across in as short as message as possible - none of this "3-4 pages of lore to go kill 5 rats" quests.
  
• Do not waste time on experimental tech - A DX11 MMO would be a farce. take a game engine from 3 years ago and tweak it to run as well as possible (unreal engine 3 MMOs plox)
  
• Palette swap monsters get boring - cant stand MMOs like Silkroad which will have 50 variations of tigers that are all the same model with different colours/sizes/stats - make original monsters where possible.
  

Pretty much agree 100% except for the expermental tech part. Yeah DX10 never took off but MMOs using DX10 did look much better than the DX9 version such as LOTRO but conan was just a cluster**** from the start so its DX10 tech is an unfair example to pick.

Tweaking old game engines is not the way to go tho as you get the like of Fallen Earth with an interesting idea but let down by crap Quake 2 style graphics.

For MMO developers the best thing to consider is for any amount of content you make expect it to be gone through 7 times faster than planned so adjust the plan accordingly And if your games launch is a disaster its game over as you will just never recover.

neilk32

Venom wrote: »

UO dosent count really as being the first proper MMO for the masses it could do what it liked due to no competition. Darkfall has been a disaster from day one with a tiny user base and it barely is even mentioned these days.

A disaster for who exactly? There is still a good playerbase on both servers and have a quick look over to mmorpg.com and look at popular games for the week month and then come back and say that It is the most talked about mmo and the most fun i have ever played. UO is still regarded as one of the best mmo's ever also , saying it could do what it like doesn't make sense since it was a great success.

Blazher

Its stimple.


Stroy story, with epic fights
Good loot thats HARD to get, So its earned
EPIC Team based PVP.

KoKane

Vertakill wrote: »

So there you are, the one thing that's keeping you subscribing every month is PvP in order to get yourself some shiney new weapon when you hit the heights of whatever PvP ladder there is until you finally get it, and then eircom disconnects you and some pleb wanders along and kills you and takes your items. Hooray!

Great idea.

Well thats an interesting post. You would have what is referred to as the Loser Syndrome. (I'm not having a dig at you btw)

I'll give an example of what I mean.

Although gear is not essential in Darkfall, apart from the obvious bare minimums, there is still a lot to be said for those who gear up to win, and those who gear up to not feel at loss when losing.

I used to do it. I used to gear up in half broken armour and ****ty weapons and then die. I'd come up with some excuse for the death and then remind myself "ah sure its grand, I just lost ****e anyway"...

Then as things changed, I go out in only the good stuff and then I get kills where I can see people who have that same mentality. Those very people would have a much better chance if they just shook off the fear..


I'd really recommend everyone try Darkfall at this point. (Huge Expansion today [thursday])
Try it. Dont ask someone about it.
Try it.

KoKane

Venom wrote: »

UO dosent count really as being the first proper MMO for the masses it could do what it liked due to no competition. Darkfall has been a disaster from day one with a tiny user base and it barely is even mentioned these days. Mortal Online is all talk until it goes live with its purposed feature set so again dosent count.

Full loot pvp MMO's are rare as hell as 95% of players dont want the hassle of losing all their time invested in the game due to one error or computer glitch.

Aye, UO was pretty much the first.
People were shocked at the violence and harshness in its style, so much so that they effectively "cried" for changes. Those changes shaped the game and the MMO industry. Things are still referred to as "Trammelized" etc.
Its unfortunate that there even existed enough people to "cry" for a change in a game which probably showed that there are people like that who would settle for WoW and the other generic level based MMOs just like it.

People are generally afraid at first, not everyone can adapt either.
Darkfall was a disaster on day 1 and for some time afterwards. I'm glad its all changed a few months ago, and the expansion today is looking to be sweet.

KoKane

evil-monkey wrote: »

Hi all,

As part of a project I'm doing for college, I'm interested in gathering some thoughts on what gamers would consider as critical to the success of an online game.

Thanks in advance.

To answer your thread/post:

What is critical to success is player interaction through reason or purpose. Naturally, more people prefer safer enviroments and as close to a "cant lose" type of game as possible.

Vertakill

neilk32 wrote: »

Vertakill have you been living under a rock for the last 12 years? Ever hear of Ultima Online , darkfall or mortal online. The main core of all these games is full loot and pvp. I'm pretty sure they are all great games well i haven't played mortal online but it sure has sold alot of pre-orders. You really need to stop playing your theme park mmo's and broaden your horizons.

No, I haven't been living under a rock... although some would argue that playing MMO's for the last 12 years isn't far from it.

Did you even read what I wrote by the way?
I'll reiterate my main point. I'm talking about making a long lasting profitable game as the OP used the word 'successful'.

A 'successful' MMO isn't one that's just geared to hardcore gamers (full loot and pvp), it's one that appeals to the masses.
I'd love to get rid of the carebear bs that's riddled through most MMO's nowadays (no XP penalties for dying etc) but unfortunately, if they did, it'd probably just be me and you playing on the servers with a handful of others.

