Interesting Morning at EIDW

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I happened by Dublin Airport this morning just as the carnage was ensuing.

With the scanner on in the car I first heard two EI A330's going around one after the other. Think it was EI-108 and EI-124 and I imagine they diverted to Shannon because they wernt parked up at pier B.

I parked up abeam the threshold on the back road as winds [240 35kt G50kt] were raging. A Ryanair, I think, had a plastic bag blow in under its landing gear as it lined up on the runway. Another a/c noticed this and informed ATC. I think he ended up taxing off onto 34 to clear the debris.

A Flybe Dash 8 made a scary looking final approach bouncing around but the pilot did an excellent job landing it and was praised by the controller.

The Ryanair guys didnt seem to be having a big problem with the winds but the Aer Lingus guys struggled. An EI 320 had to go around also but I think his second attempt was successful.
Wonder if that's due to the Airbus' apparent difficulty with landing in crosswinds!?

Wish I had a camera with me cos there was some serious crabbing going on!:)

Kevster

I don't know if there's anything overly special about Airbus' landing in crosswinds, but I remember being on an internal flight in Argentina once and there was a ferocious crosswind while landing. The pilot basically landed the airplane at an angle and on the back-left wheels first. Eventually the back-right set were set down, and then the front.

Back then, I knew absolutely nothing about flying in crosswinds, but Ive later learned that the way he landed was standard for a strong crosswind.

...oh, and it was an Airbus.

Dacian

View Profile wrote: »

I happened by Dublin Airport this morning just as the carnage was ensuing.

The Ryanair guys didnt seem to be having a big problem with the winds but the Aer Lingus guys struggled.........Wonder if that's due to the Airbus' apparent difficulty with landing in crosswinds!?

Best place to be in high winds is below the incoming aircraft for the view!!


I was under the impression that it was a rumour/bad press that the Airbus can't handle crosswinds as well as the B737s. Seems like a bad oversight in design to me! Did every Airbus divert or justy a few?

How many a/c did you see land and how many called off the landing?

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I only saw one go around but I heard the two EI A330's go around. Maybe their crosswind limitation was exceeded.

The BMI lads had no issue landing their Airbus and the Aer Lingus A320 eventually made it in second time round.

The Aer Arann guys even managed it. Entertaining to watch!:D

AfterDusk

Have you got a time frame for the 'drama'??

I'd like to archive it on LiveATC.net

bobcar61

My parents were on flight EI 108 from New York, they were about 50 ft from touching down and the pilot but on the throttle and diverted to Shannon. It was about half 10 when they were back in Dublin. They landed in Shannon at 08.40 or so and then made their way back to Dublin, probably when things calmed down a bit.

CaptainSkidmark

i remember last year landing into amsterdam with aer lingus, sideways and on the back left wheel. i could see straight up the runway from on the wing!

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neil2304
Have you got a time frame for the 'drama'??

Yep it was between 8am and 9am. After 9 the wind began to die down.

AfterDusk

View Profile wrote: »

Yep it was between 8am and 9am. After 9 the wind began to die down.

Thanks

diverdriver

Crosswinds can be a bit of a lottery. That's why some go around and some don't. You can be hit by a gust at the crucial moment or get a bit of sink or you make a pigs ear of it or you can just sail in serenely sideways and land without drama. It's days like this that airline pilots earn their salary. Meanwhile the flight sim heroes and joe public thinks it's all about button pushing.:rolleyes:

I've always preversely enjoyed crosswinds, one Instructor observed that it was probably because I always flew with crossed controls.:P

alpha2zulu

Heres the 0800-0830 atc feed.

http://archive-server.liveatc.net/eidw/EIDW-Nov-25-2009-0800Z.mp3

Definetly makes a good listen for any budding ATC'er or Pilot. Seems even pre 0800 there were many go arounds. Fair play to all involved, definetly sounds like a nice challenging morning!!

ian_m

Dublin airport hit by strong winds
High winds caused the diversion of ten aircraft from Dublin Airport this morning.

Air traffic control diverted three aircraft to Manchester and seven to Shannon Airport after gusts of up to 50 knots were recorded on the main runway.

The diverted aircraft belong to Ryanair, Aer Lingus, Etihad and Delta Airlines.

A spokesperson for Dublin Airport said flights had resumed by mid-morning and only minor delays were reported.

As a precaution, the Dublin Airport Authority (DAA) has advised intending passengers to contact their airlines before travelling.
irishtimes.com - Wednesday, November 25, 2009

drdeadlift

I was listening to the atc early yesterday morning,some interesting stuff going on.I herd one ei a320 ga he was coming in from bhx cant recall his flight number.

I was up there on sunday morning and again i have to say i would pick a 737 v an a320 any day(based on 13years plane spotting at dub lol ).

ihatewallies

The tail winds were so ferocious once we had to land backwards.

