having 'the talk'

LegacyUser

Am with my OH for over 18 months and are both ‘mature’. We are both living together and both of us have agreed this is ‘it’. He is starting divorce proceedings from now that he has gathered a few bob and recently he has gotten a very, very good job abroad. I was 100% supportive of this knowing how much work he had put into getting this job and we had agreed that once he got settled in this new location, I would move there with him so as not to have to do the LDR for any length. The company he is moving to is a set up in a quite precarious industry. I am working in a Bank here and my job is safe (for the moment). There is a voluntary severance package and we had planned that we would wait to see how the new job goes before I apply for the VS.

It is illegal for us to live ‘in sin’ where he is moving to and I explained that I would not wish to do that and that I would not move there unless we had a ‘firm plan for the future’ and obviously his divorce was in place. Out timeline is April / May but I guess I need, for my own sake, to have firm assurances from him that marriage is on the cards should I give up my job etc to move with him.

The bottom line is I am asking you how I approach him to find out his plans. He has constantly told me not to worry about the living together issue over there and that he would sort it. He always talks about how good this will be for our future and the kind of place we can live in abroad, the holidays we can have etc. He fully understands I won’t live with him illegally so I assume this means he knows I want marriage but I need to be sure. They have approached someone on my team to take the VS, she is not taking it so maybe it’s my time….

I have given him a large amount of money to do the training for this job and know he will pay me back. It has depleted my savings and I guess I am worried for my financial security in the future should I give up my job. I guess I feel marriage provides me with more security.

How do I ask him, in a non demanding way, what his intentions are?

Barracudaincork

Just ask!

You are assuming way to much, never ever assume stuff you want to know the answer too. You are not demanding wanting to know if his intentions etc are the same as yours. You have a goal or priority in life and that is to marry the person you want to live with etc why is it demanding of you to ask if he thinks the same?

This is your life and your future, so you need to sit him down and get the answers to the questions you have and dont do the whole oh i dont want to ask in case it means we are over thing, if its over, its over and you asking the question will only speed that up not change it. Dont be afraid to ask for what you want in life!!!

Miss Fluff

Hate to be cynical but I read your post and smelt a rather large rat.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds to me like he has got this "job" in the Middle East. Having lived there as a kid I can tell you with certainty that if you are not married then you will have difficulty cohabiting and even getting a visa if you're not married. Have you seen the contract/offer letter?

Isn't it convenient that he has been offered a job far away, somewhere you might not be able to travel to, and he happens to owe you a lot of money as well, i.e. depleted your savings in the process? You sure he's not all set to do a runner?

Tbh I would in no way even entertain the thoughts of taking a voluntary serverage package until absolutely sure everything is above board. Something is not quite right about this situation if you ask me and it is YOUR responsibility for your future happiness/welfare that you find out exactly what is going on for the two of you. To be honest it's a worrying sign also that you want to marry this guy and yet have difficulty in approaching such a momentus topic.

LegacyUser

Thanks for the responses. The funds lent were sent directly to the school he got his qualification from and he doenst actually have any cash but does have a qualification from it. I have met a number of the parties involved and am going there with him in the next few weeks to meet the rest. Its not a scam and I am not worried about my money.

I just dont know how to approach the conversation thats all and was looking for some tips.

SarahSassy

These talks are easier for some people than others and I can sympathise as I am useless at them :rolleyes:

Assuming all is kosher on the money front then the only thing you need to find out is if he is saying you will get married. The only way you can find out is ask.....

I would say just have a chat some evening you are both relaxing and ask him out straight. You know yourself if he is honest or not so draw your own conclusions then. The fact that he is talking about your lives there is very positive and maybe he didnt want to ruin a surprise... Good luck,

seahorse

As another poster put it: "Just ask".

You said: "I assume this means he knows I want marriage". Don't you think that's a very big issue to be making assumptions about? I'm sorry, but I also think it is rather worrying that you'd consider committing for life to a man you feel reluctant to discuss commitment for life with!

The only way you'll sort this out is through direct dialogue.

