Military Personnel at Govt Buildings

muppet01

During the national day of action last week the army assisted in the security of govt buildings.Following this should they not continue this duty as:

A: Gardai are released for other duties
B: Military personnel not on UN or cash escort duty are not up to much
C: Army personnnel in dress uniform on such duties are promoting the defence forces in recruitment and public image

gizmo555

Isn't there a permanent military police presence at Leinster House and Government Buildings anyway?

muppet01

you could be right but they were front of house so to speak on tues.Im sure theres legal issues in relation to detention etc which would always require a garda but you have the same situation at the airport

Poccington

muppet01 wrote: »

During the national day of action last week the army assisted in the security of govt buildings.Following this should they not continue this duty as:

A: Gardai are released for other duties
B: Military personnel not on UN or cash escort duty are not up to much
C: Army personnnel in dress uniform on such duties are promoting the defence forces in recruitment and public image

Not up to much if we're not Overseas or on a Cash? I mist be in the wrong Unit altogether.

gizmo555 wrote: »

Isn't there a permanent military police presence at Leinster House and Government Buildings anyway?

Yes.

BrianD

Military Police guard the inside of the Leinster House complex every night.

I presume that they would have the power of arrest or at least to detain a person before handing them over to the Gardai.

slapper

muppet01 wrote: »

you could be right but they were front of house so to speak on tues.Im sure theres legal issues in relation to detention etc which would always require a garda but you have the same situation at the airport

theres been some change in that recently afaik

neilled

gizmo555 wrote: »

Isn't there a permanent military police presence at Leinster House and Government Buildings anyway?

There is, and this information is publicly available, you just need to know where to look.

gizmo555

neilled wrote: »

There is, and this information is publicly available, you just need to know where to look.

Actually, I just found this very complimentary piece by Shane Ross on an usher in Leinster House who formerly guarded the building as a military policeman. I particularly liked this bit:

Mick served in the Congo as a teenager back in the Sixties. He came from an Army family and naturally enough headed for the forces. He says that he always regarded himself as “an ambassador for my country” when abroad with the Army.

Luckily, he was out there before the Niemba Massacre, where nine Irish soldiers died in an ambush, but a colleague who flew to Portugal with him recently tells of Mick’s reaction when they hit turbulence. The colleague expressed fear of flying, but Mick retorted that it was “not as bad as flying into the Congo, sitting on a box of ammunition and being fired at by the Balubas”.

http://www.shane-ross.ie/archives/523/ushering-in-my-new-respect/

coach23

Leinster house is a military building and mp's are there permanently anything that happens inside is technically there responsibility as military law applies but in a weird way so does civil law so they just let that gardai deal with it. Considering they are already there i think they should take a more obvious and active role in its policing as up to 14 gardai can be tied up there at anyone time. having maybe 4 gardai and the rest army would serve both systems of law mp's to control access and egress and internal security and gardai to control outside (rolling beats) and investigation of any crimes that happen assisted by mp's who are actually very well qualified and very able.

having worn both a green and now a blue uniform i can safely say that the lads are not doing nothing while not on cash or U.N. duty give them some credit it's a common misconception

ex_infantry man

coach23 wrote: »

having worn both a green and now a blue uniform i can safely say that the lads are not doing nothing while not on cash or U.N. duty give them some credit it's a common misconception

i am a former member of sp coy 3rd inf bn and the daily thing that we were told to do was to disappear for the day as there was nothing for us to do so it aint a misconception its the plain truth

arybvtcw0eolkf

ex_infantry man wrote: »

i am a former member of sp coy 3rd inf bn and the daily thing that we were told to do was to disappear for the day as there was nothing for us to do so it aint a misconception its the plain truth

You've already admitted on this forum that you hardly spent a wet day in the Defence Forces before leaving for civilian employment, tbh I give you very little credibilty for anything you've said about the defence forces on this forum.

To answer the OP's question, there's a full garrison of Military Police in both Government Buildings and Leinster House including a detachment of regular infantry personnel who provide a fire piquet duty.

As for your comments about the Defence Forces not on UN or escort duties not being up to much, I'll treat that we the same contempt I give to someone who couldn't hack it in the Curragh and has hardly stopped using this forum to whinge about it since.