APM

I think the bulk of the go-arounds yesterday were caused by positive wind-shear, and the warnings being generated by the aircraft wind-shear predict computer. Its pretty standard as soon as the warning goes off the pilots would have to initiate a go-around.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNdaNTAXkpo

So in all likelyhood the approaches weren't even near completion and could've still had the autopilot engaged.

Owen

ihatewallies wrote: »

The tail winds were so ferocious once we had to land backwards.

This isn't after hours, post like that again and you won't be posting here for a while.

ihatewallies

The worst was turbulent downdrafts. That time we had to land upside down.

Owen

Banned.

wayne2107

I work for fedex, our flight landed ok but they could not unload it due to winds! Nice handy day for us. lol


Well done paint doctor. Good call

N2

So in all likelyhood the approaches weren't even near completion and could've still had the autopilot engaged.[/QUOTE]

When you select TO/GA for a go-around with a single channel approach on the 737 the auto-pilot automatically disconnects. If windshear is encountered you would also have to disconnect the auto-throttle to fly the windshear escape manouvre.

APM

N2 wrote: »

So in all likelyhood the approaches weren't even near completion and could've still had the autopilot engaged.

When you select TO/GA for a go-around with a single channel approach on the 737 the auto-pilot automatically disconnects. If windshear is encountered you would also have to disconnect the auto-throttle to fly the windshear escape manouvre.[/QUOTE]

I'm not privvy to any 737 FCOM's yet but I would've thought every approach would be conducted with dual A/P engaged, just for the redundancy alone (and making go-arounds alot easier)

Two clicks of the TOGA button will bring it to max thrust or MCT without needing to disconnect the A/T regardless of the autopilot situation

N2

Most operators only conduct dual Chanel approaches for cat 2/3 autolands, which has a 15kt crosswind limit and no reported windshear criteria.
To get full go-around N1 you click TO/GA once then when reduced go-around thrust is set you click TO/GA a second time to get full thrust! By double clicking TO/GA (one straight after the other) all you will get is reduced climb commanding 1000-2000 ft/min. That is why Boeing recommend you disengage the automatics and aggressively apply full thrust manually to fly a windshear escape manuveur, there is an automatic profile published but it still states you have to be prepared to fly manually.

Gekko

a shame there was no-one at the airport with a camcorder to grab the obligatory Youtube clips!

bladeruner

APM wrote: »

I'm not privvy to any 737 FCOM's yet but I would've thought every approach would be conducted with dual A/P engaged, just for the redundancy alone (and making go-arounds alot easier)

If you did a dual channel approach in CAT 1 conditions on a a 737.
There could be a trim issue when you disconnected.

As the 737 is a "manual " aircraft , it trims during a dual channel approach in case it needs to do an autopilot engaged go around (ie , it would need a large pitch up to take it away from the ground)
so if you disconnected close to the ground , the aircraft would be trimmed for this manoeuvre, you would have to manually over ride this pitch up ,and deal with the cross winds on the day .

what I cant remember exactly is when the 737 starts to do this trimming , it may well be below the CAT1 decision altitude and if so please disregard the above !

As the scarebus is fly by wire , it is always in trim so to speak.

I think the 737 is easier to land in crosswinds, but Ryanairs cross wind limitiation is a factored 33 knots (used to be 35 before the big winglets made their appearance) where as Aer Lingus use an all in Gusting 38 knot limit.

homerjay2005

we had a misapproach last sunday morning at 9am on an aerlingus flight. the pilot,IMO, came in away too fast, touched down briefly, didnt have control of the plane and took off again. we landed again about 10 minutes later...he said a gust of wind got hold of the plane as we landed,but im not so sure. he was landing far too fast.

infact,something similar happened about 6 years ago,aer lingus also that time,he could not land,tried to go down 3 times and eventually landed in belfast.

Preset No.3

homerjay2005 wrote: »

we had a misapproach last sunday morning at 9am on an aerlingus flight. the pilot,IMO, came in away too fast, touched down briefly, didnt have control of the plane and took off again. we landed again about 10 minutes later...he said a gust of wind got hold of the plane as we landed,but im not so sure. he was landing far too fast.

infact,something similar happened about 6 years ago,aer lingus also that time,he could not land,tried to go down 3 times and eventually landed in belfast.

I know this is going to come off sounding like an ass, but HomerJay, are you a commercial pilot? Do you know the min/max landing speeds of an Airbus A320? How from sitting in a seat looking out a window did you come to the conclusion that the aircraft was travelling too fast?

The landing speed can be anywhere from 100-170 knots depending on chosen flaps, I am open to correction on this though. Im not a commerical pilot, just a lowly PPL.

homerjay2005

Preset No.3 wrote: »

How from sitting in a seat looking out a window did you come to the conclusion that the aircraft was travelling too fast?

from experience...ive landed in dublin airport on average once a week over the past 2 years and you get a feeling of landing. i knew about 30 seconds before we attempted to touch down that approach speed was too much. when it happened,it didnt surprise me one bit.

there was also a man sitting beside me who said the same thing. the 2nd time we landed, we landed defo in a much slower speed.

