When, Where, and with Who do you argue with?

Cactus Col

After seeing the various "most annoying argument" threads going on here, I came to the realisation that beyond the internet I have never been involved in an argument about God or religion. Neither have I ever noticed anyone around me having such discussions.

But, it would seem that people on here are regularly getting themselves into confrontations with other people about the existence of god(s). Sure it must come up as debate topics for college societies and such ... but beyond that?

So, I'm wondering where do people go to get into these discussions ... how do they start?

(It probably should be "and with Whom" in the title, but I'm lazy today, and couldn't be bothered checking)

Turtwig

Pub Usually.:)

Meaning of life questions are more common it seems when folks have had some booze. (Non drinker here:))

doctoremma

Cactus Col wrote: »

So, I'm wondering where do people go to get into these discussions ... how do they start?

Pub. My parents' house. Work. Pretty much anywhere. I can usually work up a bit of fury

condra

My best mate and I usually have arguments.

He doesn't believe I'm a real atheist, he thinks I just like being controversial. I love winding him up by saying things like "one day, you'll make a great atheist".

I occasionally argue with my mother, who is religious, but I tend to go easy on her. Most people in her generation are beyond salvation

Dades

Nowhere but here, really.

Wouldn't ever really talk about it unless someone else brought it up and I thought they wanted genuine answers.

GLaDOS

Most of my friends wouldn't be religious, and those who are don't really discuss it. Family would be atheist/agnostic or lapsed Catholic. I'm doing a science course, so I reckon everyone is similarly lacking in belief,apart form one Muslim woman (I think, judging from the head gear ) but once again she doesn't push it on any of us so I'm not going to push my views on her So nobody in real life.

Mostly on boards really :pac:

Skrynesaver

In the pub ocasionally, there's one chap in particular who can't grasp the notion that three of the people he most enjoys a quiet pint with are athiests. He has a tendency to get quite worked up about it and to be honest hasn't ever tried thinking critically about religion so it's not so much an argument as him trying to ignore logic and denying proven truths.

ShooterSF

With a religious friend of mine, much to the ire of the rest of the group who are a-la-carte types. It's always kept at a banter level though.
Occasionally though, in groups with a few strangers I have found myself arguing about "faith healers" and such because someone always knows someone who healed someone of something and they cop my eyes reactionary roll to the sky, like so :rolleyes:

Zillah

I take delight in demonstrating to my Catholic peers that they are, in fact, not Catholics at all. Pubs and philosophy go together frequently if not well.

Related but different topics such as vaccine-idiocy, globalwarming-retardedry, 2012-absurdity and the like come up more often.

Retardedry is a new word, by the way. Sending an email to OED as we speak.

Dave!

I've had a couple of drunken discussions with friends that believe in nebulous, wishy washy ideas of god

It's not a frequent thing though. Usually it's just here.

Last public argument was in Currys about a USB cable.

Otherwise pub sometimes.

nozzferrahhtoo

Wow I seem to be the only person who has these arguments all over the place and not just here!

In fact, the tone of the thread seems to suggest people come here because they WANT to have such arguments, I think I might differ in that too. Let me explain before I annoy anyone without meaning to:

I hate it. I hate arguing with god and religion and theists and creationists and all of them. I want to wake up tomorrow and never argue with them again, ever, not once, not even for fun over a beer. These people have their beliefs and I want to leave them to it and let them get on with that and have all the pleasure it clearly gives them. I want to be the pure portrait of tolerance. I helped set up Atheist Ireland and every part of me wishes I never had to do that.

I am just not LET.

I have a lot of interest in other topics. Politics. Education. Society. Morality. Sexuality. Biology. Physics. Science Fiction. I could go on all night.

However no matter how much I go through these subjects I invariably have god shoved in my face.

In every realm of discourse if you put data on the table the onus is on you to back it up. If you use a stat, you have to show the study. If you use science you have to show the peer reviewed papers. If you quote someone you have to show the source. It goes on in that fashion everywhere...