Poccington

ex_infantry man wrote: »

i am a former member of sp coy 3rd inf bn and the daily thing that we were told to do was to disappear for the day as there was nothing for us to do so it aint a misconception its the plain truth

Well then your Unit was run by wasters.

In my Unit funnily enough, we train when we're not on duty. So no, it's not the plain truth.

ex_infantry man

Charli Fat Larva wrote: »

You've already admitted on this forum that you hardly spent a wet day in the Defence Forces before leaving for civilian employment, tbh I give you very little credibilty for anything you've said about the defence forces on this forum.

To answer the OP's question, there's a full garrison of Military Police in both Government Buildings and Leinster House including a detachment of regular infantry personnel who provide a fire piquet duty.

As for your comments about the Defence Forces not on UN or escort duties not being up to much, I'll treat that we the same contempt I give to someone who couldn't hack it in the Curragh and has hardly stopped using this forum to whinge about it since.

sp coy is in kilkenny and not the curragh

muppet01

It was i who made the quote re cash escorts etc and i stand by it in relation to the common public perception NOT the normal day to day business of the defence forces.Many thanks to post by "coach" which was informative and helped get the ball rolling on my post.I started this thread in view to a debate not a slagging match re which company/battalion etc is up to scratch or not:D

RMD

If the army presence was shown more around Dublin in a positive way (guarding key government buildings) it might help with recruitment, or it further the idea they stand around all day doing nothing.

I'd support it anyway, Gardai numbers in Dublin are seriously stretched and it's not as if they'll put up much of a fight if someone is intent on causing harm to government figures.

cushtac

RMD wrote: »

I'd support it anyway, Gardai numbers in Dublin are seriously stretched and it's not as if they'll put up much of a fight if someone is intent on causing harm to government figures.

Ministers have armed Garda protection.

ynotdu

something that has not been mentioned so far on this thread is that the Govt has quietly awarded e300.000 to the defense forces to buy extra riot gear in case the police cannot control riots should they happen on or after budget day.

Woo Hoo that amount of money would hardly defend the 'plain people' of Ireland,So it must be to defend TD's!:)

concussion

Quietly? It was carried in the Sunday Independant on 15/11/09. That equipment is to replace existing stocks - it is not a stockpile for an imagined post-budget outbreak of civil unrest.

ynotdu

concussion wrote: »

Quietly? It was carried in the Sunday Independant on 15/11/09. That equipment is to replace existing stocks - it is not a stockpile for an imagined post-budget outbreak of civil unrest.

Ah yes the Sindo such a realiable source for news and facts:)
I assume the 'old' equipment wont be thrown out just yet?
I never believe only what i read in the papers;)
Any Govt,even this one:rolleyes: has to plan for the worst!,can You guarantee there wont be civil unrest after this budget?It looked very likely earlior this year,and even though a lot of people have begun to accept the reality that we are on the verge of bankrupcy and MIGHT accept what is thrown at them,there is still no guarantee that troops might not be needed to restore order,services or both!

There is precedence for this,check out the 'winter of discontent' that in England brought down Labour and allowed Maggie T to her LONG stint in Number 10:eek:

concussion

I tend to believe the statement it included from a DF spokesman saying that it was to replace existing stocks. The Minister of Defence said the same on 19/11/09 in the Dáil

Willie O'Dea wrote:

I can confirm that the purchase of this equipment was planned as a replacement programme due to fair wear and tear of equipment during normal training and is not related, as the Deputy asks, to any fears of civil disturbance in this country in the immediate future. The equipment is required to enable the Defence Forces to train and carry out its roles at home and overseas to the highest possible international standards and best practice. The purchase of this equipment is a small element of an overall equipment modernisation programme which has seen tremendous strides made in the equipment now available to Defence Forces personnel at all levels to cover the varied roles they are engaged in on a daily basis.

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=DAL20091119.xml&Page=1&Ex=819#N819

ynotdu

Hope Willie O'dear was not pointing a gun at You to say that!;)

soon he will be the minister for a fence;)

ynotdu

i NEVER doubt Willies word..............................

cushtac

Apart from the aforementioned press release, the article in the Indo and the Minister mentioning it in the Dáil, the contract was also put out to public tender and was there on the internet for anyone with the inclination to see - hardly a quiet procurement. This is all coupled with the fact that the PDF has been openly training for public order situations since the 60's.

