Rise of male student support groups sparks row at British universities

Herbal Deity

After decades of feminism, equal rights and "women-only" support networks, a lower, deeper voice is attempting to make itself heard at some of Britain's leading universities.
Male students are "manning-up", setting up men's groups to celebrate and explore the concept of masculinity amid accusations of sexism and gender stereotyping.
Manchester University has created the first official MENS Society – Masculinity Exploring Networking and Support – despite outrage from critics who claim the existence of such a group undermines women's ability to speak out for equality.
Meanwhile, at Oxford University the formation of Man Collective – Oxford (MC-O), launched "as a response to the current state of masculinity" has been branded "reactionary and ridiculous".
Detractors allege they are just a front for macho activities and beer-drinking marathons, but supporters insist they are essential as young men struggle to cope with the pressures of being a man in the modern world.
Alex Linsley, 20, founder of MC-O, said: "There is so much conflicting information for men. There is massive confusion as to what being a man means, and how to be a good man. Should you be the sensitive all-caring, perhaps the 'feminised' man? Or should you be the hard, take no crap from anybody kind of figure?
"Neither of those are particularly useful paradigms. But there's perhaps things we could learn from both perspectives".
Men, who could feel pressured to "man-up" in a mixed gender environment, might feel less vulnerable discussing such issues in a male-only setting.
The Merton college student admits launching his organisation with the testosterone-fuelled invitation – "Have you got balls? Literally. If you have how does that make you feel?" – has drawn stinging criticism.
Given that men already dominate political and economic life, British society didn't need "much more celebration of masculinity," claimed one critic.
Kat Wall, the Oxford University's student union vice president for women, accused him of gender stereotyping but welcomed the debate and hoped he would work with the women's campaign to "facilitate a discussion forum on the issue of masculinity".
But Linsley, an economics and management student who started MC-O after being struck by the number of 18- to 25-year-old males committing suicide in Oxford, has also received positive feedback.
While self-improvement among women was common with magazines bursting with advice, there was little for men, was the message. "Do you expect men to mysteriously find their own way alone?" questioned one supporter on the Cherwell university newspaper website.
"I want to create this forum for men, so men can learn from each other and discuss these issues and make a positive step forward," said Linsley.
In Manchester, the MENS Society, which despite its name has women among its 306 members, claims it highlights not just masculinity issues, but also raises funds and awareness for men's mental health, testicular and prostate cancer as well as male rape and domestic violence issues.
Its campaign for official ratification from the student union's societies committee has provoked furious debate. Originally called the Men's Society, it has now agreed to the MENS compromise. Founder Ben Wild, 21, a politics and modern history student, said he was "relieved that the societies committee has acknowledged the importance and promising benefits of this new society, the first of it's kind in a UK university".
"Why have one? Because so little was being done on raising awareness on issues specific to men, such as male depression, which occurs because they can't live up to this very idealised traditional masculine role," he said.
Such arguments hold little sway with opponents, however.
Olivia Bailey, NUS national women's officer, said: "Discrimination against men on the basis of gender is so unusual as to be non-existent, so what exactly will a men's society do?"
"To suggest that men need a specific space to be 'men' is ludicrous, when everywhere you turn you will find male-dominated spaces," she added.
Caitriona Rylance, chair of Manchester Communist Students, said that while the society now claimed to be about "self-betterment" it's original aims were "Top Gear shows, gadget fairs, beer-drinking marathons and Iron Man competitions".
Wild responded: "There has been so much false information peddled. I'm teetotal, and our first event was a sober pub crawl. And we've compromised on our beard-growing contests to make it more inclusive."
Professor Marilyn Davidson, an expert in diversity and equality at the Manchester Business School said: "It is interesting that this is happening. And there is an obvious need. One of the problems men have is that they don't have the support networks when they are under stress that women do.
"If we were talking about business and all-male clubs, they were the gatekeepers who were stopping women entering. But I don't think these groups are doing that. It's not us against them. It's just about supporting each other."
Patrick Leman, from Royal Holloway University of London, said: "In some senses it is to be welcomed, because it is good that young men reflect on who they are and what they should be doing. That sort of reflected self-awareness is not something that is particularly associated with men. But I went to Oxford, and it could, of course, just turn into another awful drinking society."
However, Martin Daubney, 39, editor of the lads' magazine Loaded, was contemptuous. "I don't think men are remotely confused about what it takes to be a man. They just get on and do it. My generation would not sit round and build a website about being confused. It's complete navel-gazing bull****."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2009/nov/23/men-students-support-groups-universities


This made my blood boil:

Olivia Bailey, NUS national women's officer, said: "Discrimination against men on the basis of gender is so unusual as to be non-existent, so what exactly will a men's society do?"
"To suggest that men need a specific space to be 'men' is ludicrous, when everywhere you turn you will find male-dominated spaces," she added.