N2

Bladerunner, the stab is automatically trimmed at nose up at 400' rad alt.

homerjay2005, from your considerable passenger experience, what speed is too fast???????

homerjay2005

N2 wrote: »

homerjay2005, from your considerable passenger experience, what speed is too fast???????

hard to say. just a gut feeling. i will be flying 2 times next week and your welcome to join me and i will tell you if its normal or not :P

bladeruner

homerjay2005 wrote: »

we had a misapproach last sunday morning at 9am on an aerlingus flight. the pilot,IMO, came in away too fast, touched down briefly, didnt have control of the plane and took off again. we landed again about 10 minutes later...he said a gust of wind got hold of the plane as we landed,but im not so sure. he was landing far too fast.

infact,something similar happened about 6 years ago,aer lingus also that time,he could not land,tried to go down 3 times and eventually landed in belfast.

Go arounds/missed approaches can be scary at the best of times .

No disrespect HomerJ but unless you could see the airspeed indicator in the cockpit , you cannot say they landed too fast.
There was a few threads about Ryanair planes landing "too Fast" before and they were all a load of codswallop .

99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% airlines approaches are flown at the correct speed. when they dont , that company will know about it within hours or more likely minutes , leading to questions for the pilot concerned.

I doubt very much your flight landed fast.
In gusty weather , the airspeed flown for the approach is increased by sometimes as much as 20 knots or more but you as a passenger could not know this unless you had a GPS unit in your hand.
They fly faster in windy weather because if a gust dies down the aircraft will have lost energy and this is not a good idea close to the ground.

Conversely if a gust starts to blow, it adds energy and can cause an aircraft to balloon, this can happen on approach or as it sounds from your flight as it touched down.

a go around is always the safest option.

diverdriver

Yes indeed when conditions are gusty and with crosswinds a few knots are added.

But it's difficult to get a good perception of airspeed because as a passenger, what you're seeing out the window is your speed over the ground. So on a windy day the perceived speed would be lower, on a calm day higher. With a gusty crosswind not only will the aircraft be flying at a faster airspeed to compensate, but the groundspeed will be higher too. Which I suspect is what you were seeing HomerJay. That fact that there was a touchdown implies that the problem arose from a gust on the ground, going around is always a better option than trying to keep it straight on the runway.

For the second approach the wind might have changed speed and direction which led to a successful landing while looking slower.

You can safely assume, the pilot wasn't flying 'too fast'. The go around would have been much earlier in that case. It's all a question of perception.

aliport

We were on an Aer Lingus flight from Orlando and landed just after 8am on Wednesday, I'm a frequent flyer and had recently done and aerobatic flying lesson but this was scary. We went round twice and the plane was just getting thrown about, when we landed the plane continued to rock from side to side while we were trying to get off.

billy few mates

what I cant remember exactly is when the 737 starts to do this trimming

The correct term for this trimming action is 'flare spring bias' and it occurs at 400ft.....

homerjay2005

anybody listening in today? much delays? am in south dublin and its very windy here. im on a tight schedule later, if i am delayed an hour, im missing my reason for flying

diverdriver

Check arrivals/departures usually on the airport website and Aertel. Should give you a clue.

skybus

from experience...ive landed in dublin airport on average once a week over the past 2 years and you get a feeling of landing. i knew about 30 seconds before we attempted to touch down that approach speed was too much. when it happened,it didnt surprise me one bit.

there was also a man sitting beside me who said the same thing. the 2nd time we landed, we landed defo in a much slower speed

We are a country of experts. Over 20 years commercial flying experience and even I wouldn't make an assumption on whether an aircraft is flying too fast or too slow on an approach when sitting as a passenger looking sideways in the back of the cabin. The reasons I can't make this assumption are:
1) What is the actual landing mass of the aircraft taking into consideration the passenger load and any additional fuel tankering.
2) What is the flap configuration of the aircraft for the landing conditions? (Flap selection on most modern aircraft varies with the prevailing landing weather conditions. In turn this has an impact on your approach and landing speed)
3) What is the wind on the approach and more importantly what is the velocity of the reported gust when determining a suitable approach speed.

I could add plenty more but I'll stop now and leave the assumptions to the 'experts' and their friends.

Manic Moran

I was somewhat amused, listening to the MP3 file there, to hear the silence after "Put a sock in it, lads!" (About 12:30)

NTM

alpha2zulu

Manic Moran wrote: »

I was somewhat amused, listening to the MP3 file there, to hear the silence after "Put a sock in it, lads!" (About 12:30)

NTM

Yeah I was wondering myself what that was all about!

Anyway the 0730 feed is even more frenetic in terms of volume of coms, particularly towards the end (about 25min in)as 2 EI A330's were trying to get in.

http://archive-server.liveatc.net/eidw/EIDW-Nov-25-2009-0730Z.mp3

Manic Moran

I think it was because there was ground traffic spending a little too long on an aircraft freq, which could have been dealt with on an admin freq.

NTM