But I suppose it wouldn't suit some people's alarmist agenda to acknowledge this purchase as anything but routine.

ynotdu

cushtac wrote: »

Apart from the aforementioned press release, the article in the Indo and the Minister mentioning it in the Dáil, the contract was also put out to public tender and was there on the internet for anyone with the inclination to see - hardly a quiet procurement. This is all coupled with the fact that the PDF has been openly training for public order situations since the 60's.

But I suppose it wouldn't suit some people's alarmist agenda to acknowledge this purchase as anything but routine.

I had no intention to be alarmist at all,but think either way it is/was prudent of any Govt to plan for civil unrest.even if it was not an alarmist act technicly it would have had to be put out to tender.

Its almost like some posters dont believe there are default emergency plans for civil unrest.there certainly is and always has been.

Poccington

The equipment was bought to replace old stocks, kit gets damaged when used in multiple exercises. There was no secret conspiracy by Willie O' Dea or the Government to get ready for the Army to be called in.

The simple fact is the Army isn't going to have to deal with any civil unrest. Things are never going to get so bad that Public Order platoons will be charging down O Connell Street.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is off their head.

ynotdu

Poccington wrote: »

The equipment was bought to replace old stocks, kit gets damaged when used in multiple exercises. There was no secret conspiracy by Willie O' Dea or the Government to get ready for the Army to be called in.

The simple fact is the Army isn't going to have to deal with any civil unrest. Things are never going to get so bad that Public Order platoons will be charging down O Connell Street.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is off their head.

Poccington then i suggest you read the history of Argentina's economic collapse's{hardly a 'backward' country}

Admittedly the Irish public are showing incredible resiliance so far.but if Willie O,Dea has not had a chat about this with the Army top brass I'm afraid he has shown carelesness to say the least if not irresponsibility considering the portfolio he holds and the forseeable possible dangers since the economic collapse.

concussion

I'm not so naive that I don't think there are plans for civil unrest, along with insurrection, major terrorist attack, conventional invasion and everything else besides. However, I don't think that the fact that the fact that replacement stocks of PO equipment were bought warrants discussion of imminant rioting.

ynotdu

concussion wrote: »

I'm not so naive that I don't think there are plans for civil unrest, along with insurrection, major terrorist attack, conventional invasion and everything else besides. However, I don't think that the fact that the fact that replacement stocks of PO equipment were bought warrants discussion of imminant rioting.

No concussion i dont believe You are naive:)
as i heard it reported at first it was implied that it was extra equipment,not replacement equipment.That idea has been shot down and i accept it!

I over-reacted but do have concerns about civil unrest this winter but no way near the extent i had earlior in the year,even though there is still at least a chance of the army having to provide services in case of strike or picketing of essential services,and a very slim chance of it having to get involved in civil unrest.

Got to say how much i admire the army big time for their actions during the flooding!

cheers!

muppet01

muppet01 wrote: »

During the national day of action last week the army assisted in the security of govt buildings.Following this should they not continue this duty as:

A: Gardai are released for other duties
B: Military personnel not on UN or cash escort duty are not up to much
C: Army personnnel in dress uniform on such duties are promoting the defence forces in recruitment and public image

How did flood response and riot equipment get into this thread?????????

RMD

ynotdu wrote: »

Ah yes the Sindo such a realiable source for news and facts:)
I assume the 'old' equipment wont be thrown out just yet?
I never believe only what i read in the papers;)
Any Govt,even this one:rolleyes: has to plan for the worst!,can You guarantee there wont be civil unrest after this budget?It looked very likely earlior this year,and even though a lot of people have begun to accept the reality that we are on the verge of bankrupcy and MIGHT accept what is thrown at them,there is still no guarantee that troops might not be needed to restore order,services or both!

There is precedence for this,check out the 'winter of discontent' that in England brought down Labour and allowed Maggie T to her LONG stint in Number 10:eek:

What do you believe, reliable conspiracy theory sites and the likes?

gizmo555

Poccington wrote: »

The simple fact is the Army isn't going to have to deal with any civil unrest. Things are never going to get so bad that Public Order platoons will be charging down O Connell Street.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is off their head.