... except with “god”. In all those areas I list above that I have such an interest in I get “god” thrown at me at every turn. Sexuality has to be one way only because god says so. Evolution can not be right because it is against the creation story. Morality can not be justified without an objective moral law giver. I have even heard Star Wars attacked because it suggests multiple living entities that live at the cellular level that give the Jedi their power and this is a non-mono-theistic message (i seriously kid you not). It goes on***. There is even court cases current and live in the world on this very day arguing over what we should be allowed teach our kids in school based on this god.

And unlike the studies, the stats, the sources or anything above; they appear to think themselves above the onus of proof... they do not have to justify it....they do not have to show this entity they base their position on even EXISTS, but that you have to convince THEM it doesn’t. It is one rule for them and one rule for the rest of us.

Anyway, I do apologise for the rant, but I have to say that anyone on this thread saying they do not come across this argument often, or that they consciously have to go looking for it because they actually ENJOY it... I envy you, and I envy you all a lot. It is a realm of discourse I would leave well alone if I was given the choice and I wish I could tag-team-wrestle you in in my place whenever it comes up.

+++++++++++++++++++++++
*** and clearly it is not all theists who act in this manner, but the problem is it is people like ME left to deal with them, the "Good" theists do not seem that bothered in cleaning up their own mess, while this "mess" goes around giving THEM a bad name which in many cases is entirely unwarranted. What makes this funnier is that I am left going around to the "good" theists bending over backwards trying to convince them that I am not out there tarnishing them with the same general brush! Id laugh only I fear I might never stop

Zillah

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

I wish I could tag-team-wrestle you in in my place whenever it comes up.

That sounds like awesome fun.

Pub Goer: But homosexuality is unnatural, the Bible forbids it.
Nozz: Ugh. Can you hang on for a second?... Zillah!!!
Me: Hello. I'm Zillah, Nozz will be back soon but I understand you wanted to argue about the existence of God? Well, let me tell you...

Dades

Out for dinner this year with one of my best mates and our other halves and he stated that he had a very strong faith. Surprised the crap out of me as I lived with him for years and he always knew where I stood.

The point is I had no inclination to get stuck in and "turn" him, given the respect I have for him as a mate (and a very successful one at that). Had he instigated a frank and open discussion of views - well and good - but otherwise we've plenty else to talk about without falling out over something personal like that.

Malari

I've never really had an argument about it. Most people I've discussed my atheism with are very interested and understanding.

I don't bring it up a lot. It can happen at weddings. Mother of the groom at one wedding last year asked me if me and my boyfriend would be "walking down the aisle" soon. I said quietly that I would need to start believing in god before that happened, and no, we had no current intention to get married. There followed much incredulous "you really don't believe in god????" questions. That's not someone you can have an interesting discussion with. :rolleyes:

NothingMan

I argue a little with family, but I really wouldn't put my heart in it. They are happy to go on living as they are, lapsed catholics who baptise their kids etc...
Most of my friends would have Atheist views and we never argue about religion except perhaps why I would bother defecting when it's easier just to stay in the church for social reasons.

I have to say I stopped getting involved in the debates here too, I learn a lot through reading them and I use to chime in with my thoughts or opinions but as I have no interest in backing up my non belief by studying the bible and religion I generally have little other than my opinions to argue with so I leave it to the experts.

Besides when I do get involved in a debate a certain Christian poster usually just argues in a very non constructive way and refuses to understand that his arguements only stand if we all started with the acceptance and belief of the bible, which obviously means it's impossible to have a logical discussion.

Zillah

Dades wrote: »

Had he instigated a frank and open discussion of views - well and good - but otherwise we've plenty else to talk about without falling out over something personal like that.

See, this attitude irritates me a little. Why assume there's going to be a "falling out"? Religion should not be treated as such a delicate issue. Some of my best friends are the ones I can have a heated debate with.

Tim Robbins

I avoid it at all costs with most people unless they are close friends or my wife.

