Training regimes

Martin Walker

Hey all.
MMA as everyone on here will know has evolved massively over the last 5 years. So in turn training for MMA has evolved too.
In the past many clubs have trained in 3 different ranges. One range per class. For example:
Monday: Thai
Wednesday: Clinch and Takedowns
Friday: Groundwork and Submissions
Then it would be MMA sparring on a weekend day.

Now though alot of clubs seem to be appearing that just teach MMA 3 nights a week. So in a way they squeeze it all into the same 2hr class.
So my question is on top of hardcore conditioning what is in your opinion the best training regime to become a competitive MMA fighter?

roo1981

It's kind of hard to define as with MMA training, everyone has their own preferences and tend to adapt their training to suit their style. Factors also include the amount of time a competitor is willing to invest, what level their currently at versus what level they want to compete at, whether they have fights coming up, and what they aim to achieve from their training, for instance do they want to be a fit, atheltic fighter (a la Sean Sherk, Hughes etc) or a technical wizard (Damien Mia and the like...)

A competitor should be able to identify his\her own strengths or weaknesses, and adapt their training to improve areas that need strengthening while maintaining\adapting areas they excel at to suit MMA (for instance boxing itself it very different to MMA but tweaking your style a little can make huge differences with the teeny weenie gloves on.)

I would imagine most fighters would gravitate (knowingly or not) towards a three tier system-i.e. they would have their specialization style, a secondary complimentary style their average at, and a range they need to improve at- for instance an excellent boxer with average wrestling and bad\ok groundwork.

Where the club comes in is giving them an environment to do this. In an ideal world, training would be available full time, however if the clubs training time is limited and\or doesn’t have a full time, specialized coach, I think its more important to give the fighters a curriculum that allows them to work all three ranges in a given night.

If MMA training alone is the goal, I’d say adapting your timetable above- classes broken up into two groups, group 1 attacking for first 30 minutes, defending for last 30 mins.

Monday, 2 Hr Class-
1st Hour, Offensive striking (outside clinch range) & clinch striking
Group 1 attacking for first 30 minutes, defending for last 30 mins.
2nd Hour, defensive and counterattacking striking, movement and clinch-allow light takedowns to work takedowns and takedown defense. Minor emphasis on ground control if takedown is achieved-

Class focus should be on keeping the fight standing and effective striking.

Wednesday,
1st hour Clinch\Takedowns
Group 1 attacking for first 30 minutes, defending for last 30 mins.
Striking optional depending on class focus, probably best to concentrate on clinch and takedown technique.
2nd hour Clinch\Takedowns to ground
Little if any striking, focus on takedown and passing\ground positional control and transitioning from takedown.

Class focus should be on earning the takedown setups (using and avoiding strikes) and keeping positional control once on the ground.

Friday:
Groundwork and Submissions, light focus on starting with the takedown and working your ground offence\defense game off that. Its important to include the takedowns, as unlike sub wrestling\bjj you’ll rarely get anyone sit down or try jump into guard. 1st hour should be for technique, 2nd hour free rolling.

Class focus should be on positional control, ground and pound offense and defence and submissions.

Saturday\Sunday
Sparring class where they can work any or all of the above and try integrate concepts and techniques into their game. If no fight is coming up, its best to keep sparring at 40-50% intensity, both to improve technique and reduce risk of injury.

I think this will develop pretty well rounded fighters after about a year more of training...thing is, if a fighter wants to excel at one particular aspect of the sport (boxing, wrestling, bjj) their probably better off joining a club that specializes or trains full time in that particular style, then going back to a schedule like this to intergrate it into their MMA game.

Martin Walker

I think you kinda missed the question there dude.
Its fairly simple. Is it best to train the 3 ranges seperatly or just MMA in the classes? And why? I dont need a breakdown of a class. But fair one.

Personally i think its best to train the 3 main aspects on different nights. Weve experimented with doin full MMA classes for the last while in our gym but i dont think the results have been as good as they should be.

Raze_them_all

Martin Walker wrote: »

I think you kinda missed the question there dude.
Its fairly simple. Is it best to train the 3 ranges seperatly or just MMA in the classes? And why? I dont need a breakdown of a class. But fair one.

Personally i think its best to train the 3 main aspects on different nights. Weve experimented with doin full MMA classes for the last while in our gym but i dont think the results have been as good as they should be.

If you can try do both, Train all of them, 3 different ranges and all together.

With sdo many out of work we run classes every day, In the mornings, evening then there's kickboxing, judo, wrestling and that at other times

Martin Walker

Our gym is open full time too man.
At the minute we have different classes every night and only really encorporate the Full MMA sparring at the weekend. However when fights are coming up all sparring is Full MMA.
I feel that trying to encorporate all aspects of MMA (striking-clinch-takedowns-groundworks) leads to the teaching being watered down if you will. No-one really excells at anything in particular.