Garda Public Order Unit on O'Connell Street, 25/02/2006. Doesn't take much imagination to believe this situation could have escalated to the point where they would have had to call on their Army colleagues for assistance. Indeed, there was quite a bit of criticism of senior Gardai after these riots for not deploying enough members to deal with the situation.

cushtac

gizmo555 wrote: »

Garda Public Order Unit on O'Connell Street, 25/02/2006. Doesn't take much imagination to believe this situation could have escalated to the point where they would have had to call on their Army colleagues for assistance. Indeed, there was quite a bit of criticism of senior Gardai after these riots for not deploying enough members to deal with the situation.

Additional Gardaí would have been more readily available than the army, this happened on a Saturday.

gizmo555

cushtac wrote: »

Additional Gardaí would have been more readily available than the army, this happened on a Saturday.

Maybe additional Gardai should have been more readily available, but it is a fact that there were not enough Gardai on the ground and public order completely broke down in central Dublin for several hours with the Gardai completely unable to control the situation. I'd say the guards who were there would have been glad of help from any quarter.

To sum up, I'm just saying I can't square this relatively recent serious rioting in central Dublin with Poccington's assertion that anyone who thinks we'll ever see Army public order platoons on O'Connell Street is "off their head".

Poccington

gizmo555 wrote: »

Maybe additional Gardai should have been more readily available, but it is a fact that there were not enough Gardai on the ground and public order completely broke down in central Dublin for several hours with the Gardai completely unable to control the situation. I'd say the guards who were there would have been glad of help from any quarter.

To sum up, I'm just saying I can't square this relatively recent serious rioting in central Dublin with Poccington's assertion that anyone who thinks we'll ever see Army public order platoons on O'Connell Street is "off their head".

The rioting by our Republican friends was never so serious that PO Platoons were gonna be activated by the DF.

The fact that the GS didn't deploy enough bodies came down to a commander's decision on the day.

imme

yeah good idea.
Gardai on duty on the strike were to show up for work, so how did the stike affect the gardai who work in the Dáil?

cushtac

gizmo555 wrote: »

Maybe additional Gardai should have been more readily available, but it is a fact that there were not enough Gardai on the ground and public order completely broke down in central Dublin for several hours with the Gardai completely unable to control the situation. I'd say the guards who were there would have been glad of help from any quarter.

The extent of the riot was overstated somewhat, the situation wasn't as bad & didn't last as long as some sections of the media would have us all believe. The Gardaí did regain control of the situation, and quicker than the time it would have taken for the decision to deploy the PDF to be made, for them to be recalled to barracks, kitted up, formed up & sent out with orders.

gizmo555 wrote: »

To sum up, I'm just saying I can't square this relatively recent serious rioting in central Dublin with Poccington's assertion that anyone who thinks we'll ever see Army public order platoons on O'Connell Street is "off their head".

There have been worse riots in the past, none of which required the PDF on the streets.

gizmo555

cushtac wrote: »

There have been worse riots in the past, none of which required the PDF on the streets.

Then what is the point of equipping and training soldiers for a public order role? Your comment that it'd be easier to get Gardai because it was a weekend I find bizarre - a touch of "the captain he blows on his whistle and all the sailors go home for their tea" about that.

I also don't agree that the rioting was blown out of proportion by the media - it was by a long way the worst rioting in Dublin I can remember in a great many years. What worse riots had you in mind?

cushtac

gizmo555 wrote: »

Then what is the point of equipping and training soldiers for a public order role?

The public order training is there in case it is needed, so far it has only been needed overseas.

gizmo555 wrote: »

Your comment that it'd be easier to get Gardai because it was a weekend I find bizarre - a touch of "the captain he blows on his whistle and all the sailors go home for their tea" about that.

Are you not aware that the vast majority of PDF personnel are not on duty at the weekends and don't live in the barracks? The decision to use the PDF in such a situation would have to be taken at cabinet level, and there's no way that such a decision could have been taken and implemented quicker than it would have taken more Gardaí to be called up from the rest of the DMR & surrounding divisions.

gizmo555 wrote: »

I also don't agree that the rioting was blown out of proportion by the media - it was by a long way the worst rioting in Dublin I can remember in a great many years. What worse riots had you in mind?

I've worked with many Gardaí who were there, they said while it was dicey for the first couple of hours it was gotten under control after that. Several of those Gardaí worked the British Embassy riot in 1981 and they said it was far worse. One even said he'd had worse at the Bob Dylan concert in Slane in 1984.

stop

cushtac wrote: »

The public order training is there in case it is needed, so far it has only been needed overseas.