Rb

I haven't had too many run-ins out in public.
These two Asian teenagers came to the door to ask me whether I attended the local Parish, I informed them that I didn't and when asked why, I informed them that I'm a man of no faith. Well, they were actually very pleasant, they told me they were there to update people as to the new hours in the Parish, and sure even as an Atheist I was welcome to come along for a prayer

Another time I was waiting outside a shop for my girlfriend in Stillorgan Shopping Centre and was approached by an elderly couple who informed me that they were from the Order of Mary (iirc) and started quizzing me on my beliefs. I was tempted to just walk away but the woman was being relatively nice and I didn't have much else to do, so I let them know that I'm a fan of Evolution and reject the notion of God.

Well, they weren't so nice after that and informed me that science cannot explain everything, that God loves his children and that come judgement day I'll regret my choices. I replied asking that if God is indeed forgiving, surely he would forgive me for rejecting him in favour of nature. I was then informed that "God doesn't work that way".

Ah theists, they can make anything up to satisfy their side of the argument, and sure if you ask them for evidence it suddenly becomes above science and the realm of reality

In general though, I tend not to get into too many arguments on the matter. Last time a Polish co-worker brought the matter up with me and I informed her I don't believe in God, or anything else supernatural for that matter. This is someone who is a Catholic and a staunch believer in the power of the horoscope, so naturally she wasn't too impressed that I said that but it didn't concern me much.

drkpower

Malari wrote: »

I don't bring it up a lot. It can happen at weddings. Mother of the groom at one wedding last year asked me if me and my boyfriend would be "walking down the aisle" soon. I said quietly that I would need to start believing in god before that happened, and no, we had no current intention to get married. There followed much incredulous "you really don't believe in god????" questions. That's not someone you can have an interesting discussion with. :rolleyes:

This kind of thing drives me demented.

"Walking down the aisle" is a well-established phrase. Certainly in most of the Western world, catholic, muslim, atheist would probably know it to mean simply: "getting married", whether that be in a church or a barn. The phrase, of course, stemmed from religon, but it no longers refers to an exclusively religous ceremony. Just as 'first past the post' came from horse racing but can now refer to the winner of anything. If someone said, I hope you are first past the post in your race tomorrow, would you reply, 'welll, I'm not a horse....:p"?

So why did you, as an atheist, seek to bring God/no God into a conversation where he didnt belong?? Atheists rightly get annoyed with theists for bringing God into conversations where he doesnt belong.

Zillah

drkpower wrote: »

If someone said, I hope you are first past the post in your race tomorrow, would you reply, 'welll, I'm not a horse....:p

Haha.

Rb

drkpower wrote: »

This kind of thing drives me demented.

"Walking down the aisle" is a well-established phrase. Certainly in most of the Western world, catholic, muslim, atheist would probably know it to mean simply: "getting married", whether that be in a church or a barn. The phrase, of course, stemmed from religon, but it no longers refers to an exclusively religous ceremony. Just as 'first past the post' came from horse racing but can now refer to the winner of anything. If someone said, I hope you are first past the post in your race tomorrow, would you reply, 'welll, I'm not a horse....:p"?

So why did you, as an atheist, seek to bring God/no God into a conversation where he didnt belong?? Atheists rightly get annoyed with theists for bringing God into conversations where he doesnt belong.

This is a very good post and I have to agree. No offense, Malari, but you were at fault in that instance. The woman merely asked if you were getting married, you can get married for a lot of other reasons other than to satify "God" and finally be allowed to have a bit of marital sex!

You can marry for tax reasons, to merely show the other person your committment, to show your intention to start a family etc. It is, after all, a legally binding contract above everything else.

Saying "Well, I'd have to start believing in God first" not only initiates a (presumably heated, unless you had good reason to believe they were an atheist) discussion on theology and beliefs at a time of joy and happiness i.e not the place for an argument over belief. It also, and no offense again, seems somewhat attention seeking/"I'm a rebel" by sticking your apparent atheism in other peoples faces when it's completely and utterly unnecessary. Or perhaps, as though you were doing it for "shock value" (again, assuming you didn't know they're an atheist).