LegacyUser

Well guys. I asked him last night if he wanted marriage in the future and got back ' I don't know' and ' hadn't thought about it', he had told me before he was open to it but says he forgets that. I am not happy with that response, he claims he loves me but it's just killed something for me- this guy is 45 and should know what he is at. I told him I want a break, am 'sleeping' in the back bedroom tonight and am thoroughly disappointed in him. Circumstances outside of the relationship have been difficult but I always stood beside him, he claims he loves me and wants us together forever to travel the world but I cannot and will not. I am so sad.

Miss Fluff

You poor thing OP. At least now you know though. Better to find this out now rather than after giving up a good job to be with him. I'd start making arrangements to have him pay you back the money he owes you tbh.

kenbrady

Miss Fluff wrote: »

Hate to be cynical but I read your post and smelt a rather large rat.

Me too, it is a well know scam to con people out of money. He needs the money to get training to get a job, to build a better life for the two of you.
The two of you together forever to travel the world. sound like a nice fairytale.
They have fake places setup to accept the money, people you can meet. They groom woman on the internet and take their life savings. Say you did take the severance package from work, I'll assume you would have to use that money to relocate to the foreign country.

Aside from that, how long does divorce proceedings take place ? how soon could you legally get married ? You said he had gathered a bit of money to get divorced, what about the money he owes you ?

LegacyUser

The money will not be an issue - it's not a scam. We have been fully assimilated into each others lives, families and friends etc.

The loss is how lovely he was on a day to day basis and how loved I felt but he would nit seal the deal. He will be getting paid in jan and will startpaying then.

OS119

OP, any place where its illegal for two mature adults to co-habit is a place you don't want to live - married or not.

you are entirely entitled to be very upset. innocently 'not really' thinking about marriage given what you both know about living in this shithole delightful career opportunity with recreational beheadings to attend, is so far from reality as to be beyond belief. either this man is so cronicly stupid as to need help with velcro, or he's very deliberately created a situation where you can't follow him after he's spent your money.

get your money back, and steer well clear.

ps. having lived in such a shithole traditional society, i can say that if you never see a single cent of your money back you'll still have got the better deal.

good luck.

Miss Fluff

NolDrthanks wrote: »

The money will not be an issue - it's not a scam. We have been fully assimilated into each others lives, families and friends etc.

Any convincing con artist would do the same tbh

LegacyUser

Can we please get past the scam scenario. I have seen all the paperwork, know the parties, have seen the qualification etc. I am not worried so no one else needs

He wants me tomove with him. I have 2 old friends living there already and won't have much prob finding a job. He is planning ahead for all of this with me in mind but from what he said without the guarantee of a wedding. He wants me but is not sure if he wants to marry again. I am devestated

herya

Oldrthanks wrote: »

He wants me tomove with him. I have 2 old friends living there already and won't have much prob finding a job. He is planning ahead for all of this with me in mind but from what he said without the guarantee of a wedding. He wants me but is not sure if he wants to marry again. I am devestated

But how can he expect you to move if you can't live together if you're not married - I assume he's got a job in one of the Middle East countries? Does he want the two of you to live separately while you're there? My friend who worked there for a while was telling me how strict it is all the time. If he thinks you can just rent together... Is he deluded or just can't be bothered with arrangements so he pretends it'll be OK?

In other words - what's in it for you? You've already invested your savings, you are supposed to give up your job and what for - to live separately and be under constant surveillance if the two of you want to hold hands in the street?

LegacyUser

I have friends living there who say that many ex pats live together and once you don't flaunt it you are ok. It's not ideal for me and that's why I brought ip the marriage discussion - as an aside he will be home every fortnight for a fortnight.

Miss Fluff

Is this country you are referring to Saudi by any chance? If so, I suggest you go and so some research on how you go about getting a visa. You get a visa based on a work permit or you get a visa because your husband is working there and wants you to move also. You don't just fly over there witha boyfriend and move in with him, it just doesn't work like that. You also said you will have no problem finding a job. I beg to differ.

LegacyUser

No its not Saudi.