Raze_them_all

Martin Walker wrote: »

Our gym is open full time too man.
At the minute we have different classes every night and only really encorporate the Full MMA sparring at the weekend. However when fights are coming up all sparring is Full MMA.
I feel that trying to encorporate all aspects of MMA (striking-clinch-takedowns-groundworks) leads to the teaching being watered down if you will. No-one really excells at anything in particular.

A jack of all trades, But surely running mma classes with classes in the 3 main ranges can only help? Even if it only helps the person get used to moving from range to range.
As it is, there's morning classes, judo classes, BJJ ( we travel to athy when we can too) Kick boxing and boxing classes that run seperate from the mma classes.

Martin Walker

Raze_them_all wrote: »

A jack of all trades

Exactly.

roo1981

Lol yea sorry tore off on a bit of a tangent there-I thought you were asking what would be a good way for a club with a limited training time frame (2hour classes 3 times a week) to produce competitive MMA fighters...

If the club is full time, I'd say its definitely better to concentrate on each of the ranges seperately, it gives people more of a chance to specialize and focus their training more on whatever range they feel most comfortable in.

Roper

I can only speak for myself... and eh... everyone who is good who I've ever spoken to

You have to do seperate range training. To take BJJ as an example, adding in strikes doesn't change what you'll do that much, it just makes it more difficult, and I would bet that the best bottom game guys you look around at in fighting train BJJ or similar seperately with a dedicated coach in a dedicated class. Same with striking.

I've never bought into this multi-range cross-training lark. It goes against everything I've ever learned as a coach. I think advanced trainees can do it because they've had the basics drilled into them. But to get good from a standing start you need to do one thing at a time.

For us, here's how it happens: We have seperate nights of Thai and BJJ, but no one can come into the MMA class unless they're doing at least one of the other ranges. They'd be lost. And it's no fun doing MMA when everyone else can tap you all the time

Tim_Murphy

Roper wrote: »

To take BJJ as an example, adding in strikes doesn't change what you'll do that much

For bottom, no you are right, it doesn't change that much. For top position it changes dramatically. There are plenty of good BJJers out there who aren't much good at striking on the ground. It is quite possible of course for a good BJJer to use his BJJ from top in MMA but that is a different thing to a good MMA striking top game.

Good striking on the ground is a skill in itself and one won't get it from BJJ.

How to combine ranges is a tricky thing, especially with beginner and intermediates. For beginners I think it is best to keep them separate, lets guys learn to strike without worrying too much about takedowns, let them learn to wrestle without worrying about getting punched in the face but sooner or later they will have to be brought together too. I don’t think there is any definite answer as to when the best time to do this is.

cowzerp

In our club we do MMA as 1, but within that class we break it into the 3 ranges, moving into new place next week or so and we will then still do that but put on specialist classes also to improve the standards in each range, so in my opinion i'd seperate them and join them, especially for sparring session and the more advanced fighters..

if you do divide your classes out thats fine too once you spar in all 3 ranges..as you do marty.

Roper

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

For bottom, no you are right, it doesn't change that much. For top position it changes dramatically. There are plenty of good BJJers out there who aren't much good at striking on the ground. It is quite possible of course for a good BJJer to use his BJJ from top in MMA but that is a different thing to a good MMA striking top game.

I was only referring to bottom game stuff but I don't think I was all that clear so I'll forgive you.

I'm not saying it's easy and theories abound, but for me, get good at things seperately, then stick them together.

Martin Walker

Roper wrote: »

I'm not saying it's easy and theories abound, but for me, get good at things seperately, then stick them together.

Im thinking the same.... good to have a chat about something MMA that isnt UFC:rolleyes:

Tim_Murphy

Roper wrote: »

I was only referring to bottom game stuff but I don't think I was all that clear so I'll forgive you.

Well it wasn't clear because that's not what you said. But thanks for forgiving me. :P

Roper wrote: »

I'm not saying it's easy and theories abound, but for me, get good at things seperately, then stick them together.

That's probably the best way to go alright.

For me, I think the biggest missing link in training regimes here is the lack of dedicated wrestling training. If you look at the timetables of most MMA clubs in Ireland you won't see a dedicated wrestling class (I'm sure there are exception too), that's crazy IMO. I know there is a complete lack of wrestling coaches in the country but the same was true of BJJ 5 years ago and that didn't stop anyone so I don't think it would stop people from wrestling either.

Roper

Roper wrote: »

To take BJJ as an example, adding in strikes doesn't change what you'll do that much, it just makes it more difficult, and I would bet that the best bottom game guys you look around at in fighting train BJJ or similar seperately with a dedicated coach in a dedicated class. Same with striking.

Ahem ahem ahem ahem....:)

For me, I think the biggest missing link in training regimes here is the lack of dedicated wrestling training. If you look at the timetables of most MMA clubs in Ireland you won't see a dedicated wrestling class (I'm sure there are exception too), that's crazy IMO. I know there is a complete lack of wrestling coaches in the country but the same was true of BJJ 5 years ago and that didn't stop anyone so I don't think it would stop people from wrestling either.

MMA 101 for us is wrestling, that's on Tuesdays. We are actively looking for a wrestling coach but for now, we just wrestle and use what we know. Even just by sparring you'll pick up some skills but I agree, a wrestling coach is the missing link for most places.

Tim_Murphy

Roper wrote: »

Ahem ahem ahem ahem....:)

...

Roper wrote: »

To take BJJ as an example, adding in strikes doesn't change what you'll do that much...

Roper wrote: »

MMA 101 for us is wrestling, that's on Tuesdays. We are actively looking for a wrestling coach but for now, we just wrestle and use what we know.

Cool. Sure who needs a wrestling coach if you have some Dan Gable DVDs?!

Roper

Dan Gable? Who is that? We use Macho Man Randy Savage tapes, on Betamax. He also has a record out which everyone should listen to. He's got things to say.

As for why wrestling isn't as prominent in Ireland, I think you have to look at one key thing and that's that it is hard to do recreationally. There's a lower retention rate than say, BJJ where you can roll every night into your 40s and beyond, so the retention rate is high and a lot gets passed on. In a country with practically no wrestling tradition, the retention rate is always going to be key and probably what you have now is guys getting decent at wrestling and either going home to their own country or just quitting.

Would you not agree that an escape is an escape (BJJ speaking) but the MMA escape is ust the BJJ one while getting punched in the face? There's obviously some technical changes but the broad strokes are the same.

cowzerp

Roper wrote: »

Would you not agree that an escape is an escape (BJJ speaking) but the MMA escape is ust the BJJ one while getting punched in the face? There's obviously some technical changes but the broad strokes are the same.

Matt Hughes said punch a bjj black belt in the face then they become brown belt, punch them again and they become purple, again blue etc,,!

having the brain to react under different pressure is the key here, some people you can punch all day, im pretty sure there jitz wont be affected

Tim_Murphy

Roper wrote: »

Dan Gable? Who is that? We use Macho Man Randy Savage tapes, on Betamax.

Nice! Got to get me one of those.

Roper wrote: »

Would you not agree that an escape is an escape (BJJ speaking) but the MMA escape is ust the BJJ one while getting punched in the face? There's obviously some technical changes but the broad strokes are the same.

An escape is an escape. No disagreement there. I was just making the point that grappling with strikes is a very different beast than pure BJJ. That's if the person throwing the strikes is any good at it of course, which is fairness a lot of people aren't. Now that I think of it, I'd imagine that technical gnp training (along with wrestling) would be lacking in a lot of places. Admittedly in clubs with mainly beginners and intermediates it wouldn’t be a top priority.

Roper

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

An escape is an escape. No disagreement there. I was just making the point that grappling with strikes is a very different beast than pure BJJ. That's if the person throwing the strikes is any good at it of course, which is fairness a lot of people aren't. Now that I think of it, I'd imagine that technical gnp training (along with wrestling) would be lacking in a lot of places. Admittedly in clubs with mainly beginners and intermediates it wouldn’t be a top priority.

In fairness Tim I go to shows and I see poor BJJ and poor striking from guys and could easily say that technical striking or technical grappling would be lacking in those gyms. But we are what we are. We're a small island with a small percentage of us dealing in fighting. We're all missing chunks of training that would make us optimal MMA fighters or coaches so I think it's a bit unfair to pick holes. Now that being said, I take your point inasmuch as top drawer striking training and very good grappling training is more readily available than wrestling or GnP training.

Marty posted a bit on this about going to different clubs and gyms and learning from them and I've always tried to import people for a night or two or go to other gyms when I have the chance (not too often these days). Simply put Ireland is too small for small stories and the more we train together the better we'll all be for it, especially the smaller clubs.

Martin Walker

Roper wrote: »

Simply put Ireland is too small for small stories and the more we train together the better we'll all be for it, especially the smaller clubs.

Well said Barry.:D

Sid_Justice

I've always felt that to really get to a high level in any discipline, you have to train extensively in that discipline with people who also train extensively in that discipline. Obviously this means if you want to be an excellent grappler, you should train in all aspects of BJJ (gii, no gi, back, guard, turtle, everything)

The same goes for boxing and for wrestling. But who can devote 3/4 training sessions a week to one of these, never mind all three? On top of that, if you're aim is to be a MMA fighter you have to spar all three ranges together. I think sparring is probably the most important training for MMA it isn't perfect. To really break down your mistakes etc. and improve you need to drill different scenarios. this is how I feel you get better at combining the wrestling and BJJ to become good at GNP, or how you combine the Muay Thai with the wrestling to get really good at bashing people in the clinch.

So ultimately, if we were all GSP and with infinite time and money to train you'd

train extensively in BJJ in BJJ club
Wrestling in wrestling club
Boxing in Boxing club

You'd do sparring with good MMA fighers (you'll naturally blend them together, combine your stances to get one that works etc.)
You'd get good coaching for drill the MMA unique aspects (GNP, dirty boxing, sprawl and brawl, GNP defence)

There's 5 years of your life training 20+ a week just to get to "good".