Unfortunately, WoW has influenced/brainwashed an astronomical amount of potential customers nowadays so that has to be taken into account now.
I imagine the majority of the teenagers that were playing Ultima Online have no doubt gotten married with kids by now so they're not the target audience.

Also, I take most of what's on MMORPG.com with a pinch of salt. I've been visiting that site for years and I don't buy half the **** they say. They go completely bat **** on hyping up some unreleased games and they turn out to be absolute garbage.

Anyways, apologies to the OP if I derailed this a little.

- Enough quests available to get through each level (unlike in Aion where you can only get about 70% of a level with every new level's quests and then you've got to grind the remainder)

- Big rewards for PvP'ing and ability to level from PvP kills/rewards etc.

- Have large PvP zones with capturable nodes/forts/castles that have an impact on the actual ingame world to incentivise it(whether it's taxes or unlocking certain dungeons/instances/zones)

- The ability to own buildings (and a large enough world to be able to handle that). Whether it be houses or guild halls or your own private shop where your goods are on sale. (SWG'ish)

- Lore. Just enough to get by (to satisfy the RP'rs) without boring or confusing the crap out of the average player or making them read or sit through ridiculously long scenes that have little or no bearing.

- Up to date graphics (don't have to be groundbreaking) with longevity in mind.

- Not rushed to release. Most would rather wait for a finished product than try play an unfinished one, get pissed off at all the problems, and then quit.

Vertakill

KoKane wrote: »

Well thats an interesting post. You would have what is referred to as the Loser Syndrome. (I'm not having a dig at you btw)

I'll give an example of what I mean.

Although gear is not essential in Darkfall, apart from the obvious bare minimums, there is still a lot to be said for those who gear up to win, and those who gear up to not feel at loss when losing.

I used to do it. I used to gear up in half broken armour and ****ty weapons and then die. I'd come up with some excuse for the death and then remind myself "ah sure its grand, I just lost ****e anyway"...

Then as things changed, I go out in only the good stuff and then I get kills where I can see people who have that same mentality. Those very people would have a much better chance if they just shook off the fear..

Well, I don't really see how you thought that wouldn't be considered offensive but... I'm not going to bite.

I didn't say I had that attitude at all. You will struggle to find a more competitive person than I am and I strive to be the best at any game, on any server that I play on.
I've never even heard of this so-called 'The Loser Syndrome' before. I just consider the types of players you described as bad. Maybe it's a term that was invented by bad players? :P

My point is that there isn't as many outright hardcore players as there is other types (casual to moderate).

Also, hardcore gamers will be the most annoying types of gamer for the MMO companies seeing as they pay just as much as the casual joe soap does, except the hardcore player will very rarely be offline, will complain incessantly about everything not meeting their needs and is probably a bad influence to the average player on a whole.

Kiith

I had a big post written about what i thought was critical for the development of an online game, but then i realised that i was just listing off features that i'd like to see in my ideal online game. None of which are critical for the success of any game. There's a few basic things that are critical (marketing, community, communication, updates etc...), and if these are done well, regardless of the type of online game you have, it will be succesful.

Now i dont necessarily mean successful like World of Warcaft has been successful. I think we are all aware of how Warcraft has been an exception compared to all other mmo's. Unfortunatly, a lot of people will look at the amount of users in a game, compare it to Warcraft's, and declare that the game is a failure because they dont have the population of a mid sized country. And thats without even giving the game a go.

RopeDrink wrote: »

It's increasingly hard to balance it all out but if people manage to do this and give a welcoming sense of community then that also gives more desire to play and stay within the game - Joining a game or trying to get involved in discussions regarding it, only to be shot down by senseless insulting **** children, feeling ignored by the powers that be or unchecked masses wreaking havok are not going to encourage anyone to stay too long.

And this is the main reason why Warcraft is as successful as it is today.

evil-monkey

Kiith wrote: »

Unfortunatly, a lot of people will look at the amount of users in a game, compare it to Warcraft's, and declare that the game is a failure because they dont have the population of a mid sized country. And thats without even giving the game a go.

Very very true. But is an MMO not heavily dependent on a high population for it to function properly? Not just because of revenue, but the whole nature of these games rely on people playing together...

evil-monkey

Thanks for all the replies so far.

So that I've got data to back up a lot of what was discussed here, I need as many people as possible to take the following survey. I’m looking for at least 100 respondents. The survey is relevant to anyone who plays online video games, or anyone who has even a vague interest or opinion in relation to the entertainment software industry. The survey only takes a few minutes (only 10 questions), and all responses will be greatly appreciated.
Also, please forward the link to anyone you know that might be a relevant respondent.

http://thewafflefactory.wordpress.co...n-mmo-success/

Thanks again