Foul play, your thoughts.

Snickers Man

There were a couple of incidents in the Ireland Australia match which have sparked some debate down under. Specifically they were the yellow card for Wycliff Palu and later, Rob Kearney's attempt to stop Rocky Elsom as the latter was scoring a try.

You can see both incidents here.

Now let's accept that the Palu one was at least contentious. He seemed to hit Kearney high but the ref actually binned him for not using the arms. However, on the replay he seems to be making an effort to grasp Kearney, which is all that he is required to do under the laws.

Now on the second incident with Elsom, the Australians are saying Kearney should have been binned because this was a "charge" and not a tackle. IF Palu went, so should Kearney.

However it seems to me that what Kearney is attempting to do is PUSH Elsom into touch. The laws are quite specific that anybody can push a ball carrier.

I don't think there are too many Australians on this forum so we can be as candid as we like here without betraying national honour.

Was Kearney "pushing" or "charging"? I know what I think.

Otacon

At the time, I couldn't see why he wasn't at least warned [perhaps because Australia got the try anyway.

He charged TBH, if it was pushing, he would have used his hands or forearms, but he uses his upper arm and shoulder really.

Spore

Snickers Man wrote: »

I know what I think.

So what do you think?

IMO Kearney's was a hit and not a tackle. Should have been carded too.

bleg

kearney should have flattened elsom into touch.

Eoin

I'd say neither of them should have been a yellow card.

Snickers Man

Spore wrote: »

So what do you think?

IMO Kearney's was a hit and not a tackle. Should have been carded too.

I think it was a push. Nothing at all wrong with it.

NotWormBoy

Palu's was trying to use his arms and ended up not being able to, simply because of the ferocity of the hit.

Kearney tried to use one arm, and hit Elsom with the upperarm/shoulder of the other arm. If either was to be yellow-carded, it'd be Kearney, though I'd personally not card either of the tackles/hits.

danthefan

Palu shouldn't have gotten yellow and neither is worth discussing. It's rugby ffs.

itsallaboutheL

i'd go off and dig up the rule book but i couldn't be arsed!!

I'm sure a shoulder to shoulder charge is legal when running for the ball, i'm not so sure what the outcome is when it's tackler vrs. ball carrier..

itsallaboutheL

Palu should have gone for a high tackle either way...

pause the vid at 3 seconds

tolosenc

Ref got the reason wrong, but Palu should have gone nonetheless. I guess Kearney got away with it because the try was scored.

Amabokke

The decisions were correct. It is the tackle's responsibility to ensure he closes his arms around the attacker. Hitting him with your upper body/shoulders is illegal even if your hands "accidentaly" could not close the circle. It was a dangerous tackle by Palu, which I would consider "accidental" but there has to be laws for safety and it is tacklers responsibility to tackle low (waiste) and with both arms.

As for Kearney, nothing illegal about trying to push someone out as long as they still have the ball. TOL high tackle was worse, which did not warrant a yellow card but maybe a penalty.

Aussies will winge as their man got done and they lost the game in the last min.

Stev_o

Amabokke wrote: »

The decisions were correct. It is the tackle's responsibility to ensure he closes his arms around the attacker. Hitting him with your upper body/shoulders is illegal even if your hands "accidentaly" could not close the circle. It was a dangerous tackle by Palu, which I would consider "accidental" but there has to be laws for safety and it is tacklers responsibility to tackle low (waiste) and with both arms.

That's physically impossible to do. The speed of that impact was too great for Palu or infact any profesional sports player to completely wrap Kearney in his arms and hold him.

Kearney bounces off him during the initial impact, Palu has his arms around about 75%. Once the impact is made Kearney is already on the way down before Palu can even react.

If you can re-create the speed and impact of that hit and still manage to wrap your arms completely around the player then you'd be inhuman. It's just not possible.

Amabokke

Stev_o wrote: »

That's physically impossible to do. The speed of that impact was too great for Palu or infact any profesional sports player to completely wrap Kearney in his arms and hold him.

Kearney bounces off him during the initial impact, Palu has his arms around about 75%. Once the impact is made Kearney is already on the way down before Palu can even react.

If you can re-create the speed and impact of that hit and still manage to wrap your arms completely around the player then you'd be inhuman. It's just not possible.

It's very much possible. Tackle lower against the waiste and he would've been able to wrap his arms around. It is difficult for anyone to wrap their arms around an opponents shoulders.

thebossanova

I don't think Palu's tackle was a shoulder charge, but in the letters of the law it is seen as so because the arms weren't wrapped. The higher you go in a tackle the more likely-hood the arms won't wrap if it's done at high speed, but there's plenty of vids out there with guys hitting hard at chest height and being able to wrap the arms. So I would blame Palu's technique rather than intent in not being able to get the arms around.

The laws are there for players safety and going high or leading the tackle with the shoulder are not safe ways to tackle. If Palu had tackled Kearney at stomach height he would have cut him in half!

Snickers Man

Amabokke wrote: »

The decisions were correct. It is the tackle's responsibility to ensure he closes his arms around the attacker. Hitting him with your upper body/shoulders is illegal even if your hands "accidentaly" could not close the circle.

With respect, that is not what the law says. Law 10 g states:
"Dangerous charging
A player must not charge or knock down an opponent carrying the ball without TRYING to grasp that player" (my emphasis)

So if Palu made an attempt to wrap his arms around Kearney, and it seems from the replay that he did, he was within the laws. I think the ref got the decision right but the reasoning wrong. He said it was for "no arms" whereas it appears from the video, although it's not conclusive, that Palu hit Kearney on the chin with his shoulder and that is illegal, regardless of intention.

Law 10 e states "A player must not tackle (or try to tackle) an opponent above the line of the shoulders even if the tackle starts below the line of the shoulders."

So that says to me that even if Palu intended to hit Kearney in the chest while attempting to wrap his arms around him but got him on the chin, that would be a foul.

Where there would seem to be a grey area though is between the limits of the meaning of Law 10 g which insists on some attempt at "grasping" an opponent and the general statement in Law 7 on the Mode of Play which says "Any player may tackle, hold or push a player holding the ball"

It's where a "push" becomes a "charge" that the referee has to decide where a player's actions pass from the legal to the illegal.

For me, Kearney's hit on Elsom as he scores his try is perfectly legitimate. He is not tackling him in the conventional sense but he is not knocking him to the ground either. Elsom is doing that all by himself as he dives to ground the ball. It seems to me that Kearney is trying to push Elsom into touch. His right hand is clearly on Elsom's chest and his left forearm appears to be squashed between his and Elsom's bodies, indicating that he was trying to push him with that hand as well.

Also, there is no law against shoulder charging per se. The only offence is "dangerous charging" as quoted above.

I am just curious if there are any referees here who think that Kearney's attempt on Elsom is illegal. I do a bit of reffing myself at school's level and I'm baffled that anybody has a problem with it.

OldJay

thebossanova wrote: »

I don't think Palu's tackle was a shoulder charge

It wasn't.
It looked worse than it was because he was hitting the upper body.
Wrong call on no arms in the tackle. He hit Kearney so fast. He definitely made an attempt at wrapping.
More a high-tackle than anything else. Penalty would have done.
Wasn't a sin-binning.

PhatPiggins

I'm more concerned that with ROG out Kearney is now tied with Earls as the worst tackler in the team **

** Opinion based the last two seasons and not a reflection on his all round talent. Some terms and conditions apply but nothing nasty or under handed.