How Strange

OP, take a step back and really look at your relationship. What are you getting from it and what will you get from it in the future?

Your OH is a 45 yr old going through a divorce who needed a loan of money to do a course to get a job in a Middle Eastern country. He's about to up and leave for his new job and neither of you have made concrete plans. He's sketchy on the whole issue of how you'll live together but claims he wants you to give up your job and move there with him.

Seriously, it sounds like this guy has the situation exactly how he wants it.

You seem to be going all the giving and getting nothing back.

Either he's not ready or just doesn't want to marry you. Most probably you don't figure in his plans for relocating and he's too much of a coward to tell you that.

Sorry OP, but it really seems like you're being used.

Sit him down and talk quite honestly about the future and ask him what his plans are for the two of you. You mightn't like the answer but at least you'll know.

LegacyUser

Ok... where do I start. I cant go into detail about his current job as its quite specific but there are valid reasons for why he hasnt a lot of cash now. He moved industry after plugging away trainging for years and has started at the bottom on a low wage (move to new job means increase in salary of 4 times), he was ill after starting last job and off work for 6 months on 1/4 salary plus he left with nothing following the separation and took out a big mortgage to buy his house.

His daughter is still badly affected by the split despite how long it is and keeps crying when he mentions me and asking if he loves me more than her. She also says to him that she doesnt want him to get married again... This hurts him a lot and he is not handling it as I would but then its not my kid.

He wants me for life. He wants me to continue to live with him either here or there. he is a bit of a home bird so he is really going there to get a nest egg again, pay off debts and with a view to getting home asap. I dont like my job and love travelling (have lived abroad before) and am happy to do something different. I suggested I move there, he didnt ask me to leave my job but he assured me that if I found it hard to find work there that he would support me.

He is not sure if he ever wants to get married again. He wants me for life but is scared of it failing again even though he thinks we will be together for life. The daughter already doesnt want to stay over cos he is living with his gf and he is afraid she will refuse to see him at all if he gets married. Not rational I know but I do believe him.

My issue with him is not the money or the relocation. I see marriage as a sign of committment but he doesnt. He said he gave it his all the last time and it still didnt work despite having the piece of paper. Its really hard. I am close to 40, love the day to day with him. He is kind, caring and very good to me every day. I just dont know if I can go on without a committment.

magneticimpulse

for 40 you should have found yourself as well. this does not sound like a great situation at all. nobody is judging his status in life...we understand he is qualified and that he does have this job. the posters are judging if this man is really ready for commitment to you?? basically so far i dont think so!!

if he stuck for cash how can you two rent 2 seperate appartments in this country?? you cannot live together without marriage and he said he will not marry you. forget what your friends say. did you not read the article where a british man and woman met at a cocktail party in Dubai (which is meant to be open minded to westerners) were followed by police and arrested because they had pre marital sex?? their faces were all over the news and they were put in prison, then deported and both lost their jobs. she was a high flyer top manager and her company said she brought disgrace. also the people from the TV station who talked about have pre marital sex were arrested, jailed and given 1000 lashes?? do you want to live in that culture in fear because you are not married? please respect that these people are very serious about their culture and make a point to use westerners as examples of what not to do!!!

so basically i see this relationship as over and you are in denial. wake up!! you should move quickly to find someone you, who will want to marry you. someone who doesnt have this baggage. why are you settling for this crappy relationship where you will always come second? where you will always be left behind? you are second to his family, you are second in his choice of country to live in, you come second when it comes to marriage. you should be able to choose what YOU want in life and he is not letting you do it.

