What happened to the Westport train?

Yoda

On Sunday 15 November I was taking the 13:05 Heuston to Westport. At Claremorris (I think) the train stopped for 30 minutes because of the single track ahead and late departure of the train from Westport. That train never came... we started up again and by Manulla they were telling passengers for Westport that we would have to get out at Castlebar and be bussed to Westport—because the train in Westport Station had a catastrophic fault and could not leave the platform.

My question is: Since there are TWO platforms in Westport, why couldn't the train go ahead and pull in on the other platform?

Cookie_Monster

Another mystery in the black hole that is IE :pac:


The only reason i can imagine is that that the train in Westport got part way out of the station before breaking and blocked the points that allow access to the 2nd platform. pure guess though

afatbollix

too small a platform at westport on the other side and with the trains now not joined together means that some people cant get off??

Thats just What I think the reason would be so dont take it for word...

Victor

afatbollix wrote: »

too small a platform at westport on the other side and with the trains now not joined together means that some people cant get off??

If this is corect, there is an issue, as a long train is no longer allowed stop at a short platform. This is likely to be corrected by fitting selective door opening.

W123-80's

From what I am led to believe the train in Westport (Up Westport-Heuston) conked out on the crossover, rendering it impossible to bring a train into the station. By the time the broken train was fixed and moved, the passengers on the down Dublin-Westport train had already been bused from Castlebar to Westport. The now empty train (Down Dublin-Westport) then followed them into Westport and departed as normal. (Late)

Cookie_Monster

W123-80's wrote: »

From what I am led to believe the train in Westport (Up Westport-Heuston) conked out on the crossover, rendering it impossible to bring a train into the station. By the time the broken train was fixed and moved, the passengers on the down Dublin-Westport train had already been bused from Castlebar to Westport. The now empty train (Down Dublin-Westport) then followed them into Westport and departed as normal. (Late)

Mine was a good guess then:P:D

KC61

The second platform at Westport is not in operational use - passengers cannot board/alight at it.

The track is in use as a siding/loop, but the platform is no longer in operation as the track is outside the mini-ctc signalling.

Cookie_Monster

Pic is 3 years old but I imagine little has changed in the mean time. how is it that a platform at an active station can be "out of bounds". Surely it can be used as required in exceptional circumstances?

dowlingm

Cookie Monster

1. The fun police (RSC) wouldn't wear it - and rightly so because...
2. We don't want to take IE's word on what is and is not "exceptional". All too often exceptional becomes standard practice (as proven by the Baker Tilly Report)

Cookie_Monster

dowlingm wrote: »

Cookie Monster

1. The fun police (RSC) wouldn't wear it - and rightly so because...
2. We don't want to take IE's word on what is and is not "exceptional". All too often exceptional becomes standard practice (as proven by the Baker Tilly Report)

and why shouldn't using 2 platforms in westport be standard practice?

dowlingm

That's a different question - and involves either spending money to extend the platform or waiting for SDO fitting to the 22000 series, plus the expense on reactivating the CTC coverage.

You wanted them to simply say "it's an emergency" and drive on in, the way I read your post.

Yoda

KC61 wrote: »

The second platform at Westport is not in operational use - passengers cannot board/alight at it.

The track is in use as a siding/loop, but the platform is no longer in operation as the track is outside the mini-ctc signalling.

You say this as though with authority.

In fact the second platform IS in use, because there is a little railway museum there, and a footbridge to take you to it. So any train at that platform could allow passengers to disembark and cross the footbridge over to the other side.

Yoda

W123-80's wrote: »

From what I am led to believe the train in Westport (Up Westport-Heuston) conked out on the crossover, rendering it impossible to bring a train into the station. By the time the broken train was fixed and moved, the passengers on the down Dublin-Westport train had already been bused from Castlebar to Westport. The now empty train (Down Dublin-Westport) then followed them into Westport and departed as normal. (Late)

What exactly does "from what I am led to believe" mean? Insider info?

Yoda

dowlingm wrote: »

That's a different question - and involves either spending money to extend the platform or waiting for SDO fitting to the 22000 series, plus the expense on reactivating the CTC coverage.

Could you explain what SDO and CTC means?

GerardKeating

Yoda wrote: »

Could you explain what SDO and CTC means?

"SDO" is Selective Door opening, which is handy where the train is longer than the platform, only doors served by the platform would open.

"CTC" is Central Traffic Control, basically the signalling system.

csd

KC61 wrote: »

The second platform at Westport is not in operational use - passengers cannot board/alight at it.

The track is in use as a siding/loop, but the platform is no longer in operation as the track is outside the mini-ctc signalling.

They went to all the trouble of resignalling the Westport line and didn't include the loop in Westport? They must have been on a very tight budget! How is the turnout from the main line to the loop operated?

