Time to fully adopt new system

kowloon

I don't know if there is a plan or if it has been discussed, but is there an expected time to full adoption of the new licensing system? Or will this be dragging out for for the forseeable future? When do we think will normal activities resume?

Dvs

kowloon wrote: »

I don't know if there is a plan or if it has been discussed, but is there an expected time to full adoption of the new licensing system? Or will this be dragging out for for the forseeable future?

Three years, then start at the beginning again,
The administrative version of painting the Sydney harbour bridge.

kowloon wrote: »

When do we think will normal activities resume?

Surely you Jest!
This is the new improved normal.........


Dvs.

johngalway

Probably about five years past the start date of the next system.

CJhaughey

Looking at those firearms certs in the new card format, I can't help thinking that they are only a stopgap measure.
They look really cheap the Garda logo is almost illegible and they don't have any photo on them.
My sense tells me that they were acting under time constraints due to the effectively unplanned and hasty introduction of the new system and just printed them with whatever method came in cheap and fast.
I would not be surprised if they were withdrawn and replaced with plastic photcard ID type licenses in the future.
I sincerely hope so as the addition of a photo would make them much harder to be used by anyone else.

rrpc

CJhaughey wrote: »

Looking at those firearms certs in the new card format, I can't help thinking that they are only a stopgap measure.
They look really cheap the Garda logo is almost illegible and they don't have any photo on them.
My sense tells me that they were acting under time constraints due to the effectively unplanned and hasty introduction of the new system and just printed them with whatever method came in cheap and fast.
I would not be surprised if they were withdrawn and replaced with plastic photcard ID type licenses in the future.
I sincerely hope so as the addition of a photo would make them much harder to be used by anyone else.

A photo won't be on them, the Gardai believe that a lost licence would too easily become stolen firearms with an identifiable photo on it.

Dvs

rrpc wrote: »

A photo won't be on them, the Gardai believe that a lost licence would too easily become stolen firearms with an identifiable photo on it.

So are you saying that you and the Garda believe a criminal cannot read the name and address on the licence and do the same, they need a photo to identify you?

What a fantastic security feature.............

Dvs.

rrpc

Dvs wrote: »

So are you saying that you and the Garda believe a criminal cannot read the name and address on the licence and do the same, they need a photo to identify you?

What a fantastic security feature.............

Dvs.

Did I say I believed that? I'd say it's more likely that the system wasn't capable of printing a photo on the card and that there wasn't enough room anyway.

I don't believe it's worth the trouble. This was discussed here a good while ago and the only reason people could come up with for needing a photo was in the case that your licence was stolen and used to buy ammo. There's a better case to be made for having a photo on a credit card and that doesn't happen either.

Grizzly 45

Thinking about thais abit.Maybe because with the Garda logo on it and a pic...In might look abit too "officious" as well to those not in the know,who might mistake it for a warrant card,or be used as such by somone less than honest???How many people know what a Garda warrant card look like??Just a theory of mine.

Dvs

rrpc wrote: »

Did I say I believed that? I'd say it's more likely that the system wasn't capable of printing a photo on the card and that there wasn't enough room anyway.

I don't believe it's worth the trouble. This was discussed here a good while ago and the only reason people could come up with for needing a photo was in the case that your licence was stolen and used to buy ammo. There's a better case to be made for having a photo on a credit card and that doesn't happen either.

You stated that a photo won't be on them, supported by

rrpc wrote: »

the Gardai believe that a lost licence would too easily become stolen firearms with an identifiable photo on it.

as if it was based on reasonable fact, backed up by the opinion of the Garda and you did not state that it was incorrect in your opinion.

rrpc wrote: »

I don't believe it's worth the trouble. This was discussed here a good while ago and the only reason people could come up with for needing a photo was in the case that your licence was stolen and used to buy ammo.

And thats not a reason that should concern the DOJ and the Garda,
Its the same situation that existed with the old licence format, but if the Minister for Justice and Garda Commissioner are claiming that this is a improved system, why has this single, simple, reasonable improvement not been made?

rrpc wrote: »

I'd say it's more likely that the system wasn't capable of printing a photo on the card and that there wasn't enough room anyway.

Then how does every other body in the country and the rest of the world, that issues photo credit card sized I.D. manage to do it?

The truth is this entire so called improvements to the firearms act and the firearms licensing system, was an Irish solution to an Irish problem that didnt exist, driven by people that have absolutely no idea of what they were and are talking about in relation to legally held firearms, the Minister for Justice and the Garda Commissioner, who have both stated on the record that the distinction between legally held licensed firearms in the hands of law abiding citzens, and illegally held weapons in the hands of criminals is irrelevant or confusing to them, and failed to ask the people that might have had some sensible input that would have helped the Garda to administer the system efficently and assisted sport shooters in complying with reasonable clearly defined requirements implemented evenly across the country, namely the Garda officers dealing with firearms applications in the Garda stations around the country and sports shooters themselves.

Dvs.

rrpc

Dvs wrote: »

You stated that a photo won't be on them, supported byas if it was based on reasonable fact, backed up by the opinion of the Garda and you did not state that it was incorrect in your opinion.

I stated the reason given when asked. I didn't editorialise on that reason and my response was to a post stating that the photo would make them more difficult to be used by someone else. I honestly don't believe it would be much of a benefit and others here when it was discussed at length came to the same conclusion. You're entitled to your opinion, just as I am.

And thats not a reason that should concern the DOJ and the Garda,
Its the same situation that existed with the old licence format, but if the Minister for Justice and Garda Commissioner are claiming that this is a improved system, why has this single, simple, reasonable improvement not been made?

I don't see it as being much of an improvement. There are far better things that could have been done with the licence than putting a photo on it. No. 1 would be having one licence for all your firearms.

Then how does every other body in the country and the rest of the world, that issues photo credit card sized I.D. manage to do it?

Maybe because they're ID cards and don't have to have information like number of rounds, make and model of firearm and other conditions on them. Oddly enough we don't actually have any comparable system in this country to what you're asking for. Driving licence: no, credit card: no, insurance cert: no. In fact the only things we have a photo on are all bigger than a credit card.

Dvs

rrpc wrote: »

I stated the reason given when asked. I didn't editorialise on that reason and my response was to a post stating that the photo would make them more difficult to be used by someone else. I honestly don't believe it would be much of a benefit and others here when it was discussed at length came to the same conclusion. You're entitled to your opinion, just as I am.

I don't see it as being much of an improvement. There are far better things that could have been done with the licence than putting a photo on it. No. 1 would be having one licence for all your firearms.

Maybe because they're ID cards and don't have to have information like number of rounds, make and model of firearm and other conditions on them. Oddly enough we don't actually have any comparable system in this country to what you're asking for. Driving licence: no, credit card: no, insurance cert: no. In fact the only things we have a photo on are all bigger than a credit card.

Indeed you and others here that came to the same conclusion, are entitled to your opinion.

However,
the fact that passports have a photo of the holder of the passport for means of identification, and that identification of an individual from an image either video or photo is legally accepted in court, and the development and use of facial recognition software to identify people, seems to indicate that those who believe that a photo of an individual being used as a means of identification is not a good idea are in a minority.

I have photo I.D. which has more info on it.
It is not technically impossible, even a stand alone PC with a photo scanner and card printer could do it, at least two posters on this forum I know of, could write software to make it work with the pulse system.

In the real world, security clearance photo I.D. can be produce in 90 seconds, including taking your photo.

Driving licences in many countries are just this format,
if your saying that the Irish government is incapable of making a credit card sized firearms licence then they could have made it bigger the DOJ/Garda decided that it would be credit card sized.

I agree with and supported and lobbied for, the one firearms licence idea with a single 80 euro fee, in line with our nearest neighbour.

It probably makes far too much sense, and would not have the bully boy tactic credentials to make the grade, law abiding sports shooters would not be forced to give up firearms for no other reason than, because of the state sponsored extortion with multiple 80 euro fees which they face now.

Dvs.

rrpc

We're probably in agreement here Dvs, the difference being a matter of degree. As a security mechanism, the Gardai decided that name, address and DOB were enough to identify the holder of a firearms cert for their purposes. From our point of view, the issue is just a bit academic as there's not much benefit to us either way. Not enough to get thumping on the table, apoplectic and incoherent about anyway

Dvs

rrpc wrote: »

Not enough to get thumping on the table, apoplectic and incoherent about anyway

The time for table thumping was missed by those that claimed to be sorting everything out on our behalf, they were more prone to narcolepsy than apoplexy, and silence than incoherence.


Dvs.

PJ Hunter

Then how does every other body in the country and the rest of the world, that issues photo credit card sized I.D. manage to do it?

there sent to the printers.:rolleyes:

Handgun Ownership Restricted
Canada, with a population of 31 million, limits possession of handguns to collectors, target shooters and those who can demonstrate a need of guns to protect their lives.


This sample is a non-restricted registration for a Winchester Model 70 rifle.

Traumadoc

If there is no photo on the card, why did we have to give a photo with the application?

In Australia, you get your picture taken at the postoffice when you pay for the licence.

rrpc

I wouldn't be holding the Canadian system up as a shining light to the rest of the world. It's been a complete disaster from the word go. A system that in 1995 was originally expected to cost in the region of two million dollars net was estimated to cost $629,000,000 by 2002 and still rising. At that time the breakdown of costs were:

$2 million to help police enforce legislation.
At least $60 million for public-relations programs, including television commercials ($18 million of which went to ad agency GroupAction, which received millions in sponsorship scandal contracts).
$227 million in computer costs. Complicated application forms are slowing processing times and driving costs higher than anticipated.
$332 million for other programming costs, including money to pay staff to process the forms.

By 2005 it was expected to cost $1 billion dollars with an offset of $140 million dollars for registration fees.

Photos on the licence were the least of their problems :rolleyes:

Sparks

Not to mention that all the canadian ISSF shooters we've met think their system is a complete nonsense of a design even without all the cost overruns from the implementation problems...

rrpc

Sparks wrote: »

Not to mention that all the canadian ISSF shooters we've met think their system is a complete nonsense of a design even without all the cost overruns from the implementation problems...

+1

And I forgot to mention that it doesn't work, parts of it (the long-gun registry for shotguns and rifles) are now being scrapped and a fee waiver is expected to cost another $15 million per annum :eek:

Sparks

(And I should probably mention that the non-ISSF shooters all seem to be saying the same thing in Canada, it's just that I've not actually met them)

Dvs

Traumadoc wrote: »

If there is no photo on the card, why did we have to give a photo with the application?

It's just another thing designed to make applicants say I have to get photos now and give them to the Garda to put on file like I was a criminal?
to hell with that.....

One less licenced firearm = result

Dvs.