amacachi

The little bit you quoted at the end just made me LOL. Fair play to them for setting this up.

burger1979

Caitriona Rylance, chair of Manchester Communist Students, said that while the society now claimed to be about "self-betterment" it's original aims were "Top Gear shows, gadget fairs, beer-drinking marathons and Iron Man competitions".
Wild responded: "There has been so much false information peddled. I'm teetotal, and our first event was a sober pub crawl. And we've compromised on our beard-growing contests to make it more inclusive."


i liked his reply about the beards:D:D in fairness though why cant men have support groups? i do think that the information age has men portrayed, like women, out to be perfect and to achieve to be perfect in every way so that they can have the ultimate lifestyle. i would say that discrimination against men on the basis of gender is probably very little but that does not mean that men dont suffer abuse at the hands of women or at the hands of other men and then there is no where for them to turn if they are freightened and want to talk to someone about it man to man(rather than going to the police or to their friends). I think that there is a culture that shows men to be these no emotional showing types and that if they show one sign of weakness then thye should 'harden up' and stop acting like a wimp. which of course can lead to men bottling up emotions and if these get very stressful for a man to take then the consequences can be harmful to that man, or lead one to take his own life.

minidazzler

I approve totally of this actually.

How many men can say it was there father who was the primary in their life. The one who raised them? To quote Fight Club "We are a generation of Men raised by women" To explore Masculinity is not a bad thing. Especially in an age where everyone is becoming more asexual.

I'm not saying change the gender roles back to the old days. But Men should be allowed simply be Men at certain times.

CDfm

Why not -if a guy is not into sports, movies, archaeology or gay (no offense to gays) then they probably don't have a support structure living away from home.

Whats with it that if men start a support group it is somehow defined as an anti-feminist backlash by some womens groups.

Maybe its because some womens groups have an explicit political aghenda that this is so.

Herbal Deity

minidazzler wrote: »

Men should be allowed simply be Men

What does that mean?

CDfm

Herbal Deity wrote: »

What does that mean?

It could be that someone doesnt get genders being social constucts.After only finding out that I was one only a few months ago I probably wont miss it.

DubiousDude

This is how feminists see things - anything that does not include feminists must be against feminists. This does not apply the other way around though. There is always a valid reason why women need extra support which only includes women but when there is a need for men to support men oh no, there must be more than that going on. Surely the men are conspiring some complicated plot as to how to dis-empower women or something.

I am sure that any women that has a problem with these male students forming these societies are feminists.

Normal women don't have these paranoid conspiracy theories everytime more than 2 men stand within 3 feet of each other. Thankfully though the vast majority of women are not feminists, my wife for instance cringes when she hears that word. I for one am also a proud and ardent anti feminist.


Best of luck to these students, it's long overdue.

cocoa

Generalisations and blurred definitions don't help anyone. I think this sounds like a good new movement, and interestingly, all of the flak it's receiving means it probably won't survive if it is just another excuse to drink or a silly reaction to feminism(which I don't think it is).

I'd wish them the best of luck and hope they have the courage to carry on and ignore the nay-sayers

SprostonGreen

Well done to those fellas.

But the bit quoted and the end is just typical, f*** the feminist c***, she should keep her nose out and go and protest at some golf club.

CDfm

cocoa wrote: »

Generalisations and blurred definitions don't help anyone. I think this sounds like a good new movement, and interestingly, all of the flak it's receiving means it probably won't survive if it is just another excuse to drink or a silly reaction to feminism(which I don't think it is).

I agree I dont like gender based politics. But positive groups are inspirational. I wouldnt fit with a misogynist group of people cos lots of my friends are women. IMO lots of womens groups come accross as anti-men and mens groups that get into gender politics are not attractive.

SprostonGreen wrote: »

Well done to those fellas.

But the bit quoted and the end is just typical, f*** the feminist c***, she should keep her nose out and go and protest at some golf club.

I imagine 99% of irish golf clubs allow female members so she would have difficulty finding one.

Lots of women I know are appaled by young male suicide etc so I dont know who she represents.

The Manchester Club with female members seems fairly on the up.

Dr Galen

using abusive terms like the above is simply not on.
note the poster has been infracted. any repeats of this kind of thing earns people some time out

cheers

MM

Smallbit

CDfm wrote: »

Lots of women I know are appaled by young male suicide etc so I dont know who she represents.

I agree, and I work in mental health and face the problem quite often. The confusion around male roles among young males has reached a level that is truly frightening. Add increasing unemployment to that mix and you end up with entire generations within certain social classes feeling like they have no real purpose in life other than sperm donation.

Only recently my b/f pointed out how many instances you can dfind of advertising where the male is presented as a gormless fool, or figure of fun.