In fact, I would go so far as to say that it gives atheism a bad name in doing so. She didn't want to know whether you believed in God and if you are going to appease his will any time soon, she just wanted to know if you were going to do what is considered a common show of love, affection, devotion and commitment by both theists and atheists alike these days, of every religion and every er...non religion.

So in future, think before you make such comments, particularly at such an occasion of celebration and particularly to someone so emotionally involved. There's a time and place for theological discussions and such an instance isn't one of them!

Malari

Rb wrote: »

This is a very good post and I have to agree. No offense, Malari, but you were at fault in that instance. The woman merely asked if you were getting married, you can get married for a lot of other reasons other than to satify "God" and finally be allowed to have a bit of marital sex!

You can marry for tax reasons, to merely show the other person your committment, to show your intention to start a family etc. It is, after all, a legally binding contract above everything else.

Saying "Well, I'd have to start believing in God first" not only initiates a (presumably heated, unless you had good reason to believe they were an atheist) discussion on theology and beliefs at a time of joy and happiness i.e not the place for an argument over belief. It also, and no offense again, seems somewhat attention seeking/"I'm a rebel" by sticking your apparent atheism in other peoples faces when it's completely and utterly unnecessary. Or perhaps, as though you were doing it for "shock value" (again, assuming you didn't know they're an atheist).

In fact, I would go so far as to say that it gives atheism a bad name in doing so. She didn't want to know whether you believed in God and if you are going to appease his will any time soon, she just wanted to know if you were going to do what is considered a common show of love, affection, devotion and commitment by both theists and atheists alike these days, of every religion and every er...non religion.

So in future, think before you make such comments, particularly at such an occasion of celebration and particularly to someone so emotionally involved. There's a time and place for theological discussions and such an instance isn't one of them!

The woman "merely" did no such thing. You don't know the rest of the story. She complained about everything the entire weekend, from our car not being good enough to take her to the church, to my boyfriend not being a member of the wedding party so why did he think he should be taking her to the church, to the ceremony, other guests. She's a bitch. I said it to shut her up. And I don't apologise for myself because I on't represent myself, not other atheists. In fact it was a time for theological discussion, considering it was a "mixed" marriage with a pretty unusual ceremony and lots of people were talking about it.

drkpower wrote: »

This kind of thing drives me demented.

"Walking down the aisle" is a well-established phrase. Certainly in most of the Western world, catholic, muslim, atheist would probably know it to mean simply: "getting married", whether that be in a church or a barn. The phrase, of course, stemmed from religon, but it no longers refers to an exclusively religous ceremony. Just as 'first past the post' came from horse racing but can now refer to the winner of anything. If someone said, I hope you are first past the post in your race tomorrow, would you reply, 'welll, I'm not a horse....:p"?

So why did you, as an atheist, seek to bring God/no God into a conversation where he didnt belong?? Atheists rightly get annoyed with theists for bringing God into conversations where he doesnt belong.

Why not? I don't get annoyed with anyone bringing god into a conversation as long as I can discuss it with them. What's the big deal?

ironingbored

I tend to argue a lot on youtube with creationists. I also make my beliefs known within family circles but most of my siblings would be more or less athiests but not as vocal as I would be. My father is the only one in the family who still attends mass but I don't really think he knows why himself. My mother is not a churchgoer but has said she believes she will see my grandmother again.

What really gets my goat is the blase religious terminology and refernces to god in everyday life, e.g. thank god, please god, you are in our prayers, god bless, etc. This may seem petty but it's just so pervasive throughout the media too. Just the other morning an RTE journalist signing off on a story about the flooding said..."thank god such and such didn't happen too." Another example was when Claire Byrne on Newstalk intimated that the sheer volume of prayers somehow played a part in the release of the priest in the Philipines. :mad:

Dades

ironingbored wrote: »

Another example was when Claire Byrne on Newstalk intimated that the sheer volume of prayers somehow played a part in the release of the priest in the Philipines. :mad:

Herself and Ivan Yates get my goat up too with the amount of lip service they pay to this kind of thing. Not to mention Newstalk's cringable habit of reporting from 'shock' funerals and broadcasting the priest's predicable "God moves in mysterious ways" sermon.