Are you not aware that the vast majority of PDF personnel are not on duty at the weekends and don't live in the barracks? The decision to use the PDF in such a situation would have to be taken at cabinet level, and there's no way that such a decision could have been taken and implemented quicker than it would have taken more Gardaí to be called up from the rest of the DMR & surrounding divisions.



I've worked with many Gardaí who were there, they said while it was dicey for the first couple of hours it was gotten under control after that. Several of those Gardaí worked the British Embassy riot in 1981 and they said it was far worse. One even said he'd had worse at the Bob Dylan concert in Slane in 1984.

There was 100 PDF at the British Embassy as backup that day, in the end they were not used.

arybvtcw0eolkf

stop wrote: »

There was 100 PDF at the British Embassy as backup that day, in the end they were not used.

There was also units from the 27th Bn deployed during the riots at the Bob Dylan concert in Slane back in 1984.

gizmo555

cushtac wrote: »

Are you not aware that the vast majority of PDF personnel are not on duty at the weekends and don't live in the barracks?

I am aware of that, but I would still find it bizarre that the Army would not be in a position to field a small force (say one or two hundred men) at very short notice at any time day or night, weekday or weekend, in the capital city of the country it is supposed to be there to defend. If you tell me it can't, well I'll take your word for it. Let's just hope we're not invaded on a weekend . . .

cushtac wrote: »

The decision to use the PDF in such a situation would have to be taken at cabinet level, and there's no way that such a decision could have been taken and implemented quicker than it would have taken more Gardaí to be called up from the rest of the DMR & surrounding divisions.

The policy decision would have to be taken at cabinet level, but there is no reason in principle that it couldn't be taken on a contingency basis well in advance, leaving the operational decision to request Army help or not to the Gardai on the ground. Can't day-to-day aid to the civil power requests be made by Gardai of the rank of Inspector upwards as it is?

cushtac wrote: »

I've worked with many Gardaí who were there, they said while it was dicey for the first couple of hours it was gotten under control after that.

Well exactly. It is, in my view, an extremely serious matter for the Gardai to completely lose control of central Dublin for a "couple of hours" while shops were looted, cars were burned, and innocent bystanders were attacked including at least one stabbing, the beating of a pregnant woman and an attack on Charlie Bird which was serious enough to earn its perpetrator a four year prison term.

cushtac wrote: »

Several of those Gardaí worked the British Embassy riot in 1981 and they said it was far worse. One even said he'd had worse at the Bob Dylan concert in Slane in 1984.

As I said, it was the worst rioting in a great many years - it was 25 years after the 1981 Embassy riot. I was at Slane for Dylan myself, and while I don't doubt your Garda acquaintance's word that he personally had a hard time there, it could not by any stretch of the imagination be compared to the other two situations.

Anyway, I don't have a firm view one way or the other as to whether there should have been an Army presence at this riot, although I do believe it could easily have escalated to the point where it would have been essential. What I will say again though, is that Poccington's claim that things will never get bad enough that we'll see an Army public order unit on O'Connell St makes no sense. Those who ordered the Army to be equipped and trained for this role are obviously planning for such a possibility - are they "off their heads"?

petergfiffin

The Army would only ever be called in domestically as a last resort because they have a very different focus to Garda (or any other Police force's) methods for dealing with public (dis)order, the purpose of Police forces is to preserve order, the army's is to restore it. You will very often see police forces sitting back and effectively letting rioters "punch themselves out", if you're sending in Army riot teams then they're not going to ask rioters to disperse any more, from what I remember the army can even use lethal force if required to restore order - obviously that's a last resort!!!!

gizmo555

"last resort" does not equal "never"

Poccington

gizmo555 wrote: »

Anyway, I don't have a firm view one way or the other as to whether there should have been an Army presence at this riot, although I do believe it could easily have escalated to the point where it would have been essential. What I will say again though, is that Poccington's claim that things will never get bad enough that we'll see an Army public order unit on O'Connell St makes no sense. Those who ordered the Army to be equipped and trained for this role are obviously planning for such a possibility - are they "off their heads"?

I was speaking specifically about the threat of rioting as a result of the current economic situation.

IMO, it's not gonna happen. Sure enough people are unhappy but are they gonna do anything so extreme that the DF will have to mobilise PO Platoons? Once again, IMO no they're not.

As for the little quip of "Let's just hope we're nit invaded on the weekend", the state of readiness of any Army is based off the level of threat it currently faces. As it is, we don't face any threat of being invaded, any threat of people throwing to overthrow the Government etc. so why exactly would we have 100-200 people in Dublin on standby everyday of the week on the off chance the Germans decide they want another shot at Europe?

Anyway, all Units have plans in the event of Units being called up at a time when troops aren't on duty i.e the weekend.

gizmo555

This:

Poccington wrote: »

I was speaking specifically about the threat of rioting as a result of the current economic situation.

IMO, it's not gonna happen. Sure enough people are unhappy but are they gonna do anything so extreme that the DF will have to mobilise PO Platoons? Once again, IMO no they're not.

is a bit more nuanced and less categorical than this:

Poccington wrote: »

The simple fact is the Army isn't going to have to deal with any civil unrest. Things are never going to get so bad that Public Order platoons will be charging down O Connell Street.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is off their head.

Poccington wrote: »

As for the little quip of "Let's just hope we're nit invaded on the weekend", the state of readiness of any Army is based off the level of threat it currently faces. As it is, we don't face any threat of being invaded, any threat of people throwing to overthrow the Government etc. so why exactly would we have 100-200 people in Dublin on standby everyday of the week on the off chance the Germans decide they want another shot at Europe?

OK, a bit facetious on my part, but if we're going to go to the trouble and expense of maintaining an 8,500 strong standing army anyway, why wouldn't we have that sort of size of force available to help at short notice with riots, terrorist incidents, civil disasters - the kind of emergencies which are by their very nature unforeseen? I'm frankly amazed to hear that the capability doesn't currently exist.

Poccington

gizmo555 wrote: »

OK, a bit facetious on my part, but if we're going to go to the trouble and expense of maintaining an 8,500 strong standing army anyway, why wouldn't we have that sort of size of force available to help at short notice with riots, terrorist incidents, civil disasters - the kind of emergencies which are by their very nature unforeseen? I'm frankly amazed to hear that the capability doesn't currently exist.

All Units have a plan which is used when Units are unexpectedly called up, as in on a weekend when most people are off. It would work much the same way as the kind of force you're suggesting, something kicks off and the recall plan is then activated. Everyone reports to their Units and goes off to save the world.

Unless of course you want the standby force to be in barracks for a 24 hour duration, which is another 100-200 people claiming duty money a day. Something which I'd imagine the current Government would be very much against.

cushtac

gizmo555 wrote: »

I am aware of that, but I would still find it bizarre that the Army would not be in a position to field a small force (say one or two hundred men) at very short notice at any time day or night, weekday or weekend, in the capital city of the country it is supposed to be there to defend. If you tell me it can't, well I'll take your word for it. Let's just hope we're not invaded on a weekend . . .

They wouldn't have been able to field one or two hundred men, ad hoc, quicker than the time it would have taken to get a similar number of Gardaí into the area from other divisions.

gizmo555 wrote: »

The policy decision would have to be taken at cabinet level, but there is no reason in principle that it couldn't be taken on a contingency basis well in advance, leaving the operational decision to request Army help or not to the Gardai on the ground. Can't day-to-day aid to the civil power requests be made by Gardai of the rank of Inspector upwards as it is?

I doubt very much that the decision to deploy Irish troops against Irish citizens would be left up to an Inspector.

gizmo555 wrote: »

Well exactly. It is, in my view, an extremely serious matter for the Gardai to completely lose control of central Dublin for a "couple of hours" while shops were looted, cars were burned, and innocent bystanders were attacked including at least one stabbing, the beating of a pregnant woman and an attack on Charlie Bird which was serious enough to earn its perpetrator a four year prison term.

It wasn't central Dublin, it was a couple of streets. All the other stuff happens on an almost weekly basis in Dublin and no-one bats an eyelid, and I'd say the sentence meted out to Bird's attacker had as much to do with his victim's status as it did the assault itself.

gizmo555 wrote: »

As I said, it was the worst rioting in a great many years - it was 25 years after the 1981 Embassy riot. I was at Slane for Dylan myself, and while I don't doubt your Garda acquaintance's word that he personally had a hard time there, it could not by any stretch of the imagination be compared to the other two situations.

Since he was actually at both incidents, and you weren't, I'd say he's in a far better position to judge the severity of them than you.