I don't feel threatened by these groups, maybe they might serve a useful purpose! and so what if they encourage pub crawls or adventure sports, it's the cameraderie and support structures that matter here.

shellyboo

DubiousDude wrote: »

This is how feminists see things - anything that does not include feminists must be against feminists. This does not apply the other way around though. There is always a valid reason why women need extra support which only includes women but when there is a need for men to support men oh no, there must be more than that going on. Surely the men are conspiring some complicated plot as to how to dis-empower women or something.

This is not how feminists see things. This is how very stupid women who don't understand feminism see things.

DubiousDude wrote: »

I am sure that any women that has a problem with these male students forming these societies are feminists.

Normal women don't have these paranoid conspiracy theories everytime more than 2 men stand within 3 feet of each other. Thankfully though the vast majority of women are not feminists, my wife for instance cringes when she hears that word. I for one am also a proud and ardent anti feminist.

So offensive I have no idea even where to begin. The vast majority of women these days are feminists, and the vast majority of men are too. Spouting crap about "feminists are this that and the other" helps nobody. In fact, you're doing to women just what you're complaining about feminists doing to men...

Normal women don't have these paranoid conspiracy theories everytime more than 2 men stand within 3 feet of each other.

Ironic. Normal men don't have paranoid conspiracy theories about feminists being out to get them, either.


EDIT: As per the OP, I can see both sides of the story here. If indeed this is a knee-jerk reaction to women's groups then it's pretty offensive to those dedicated to genuinely helping women achieve equality. If it's a sincere attempt to give men whatever support they need, then that's undoubtedly a positive move. It's a shame to not see them focus on hard-hitting male issues such as mental health and health in general - things men generally find it difficult to talk about and come forward about.

deadhead13

Maybe its a typo, but the most amusing part of the article for me was Ms Kat Walls title - "Oxford University's student union vice president for women". Why would women need their own student union representative? And is there a male equivalent to Ms Olivia Baily - "NUS national women's officer. It seems to be a case of everybody's equal but some people are more equal than others.

Zulu

About time really. It's sad how our society at large has allowed one subsection be treated.

hobochris

If women are allowed to have support groups then why shouldn't men be allowed also? Is that not what the equality that these groups opposing this preach about so much is about?

Also the number of young male suicides in the western world would suggest a support group like this has its place.

If only these narrow mind individuals masquerading themselves as feminists would cop on when really their views couldn't be any more divorced from what the equality movement is about.

CDfm

deadhead13 wrote: »

Maybe its a typo, but the most amusing part of the article for me was Ms Kat Walls title - "Oxford University's student union vice president for women". Why would women need their own student union representative? And is there a male equivalent to Ms Olivia Baily - "NUS national women's officer. It seems to be a case of everybody's equal but some people are more equal than others.

Does that happen in Ireland NSU and Colleges?

Valmont

shellyboo wrote: »

Normal men don't have paranoid conspiracy theories about feminists being out to get them, either.

They're watching me right now for christ sake!:eek:

deadhead13

CDfm wrote: »

Does that happen in Ireland NSU and Colleges?

Not that I'm aware of. But if the Uk is anything like Ireland, where females now outnumber males 59% to 41% in the country's 7 universities, maybe it is time to realise that it is male students that need help and not overreact to a male support group on campus.

CDfm

Valmont wrote: »

They're watching me right now for christ sake!:eek:

IMHO - you have groups with political aghendas,fair enough and good luck to them.

I don't think that a group should be defined as a backlash group by others. So if a group gets together as it says to tackle issues or have support for young males with suicide, mental health or other issues they should be let get on with it.

If thats dressed up in a blokish Jeremy Clarkson way - ya that fine too.

I dont see why a group setting up like that should cause such negative comment. It should be -well done - young guys need support - they are some womans son,brother or some girls boyfriend. Why not support and influence like the Manchester ladies are.

I mean - I couldnt imagine GC without the ladies who post here or if it was totally guycentric.

sceptre

However, Martin Daubney, 39, editor of the lads' magazine Loaded, was contemptuous. "I don't think men are remotely confused about what it takes to be a man. They just get on and do it. My generation would not sit round and build a website about being confused. It's complete navel-gazing bull****."

Kudos, Martin Daubney, 39, editor of the lads' magazine Loaded. Now go and have a nice **** for yourself, it'll make it all better.

See, I also can do contemptuous.

CDfm

sceptre wrote: »

Kudos, Martin Daubney, 39, editor of the lads' magazine Loaded. Now go and have a nice **** for yourself, it'll make it all better.

See, I also can do contemptuous.

Maybe thats why its sales are now at 20% of its peak in the 1990s -has it lost touch with its audience?

http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/story.asp?storycode=43071

Herbal Deity

Or maybe, just maybe, it's the internet.

Occam's Razor ftw.