Interestingly the Newstalk wiki suggests this:

Some have noted a definite shift in the station's political outlook, away from its former[citation needed] so-called 'left wing slant', a move which has been reportedly designed to appeal to a more conservative non-Dublin listenership.

Funglegunk

ironingbored wrote: »

I tend to argue a lot on youtube with creationists.

Why do you even bother?

ironingbored wrote: »

What really gets my goat is the blase religious terminology and refernces to god in everyday life, e.g. thank god, please god, you are in our prayers, god bless, etc. This may seem petty but it's just so pervasive throughout the media too. Just the other morning an RTE journalist signing off on a story about the flooding said..."thank god such and such didn't happen too."

It's just language, why does it annoy you? I say 'Thank God', 'Jesus Christ' etc. all the time. If that genuinely gets your goat you must spend the majority of your day pissed off!

Turtwig

Funglegunk wrote: »

I say 'Thank God', 'Jesus Christ' etc. all the time. If that genuinely gets your goat you must spend the majority of your day pissed off!

Beats saying "Thank F**k" anyday...

Funglegunk

Malty_T wrote: »

Beats saying "Thank F**k" anyday...

I agree but I say that too, though not as often. Frankly my thanks and prayers have been acknowledged by both deities in equal measure.

ironingbored

Funglegunk wrote: »

Why do you even bother?

Just for kicks.

Funglegunk wrote: »

It's just language, why does it annoy you? I say 'Thank God', 'Jesus Christ' etc. all the time. If that genuinely gets your goat you must spend the majority of your day pissed off!

I'm actually very laid back. It irks me that's all. It's these little vestiges of the pervasive religious culture in Ireland that (I believe) subliminally reinforce - Chinese water torture-like - day by day the status quo upon the masses.

Rb

Malari wrote: »

The woman "merely" did no such thing. You don't know the rest of the story. She complained about everything the entire weekend, from our car not being good enough to take her to the church, to my boyfriend not being a member of the wedding party so why did he think he should be taking her to the church, to the ceremony, other guests. She's a bitch. I said it to shut her up. And I don't apologise for myself because I on't represent myself, not other atheists. In fact it was a time for theological discussion, considering it was a "mixed" marriage with a pretty unusual ceremony and lots of people were talking about it.



Why not? I don't get annoyed with anyone bringing god into a conversation as long as I can discuss it with them. What's the big deal?

Usually, if you have to go through the motion of making up such a number of excuses for something, you're in the wrong and aren't too interested in admitting it.

Malari

Rb wrote: »

Usually, if you have to go through the motion of making up such a number of excuses for something, you're in the wrong and aren't too interested in admitting it.

Wrong? Seriously? I can say whatever I feel like about my lack of beliefs without being wrong!

As long as other people can say "please god" and such, then I really don't see the problem.

And I stated initially that I don't bring it up very often. You accused me of saying it without reason, I just explained I had plenty of reasons. They don't even need to be stated to justify it.

drkpower

Malari wrote: »

Why not? I don't get annoyed with anyone bringing god into a conversation as long as I can discuss it with them. What's the big deal?

Its not really a big deal - when I said it drives me "demented", I didnt mean it literally!!:D

But when theists bring God into conversations where he doesnt belong (ie. conversations on abortion, education, science, or whatever), it rightly annoys many people. So atheists bringing him up where he shouldnt be involved (questions about whether you intend to get married) strikes me as, at best superfluous, and at worst, attention-seeking and argumentative.

Of course, you can say what you want, but the next time someone starts preaching about God to you, you don have much of a right to complain about it.

SChemie

I don't argue with anyone - just fume silently about religious types.

Odd slightly heated debate with other half on how children will learn morals if they don't get them from the church :rolleyes: