Floods: Who is responsible?

blue5000

I know it has rained a lot, we've had just over 300mm of rain this month (so far) but somebody should be responsible for the river shannon, who is it, anybody got any ideas who? People in Galway are going through hell.

johngalway

OPW? Or what ever their particular incarnation is called now.

Up to the Guberment to do large civil projects like drainage IMO, we pay taxes for things like that. 12 years of... waste.

Birdnuts

johngalway wrote: »

OPW? Or what ever their particular incarnation is called now.

Up to the Guberment to do large civil projects like drainage IMO, we pay taxes for things like that. 12 years of... waste.

Dredging/draining rivers is not the answer. Dredging simply moves the problem downstream(often to the nearest town), increases flow rates which in turn increases erosion, doing even more damage and also has a catastrophic effect on fisheries and other forms of biodiversity that depend on intact rivers. It also puts even more pressure on dams further downstream.

Apart from bad planning up and down the country one of the obvious reasons for the severity of these floods is the over drainage of marginal farmlands that were created through the destruction of raised bogs and turloughs(which incidently were at their most impressive in the currently flooded areas of galway before mass drainage schemes destroyed the majority of them). Intact bogs and turloughs have an immense capacity to soak up excess rainfall and realease it slowly over time keeping water levels in rivers and lakes stable during periods of droughts or heavy prolonged rainfall.
Of course the environmental luddites in the IFA would never admit this since many of their members have engaged in the destruction of these wetlands over the years and lobbied hard against their protection as SAC's and the like. The activities of Bord na Mona since the 40's have also added hugely to this problem. Going back to the old ways of arterial drainage and the like would be a disaster for the Irish Environment and add to the problems of coping with a climate that appears to be getting more unpredictable and certainly wetter in terms of increasingly common and severe rainfall/flooding events.

irish_bob

Birdnuts wrote: »

Dredging/draining rivers is not the answer. Dredging simply moves the problem downstream(often to the nearest town), increases flow rates which in turn increases erosion, doing even more damage and also has a catastrophic effect on fisheries and other forms of biodiversity that depend on intact rivers. It also puts even more pressure on dams further downstream.

Apart from bad planning up and down the country one of the obvious reasons for the severity of these floods is the over drainage of marginal farmlands that were created through the destruction of raised bogs and turloughs(which incidently were at their most impressive in the currently flooded areas of galway before mass drainage schemes destroyed the majority of them). Intact bogs and turloughs have an immense capacity to soak up excess rainfall and realease it slowly over time keeping water levels in rivers and lakes stable during periods of droughts or heavy prolonged rainfall.
Of course the environmental luddites in the IFA would never admit this since many of their members have engaged in the destruction of these wetlands over the years and lobbied hard against their protection as SAC's and the like. The activities of Bord na Mona since the 40's have also added hugely to this problem. Going back to the old ways of arterial drainage and the like would be a disaster for the Irish Environment and add to the problems of coping with a climate that appears to be getting more unpredictable and certainly wetter in terms of increasingly common and severe rainfall/flooding events.

some excellent points there

a better question might be , what is responsible for the floods , only a fool could possibly deny that the weather has become wetter , i often hear replys of , we had heavy rain like this in the past , well not according to the statistics , we didnt , with five weeks still to go , 2009 is already the wettest year on record , the previous record belongs to 2008

Ex Bouncer

Claregalway was a disaster area last week, from Thursday 19/11/2009 right up to the 26th. Impassible, businessess reporting a drop of 70%. many cars were written off and some houses will have to be knocked due to foundation breach. Its beyond me why this flood water could not have been pumped into silage containers or tankers and the bridge sandbagged, if this not possible to do can someone explain why, as there is a possibility of more flooding next week.

kfk

Ex Bouncer wrote: »

Claregalway was a disaster area last week, from Thursday 19/11/2009 right up to the 26th. Impassible, businessess reporting a drop of 70%. many cars were written off and some houses will have to be knocked due to foundation breach. Its beyond me why this flood water could not have been pumped into silage containers or tankers and the bridge sandbagged, if this not possible to do can someone explain why, as there is a possibility of more flooding next week.

The volume of water would be too much for tankers to handle. Where would they dump the water?

Tipsy Mac

In the vast majority of cases only one thing is responsible and here it is

pakalasa

It's climate change isn't it. That's the main reason for the flooding.
I agree with Birdnuts that marginal land can effectively act as a sponge holding excess rain and slowly releasing but that only has a limited effect.
Look at the reality of what happened here - a multiple of the average amount, up to 600% in some places fell in about a week. No drainage improovements can cope with that.
How bad is it really going to get and what are the implications for agriculture not just in this country, but worldwide. We're no longer sitting on grain mountains. Time will tell.

I noticed in this weeks Farmers Journal that Paddy O'Keefe didn't even mention the flooding...:D:D:D

blue5000

irish_bob wrote: »

some excellent points there

a better question might be , what is responsible for the floods , only a fool could possibly deny that the weather has become wetter , i often hear replys of , we had heavy rain like this in the past , well not according to the statistics , we didnt , with five weeks still to go , 2009 is already the wettest year on record , the previous record belongs to 2008

Yeah, I agree, I've been recording rainfall for about 15 yrs, normally we get about 1000mm, last yr and this year we had that much got by end of October. I think the reason for it is that the atlantic is warmer than it was leading to higher evaporation, warm wet air then losing the moisture when it hits landfall.

I think there are too many gov bodies in charge on the shannon, there was heavy rain for two weeks before the shannon flooded, it is not being managed properly imo.

irish_bob

pakalasa wrote: »

It's climate change isn't it. That's the main reason for the flooding.
I agree with Birdnuts that marginal land can effectively act as a sponge holding excess rain and slowly releasing but that only has a limited effect.
Look at the reality of what happened here - a multiple of the average amount, up to 600% in some places fell in about a week. No drainage improovements can cope with that.
How bad is it really going to get and what are the implications for agriculture not just in this country, but worldwide. We're no longer sitting on grain mountains. Time will tell.

I noticed in this weeks Farmers Journal that Paddy O'Keefe didn't even mention the flooding...:D:D:D

paddy o keefe is an embarrassment when it comes to this subject which is a pity as he is a scholar and sharp as a tac on every other subject from the economy to farming policy , a letter writer to the editor put him in his box a few weeks back


p.s , im not entireley convinced man is behind climate change , that is another question

spoutwell

When you've got the gards out directing traffic around a 'very large' pothole (Morning Ireland a few days ago) you can be sure that the drainage system of the country has been neglected for a very long time.

Birdnuts

Tipsy Mac wrote: »

In the vast majority of cases only one thing is responsible and here it is

Sad but true as my report copied below from the Kildare Forum illustrates:

Bad flooding situation in Johnstown yesterday evening with a number of approach roads flooded. Even worse is the severe flooding of a local factory near the Morrell river, plus some houses in Johnstown Grove now under imminent threat with water continuing to rise. Spoke to someone who works in the factory and they are livid cos this is the second time this has happened since houses were built in what was a marshy area behind the factory that used to take excess water from the river during times of flood.It looks like jobs could be under threat because the site is no longer viable to insure and the damage already done is immense. The same story with Johnstown Grove housing estate which was built on an obvious floodplain ten years ago and has flooded a number of times since. Certain local councillors from the major parties have alot to answer for in regards to the rash of inappropriate land rezonings that have taken place in Johnstown since the mid 90's.

PS: You wouldn't mind but 15 years ago Johnstown Garden centre has to be moved across the M7 because it was built too near the river

CJhaughey

How about holding the councillors responsible for rezoning these areas responsible?
Can civil actions not be taken against them?
Until people are held accountable for their actions then nothing will change.
The same old story across the whole society.

John_F

pakalasa wrote: »

It's climate change isn't it. That's the main reason for the flooding.
I agree with Birdnuts that marginal land can effectively act as a sponge holding excess rain and slowly releasing but that only has a limited effect.
Look at the reality of what happened here - a multiple of the average amount, up to 600% in some places fell in about a week. No drainage improovements can cope with that.

climate change is just a load of baloney, sure the climate is changing but we cannot blame man for all the worlds problems.... if it was due to carbon emissions then it would have happened during the industrial revolution would it not. and how does one explain the ice age and the melting of the ice age when there wasnt an oucnce of coal being burned?

and when you put a shopping centre and car park in a field that would usually hold water...i.e. river view shopping centre and lidil bandon, then the water isnt going to soak. the amount of development that went on that shouldnt have is part of the problem in my view

Aru

Building on flood plains hasnt helped

pakalasa

John_F wrote: »

climate change is just a load of baloney, sure the climate is changing but we cannot blame man for all the worlds problems

....another Paddy O'Keefe fan. There's an overwhelming body of evidence to support global warming. It always amazes me that people believe what they want to believe and dismiss all these scientists who have been studying this problem, in numerous institutions and universities in many countries, for a long number of years now.

It was the same with the Irish property bubble. Every economist worth their salt (who's wages were not paid by Irish banks) was predicting a crash yet wise ole Paddy knew better!
Have you not being in this country for the last 3 years - there is something seriously wrong with the weather.:mad:

mfays

300mm in such a short space of time-how does anyone prepare for that!