/csd

dowlingm

@csd - you should read the Baker Tilly report and find out where the resignalling money went

@yoda - the problem there might be that the second platform no longer conforms to accessibility (no lifts) having lost its legal but non-conforming ("grandfathered") status by having been removed from CTC.

I suppose that IE could sever the trailing tracks and build a crossing point behind buffer stops removing the necessity for the footbridge never mind lifts, but that means diesel multiple unit or push-pull trains only since there would be nowhere for the locomotives to "run around" and change ends, although with the abolition of timber trains I guess that's no longer a problem - except for those who want to run loco specials...

KC61

Yoda wrote: »

You say this as though with authority.

In fact the second platform IS in use, because there is a little railway museum there, and a footbridge to take you to it. So any train at that platform could allow passengers to disembark and cross the footbridge over to the other side.

Since the resignalling, that track is not signalled for use by trains carrying passengers - it is outside the bounds of the mini-ctc system. To use it drivers have to stop and contact the signalmen for clearance to use it but can only do so with no passengers on board. Basically once the trains enter the loop they vanish from the signalling system until they contact the signalman to return.

Yes people can cross the footbridge and walk onto the platform, but you cannot board/alight any trains there.

Reason - I assume cost cutting on the part of Iarnrod Eireann. The same occurred when the Sligo line was resignalled. The former track into the "arrivals" platform in Sligo was removed from operational passenger use and is now a siding. The platform is still actually there but cannot be used to board/alight trains. Only one platform is now signalled for use by trains in passenger service.

Daft I know but that is the situation.

Cookie_Monster

dowlingm wrote: »

You wanted them to simply say "it's an emergency" and drive on in, the way I read your post.

All it requires is a simple point change. People (should) have enough copon not to exit a door 3 ft above the ground cause the platform is too short. H&S BS once again:mad:

KC61

Unfortunately it doesn't anymore - that section of track is outside mini-CTC signalling control and cannot be used by trains in passenger service. Full Stop.

Cookie_Monster

KC61 wrote: »

Unfortunately it doesn't anymore - that section of track is outside mini-CTC signalling control and cannot be used by trains in passenger service. Full Stop.

If a loco hauled train arrives to Westport can it still use the track to run around?

If so then there is no reason why the platform cannot be used. Once the track is useable and the platform still there (which it is) there should be no other reason it cannot be used when required. (apart from the usual irrelevant excuses)

KC61

This sort of cost cutting has also had other daft implications. Cost cutting dictated that the loop platforms at Castlerea on the Westport line and Boyle on the Sligo line were only long enough for three coach trains.

This has had implications on Sundays when two six car railcars are due to pass at Castlerea. The first train has to come into the main platform, collect/discharge passengers, reverse, move into the loop platform, allow the second train into the main platform to collect/discharge passengers, and then both trains pull away.

You could not make this up, but I believe the direction to keep the platforms short came from the very top!

The platform at Boyle has now been lengthened (during the Shannon bridge closure) to fit 6-car trains, but why this could not be done originally is beyond me.

Very shortsighted thinking in terms of saving money in the short term.

KC61

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

If a loco hauled train arrives to Westport can it still use the track to run around?

If so then there is no reason why the platform cannot be used. Once the track is useable and the platform still there (which it is) there should be no other reason it cannot be used when required. (apart from the usual irrelevant excuses)

The loop is an unsignalled siding and as such cannot be used by passenger trains in service - that is the rule.

If a locomotive hauled train arrives into Westport, the locomotive is uncoupled, it runs forward to the marker board, where the driver must obtain permission from CTC to leave the signalled area. That being given, the locomotive then goes forward, the points are then changed, and the locomotive comes back along the loop to the marker signal at the end of it, where the driver again contacts CTC for permission to rejoin the signalled network. He then proceeds forward onto the running line, and reverses back onto the train once the points and signals allow him to do so. That is the (rather bizarre) procedure as I observed one Saturday in Westport some time ago and was explained to me as I watched!

The loop can now only be used to store trains or for locomotives to run around their trains due to it not being signalled.

The platform is also too short for a six-car train so railcars cannot use it anyway.

Cookie_Monster

The more I read the more it baffles me that IE can even manage to run trains in the first place

:rolleyes: That is all.

afatbollix

SO we now know why...


But can I say its the most stupid situation ever... Cant use a bit of track that you can see both ends of..

KC61

And apologies to all and sundry for the rather technical explanations - but there was really no other way of explaining this!

So to answer the original question - if the the first train had broken down while at the main platform in Westport then no passenger train can operate to there, as there is no alternative platform. Passengers would have to be de-trained at Castlebar.

Victor

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

All it requires is a simple point change. People (should) have enough copon not to exit a door 3 ft above the ground cause the platform is too short. H&S BS once again:mad:

What if its dark and the person has poor eyesight or is distracted?

csd

All this for the want of a signal head! How much can that have saved??

<shakes head>

/csd

dmeehan

W123-80's wrote: »

... and departed as normal. (Late)

lol typical

Cookie_Monster

KC61 wrote: »

And apologies to all and sundry for the rather technical explanations - but there was really no other way of explaining this!

So to answer the original question - if the the first train had broken down while at the main platform in Westport then no passenger train can operate to there, as there is no alternative platform. Passengers would have to be de-trained at Castlebar.

What abou if the train pulled up beside the broken one and opened the doors between trains, that way ppl could still get off onto the "correct" platform by simply walking thru the broken train :pac::pac::pac:

Victor wrote: »

What if its dark and the person has poor eyesight or is distracted?

What if...
Train has interior lights, announcements made etc etc etc

Victor

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

What abou if the train pulled up beside the broken one and opened the doors between trains, that way ppl could still get off onto the "correct" platform by simply walking thru the broken train :pac::pac::pac:

Suitable for emergency use, not operational use. I've only heard of it being done once.

What if...
Train has interior lights, announcements made etc etc etc

Humans are intelligent, people are stupid.

W123-80's

Yoda wrote: »

What exactly does "from what I am led to believe" mean? Insider info?

To be fair my post hardly qualifies as insider info.

I did get it from an Irish Rail employee though. I was waiting for my train to Dublin that Sunday evening and asked what happened.

Ham'nd'egger

W123-80's wrote: »

To be fair my post hardly qualifies as insider info.

I did get it from an Irish Rail employee though. I was waiting for my train to Dublin that Sunday evening and asked what happened.

Your source is good! I also heard that there was an incident on the line on the day in question from a staff member who works at Westport (A passenger in my cab as it happens); he told me that a railcar set hit animals on the day in question and had to be withdrawn from passenger service as it suffered minor damage.

Incidentally, the railcar on that evening's Westport train failed at Heuston.

dowlingm

KC61 wrote: »

This sort of cost cutting has also had other daft implications. Cost cutting dictated that the loop platforms at Castlerea on the Westport line and Boyle on the Sligo line were only long enough for three coach trains.

KC61 - how does keeping platforms short save money and how much is saved in capital and current expense? I've always wondered about that.

KC61

Extra building materials/labour I guess?

I really don't know but either way they were farcical decisions as were the various decisions regarding layouts at Westport and Sligo, the planned disconnection of Sligo Quay (handy for storing stock), and the disconnection of North Esk Yard in Cork which I believe a freight customer wants to use, but IE is now citing huge costs, despite telling the minister at the time that it could be reconnected with ease.

It's when you look at the shortsightedness of some of these decisions that you really have to shake your head in frustration. Nonsensical in the extreme.

Incidentally I now understand that the planned works at Boyle have not taken place after all, but have been deferred.

Ham'nd'egger

dowlingm wrote: »

KC61 - how does keeping platforms short save money and how much is saved in capital and current expense? I've always wondered about that.

Wheelchair accessible bridges would probably be required to be fitted.

dowlingm

Hamndegger wrote: »

Wheelchair accessible bridges would probably be required to be fitted.

But why would keeping the platform length to 3 car make any difference there? Not saying you're wrong just trying to figure this out.

Victor

dowlingm wrote: »

But why would keeping the platform length to 3 car make any difference there? Not saying you're wrong just trying to figure this out.

If its an existing, not in use platform, they don't have to do anything.

If they bring the platform into use, the have to spend €200,000+ for bridge and lifts, and it they want 6-car usage, another maybe €100,000 lengthening the platform. I've no idea how much the signalling would cost, but I imagine from thousands to tens of thousands. A few thousands to tens of thousands more if they need extra length in the siding.

Now, is it one train a week that has this problem - when there is the extra afternoon train on Sunday? AFAIK, at all other times there is only one passenger train between Athlone and Westport (excluding Ballina-Manulla Junction).

KC61

Victor wrote: »

If its an existing, not in use platform, they don't have to do anything.

If they bring the platform into use, the have to spend €200,000+ for bridge and lifts, and it they want 6-car usage, another maybe €100,000 lengthening the platform. I've no idea how much the signalling would cost, but I imagine from thousands to tens of thousands. A few thousands to tens of thousands more if they need extra length in the siding.

Now, is it one train a week that has this problem - when there is the extra afternoon train on Sunday? AFAIK, at all other times there is only one passenger train between Athlone and Westport (excluding Ballina-Manulla Junction).

It is purely the platform - the loop is fully signalled and long enough for a six car train or indeed a full liner!!