Tinkerbell09

he does not want to remarry,
you want to marry him
his daughter does not want him to remarry
he does not see marraige as a commitment
you do.
he is moving to a country where unmarried co-habiting is illegal
you offered to go,

were you hoping that this move would make him show his hand with regards marrying you, if so, im afraid you have your answer.

no way would i move to that country without his ring on my finger -and if he is not willing to do that to ensure my personal safety over there, then i would stay put. i dont know if i would even meet him when he comes home, as it sounds like this man is not ready to settle down into marraige, with anyone, including you. im sorry to be so harsh, but i think its there for you to see.

mood

magneticimpulse wrote: »

for 40 you should have found yourself as well. this does not sound like a great situation at all. nobody is judging his status in life...we understand he is qualified and that he does have this job. the posters are judging if this man is really ready for commitment to you?? basically so far i dont think so!!

if he stuck for cash how can you two rent 2 seperate appartments in this country?? you cannot live together without marriage and he said he will not marry you. forget what your friends say. did you not read the article where a british man and woman met at a cocktail party in Dubai (which is meant to be open minded to westerners) were followed by police and arrested because they had pre marital sex?? their faces were all over the news and they were put in prison, then deported and both lost their jobs. she was a high flyer top manager and her company said she brought disgrace. also the people from the TV station who talked about have pre marital sex were arrested, jailed and given 1000 lashes?? do you want to live in that culture in fear because you are not married? please respect that these people are very serious about their culture and make a point to use westerners as examples of what not to do!!!

so basically i see this relationship as over and you are in denial. wake up!! you should move quickly to find someone you, who will want to marry you. someone who doesnt have this baggage. why are you settling for this crappy relationship where you will always come second? where you will always be left behind? you are second to his family, you are second in his choice of country to live in, you come second when it comes to marriage. you should be able to choose what YOU want in life and he is not letting you do it.

If living together is illegal you can't rick it. Also it is unlikely you will have access to contraception. Will you have to wear a burka? Or will you have to only cover your hair, arms and legs? Will you be able to go anywhere alone (often in such place you can't as a woman)? Would you really be happy with this? Will you really be happy in a place where women are treated like outcasts? Women even have less legal rights in some places! It is not right for him to expect you to live in a place like this.

This man really has a nerve to borrow money from you in order to do a course so he can get a job in a country where you can't live with him! What kind of progress is that?

ladygrey

Hi.

I have a friend who, when faced with same dilemma over relocation due to her relationship, was very pragmatic about it.

She explained to him (when he asked her to move to London) that she'd be willing to upheave her life and sacrifice her networks, work, the immediate day to day support of her freinds etc, for a husband. But, she told him, she was not prepared to give up all that for just a 'boyfriend'. He respected her fortitude and clear thinking on the matter, and her statement of what she felt her (then current) life was worth. IE: she had a great life that she valued, and wasn't prepared to give it up for just anyone.

It worked a treat, and they were married within 3 months.

CDfm

I lived in Saudi and a few people were in that situation and we lived in segregated compounds. The best way to approach it is to ask the company he is with.

It will also depend on the area he lives and works in.

LegacyUser

Ok, so you have the man.

You have the option to live with and travel with the man.

As yet you don't know if its possible for you to that as an unmarried couple, so thats what you need to find out.

I can imagine how hurt you are OP, and I imagine you are very divided over this. Part of me suggests that you be happy to have the man and go on the adventure, and who knows what the future holds.

I'm assuming that as he's already so far up **** creek financially he has nothing more to loose by a second divorce with you if it comes to that. So his reasons for not marrying are... his daughter? Is this an absolutely never, or not while the kid is still so immature?

For me, being married hasn't really changed things, and we are in a similar situation with no joint property and will not be getting joint property for a long time. So marriage then is a symbol... an important one of course. What is marriage for you?

It might be a good idea for you and him to do a few sessions of couples therapy, even just a few, to clarify where you both stand on this and why. Try not to dump him in a huff, you know, act in haste and regret in leisure. Yup, couples therapy for you too.

LegacyUser

His company have no issue as he is paying for his own accomodation. It's a very westernised part of the area and while it's very common for ex pats to live together by the law of the land it is illegal

I know a lot of people are being harsh here in the view that I see sense and believe me I do see sense but at the back of it all is a broken heart with broken dreams

CDfm

Ah right, so the question is take the risk.

Personal risk would relate to the likelyhood of prosecution if caught. So that would be one risk & that depends on the country.

The second issue is that there is a recession on and the financial and career risk to you if you give up your job and the relationship goes pearshaped.

Also, living there is not stress free and the culture.

LegacyUser

OP - why the angst?

You've found a good man, now keep him.

He's not even divorced yet from his first marriage and you want him to marry again. That's much too soon - be reasonable.

And why are you insisting on marriage - you don't want a long distance relationship! You've created the situation for which you need the security of marriage. In effect you're saying "I don't want to be left behind so you'd better marry me, no matter how you feel". You don't need to move there with him. You wrote "It's not ideal for me and that's why I brought ip the marriage discussion - as an aside he will be home every fortnight for a fortnight."

Is that not a lot better than giving up your secure income for a share in what he'll earn in a very precarious job in a non-female friendly society? I know that's not how you see it - you see it as a wonderful opportunity - but don't push so hard for what's not essential, don't lose the wonderful relationship you have. Hold on to it!

Let him go to the job. Let him get used to being divorced, and let his daughter get used to him being divorced. And when everything has settled down and he's more confident in his job and his situation, then talk about moving out there and how it could be arranged.

OS119

Why the angst? wrote: »

OP - why the angst?

You've found a good man, now keep him.

He's not even divorced yet from his first marriage and you want him to marry again. That's much too soon - be reasonable.

And why are you insisting on marriage - you don't want a long distance relationship! You've created the situation for which you need the security of marriage. In effect you're saying "I don't want to be left behind so you'd better marry me, no matter how you feel". You don't need to move there with him. You wrote "It's not ideal for me and that's why I brought ip the marriage discussion - as an aside he will be home every fortnight for a fortnight."

Is that not a lot better than giving up your secure income for a share in what he'll earn in a very precarious job in a non-female friendly society? I know that's not how you see it - you see it as a wonderful opportunity - but don't push so hard for what's not essential, don't lose the wonderful relationship you have. Hold on to it!

Let him go to the job. Let him get used to being divorced, and let his daughter get used to him being divorced. And when everything has settled down and he's more confident in his job and his situation, then talk about moving out there and how it could be arranged.

i think what the OP means is that this move (the training, the the new job, the move abroad) is a 'joint project' - and that the 'jointness' of it was why she stumped up her cash to pay for his training.

not being married - in that society - means the jointness goes out the window. effectively that she paid for someone to go and live in the sun for a few years.

despite the OP repeatedly saying she doesn't think its a con, or perhaps just a convenient get-out - she probably has twigged that if he goes, without them being married, she faces a situation where its possible she'll never see him, or her money, again.

not an attractive possibility - so she sees a serious conversation about marriage not just as a matter of practicalities for living in this shithole traditional community, but as an indicator that the guy is serious and that no, he's not goint to ditch his SIM card as soon as he gets through departures and never speak to her again after she so very kindly paid for his training.

i'm a bit cynical myself - it all just sounds sooo convenient to me....

LegacyUser

I am not at all worried about the money or not seeing him again. I live in his house for god sake. All taking all points on board and appreciate them all

starchild

hi op

your feeling hurt is due to rejection, that is what you perceive to be his rejection of you by not commiting to marriage. I would say that perhaps you should look at it from a different angle. At the moment it would appear he is not for a second saying he doesnt want to be with you. he is simply not commiting to marriage which I think is understandable given that

a) his financial situation is bad and
b) he has a failed marriage behind him
c) he has a huge amount of change going on right now
d) he is probably wary of doing anything to hurt his child while all this change is going on

It doesnt mean he loves you any less , it simply means marriage is not something that is for him right now. Marriage should happen when your happy not when your stressed

I would guess that when he starts his new job and builds his nest egg his thoughts will turn to marriage and if it doesnt well then I would say its up to you to take the decision to walk away if you deem it important enough. I would encourage you to give him a chance to take this all in before you do that.

From reading your posts I believe you are right in saying the money is not an issue and that you would be paid back either way. Im guessing that he simply doesnt view the living together thing as a problem and believes you both will get away with it.

My take on it would be , explain that you are not prepared to move abroad to a culture that frowns on living together out of wedlock, therefore leaving him to go by himself.

I would imagine that within a month or two he will change his perspective on things

I hope things work out for you