John_F

pakalasa wrote: »

....another Paddy O'Keefe fan. There's an overwhelming body of evidence to support global warming. It always amazes me that people believe what they want to believe and dismiss all these scientists who have been studying this problem, in numerous institutions and universities in many countries, for a long number of years now.

It was the same with the Irish property bubble. Every economist worth their salt (who's wages were not paid by Irish banks) was predicting a crash yet wise ole Paddy knew better!
Have you not being in this country for the last 3 years - there is something seriously wrong with the weather.:mad:

sorry?????? I am not for one second a Paddy O' Keefe fan, in fact i think he is latching too much on to the whole cross breeding and i'm sick of him just typing out curtins farm reports that i can get on the internet if i want them.

yes but is it not true that if some one keeps telling you something you end up thinking it is true? Who is paying these scientists? state and semi state agencies are the employers. all governments seek new sectors to create jobs>employment>taxes and is it any coincidence that by having the worlds temperatures warm up then that would convince the public that they should pay a carbon tax?

Do you know that many of the worlds temperature recordings are taken at airports and built up areas? these then suffer from heat pollution. A recording station at Rome is in direct line with the aircraft landing strip... is there heat from a 747? also there are photos of weather stations located next to air conditioning units and on asphalt car parks. surfacestations.org has a map showing that the bulk of the US surface stations surveyed so far reveal incorrect records reading in excess of 2 degrees. the US network is meant to be the highest quality in the world??? and this data used to record temperature???

Another point to add is that an antarctic weather station that showed the highest warming trend was in fact buried in snow in 2006. Snow traps heat (Inuit people found igloos cosy) so the weather station (and many more) could be reading the warmth of its own electronics!!!

There was an ice age and now there isn't?? is that global warming or nature?

i recommend you look into it a bit more, http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/21/science/earth/21climate.html

I dont see the link with the property bubble and climate change. i see more of a link with cinenatology and climate change :cool:

People used think the world was flat

John_F

and yes i have been in the country in the past 3 years. i didn't personally think 2007 was a bad year but 2008 and 2009 are. Who's to say 2010 will be a good year. there have been many bad years in the past. i just wish people wouldn't latch on to anything just so they can put a reason on it

anyway wer gone totally off the point on this post

Sam Kade

pakalasa wrote: »

....another Paddy O'Keefe fan. There's an overwhelming body of evidence to support global warming. It always amazes me that people believe what they want to believe and dismiss all these scientists who have been studying this problem, in numerous institutions and universities in many countries, for a long number of years now.

It was the same with the Irish property bubble. Every economist worth their salt (who's wages were not paid by Irish banks) was predicting a crash yet wise ole Paddy knew better!
Have you not being in this country for the last 3 years - there is something seriously wrong with the weather.:mad:

It's called climate change now not global warming. Did you hear about climategate yet?

red menace

http://www.fwi.co.uk/Articles/2009/12/02/119018/Floods-leave-farmland-under-millions-of-tonnes-of-gravel.htm

Bad news there for them farmers unexpected side effect

irish_bob

pakalasa wrote: »

....another Paddy O'Keefe fan. There's an overwhelming body of evidence to support global warming. It always amazes me that people believe what they want to believe and dismiss all these scientists who have been studying this problem, in numerous institutions and universities in many countries, for a long number of years now.

It was the same with the Irish property bubble. Every economist worth their salt (who's wages were not paid by Irish banks) was predicting a crash yet wise ole Paddy knew better!
Have you not being in this country for the last 3 years - there is something seriously wrong with the weather.:mad:

farmers are suspicious creatures when it comes to any kind of new found theorys , they will on one hand despair at the level of rainfall this past few years and never stop complaining about it but if anyone mentions the likes of climate change , the eyes will squint and a veneer of deep scepticism will come across from them , they tend to be slow to accept what they see as airy fairy egg headed science stuff

quietsailor

An earlier poster mentioned draing the bogs/turloughs. Along with this we've (man/humanity/farming/industry) added more problems because we use the earth a lot more than for example 10,000 years ago.

1. More buildings are on it now so that reduces the amount of bare earth available to soak up rainwater - so it ends up in the rivers.
2. The land is more compacted, machinery and animals travel across the land more today than ever so the land compacts and again the water cannot soak into the earth

.

Unfortunately we can't go backwards and reduce the population of humans, animals and buildings so we're going to have to accept the new order and get on with ways of dealing with it.

(sits back and waits for floods of abuse from farmers who're going to say I'm blaming them for the world's ills)

red menace

Its more than just farm buildings it's roads yards shopping centres.
I agree theres not much can be done about it now.
Maybe flood prevention is the start of the next boom... I for one will be doing my homework on stormwater and flood defenses

red menace

This stuff is amazing, eats water:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScsQYHMfabU&feature=related


depends on proper drainage underneath.
Interesting video on laying this there also