Designing my marathon training plan: Long runs

Peckham

(Hoping some of the wise heads will jump into this thread, and compensate for my lack of coaching!)

I'm currently designing my training schedule for London in April, and am a bit stuck on my long runs. Want to incorporate two particular elements on the long runs - 1) speed (as I really feel the benefit of progression/PMP runs), and 2) going beyond planned marathon race time as I'm convinced by the arguments in doing so.

As an aside, I'm also going to avoid gels/carb drinks on the long runs.

Before hitting into the plan I'll be running 15 miles comfortably as a long run (7:15ish pace, but plan to slow down to 7:30ish in training).

Plan I have at the moment (for an 18 week schedule) is below. Adapted from P&D schedule. Questions are:
1) Do I have the right balance of distance v speed
2) Is the distance and speed being introduced at the right time in the schedule
3) Any other observations

Would hugely appreciate input.

17 weeks to go: 15 miles
16 weeks to go: 16 miles
15 weeks to go: 17 miles
14 weeks to go: 18 miles
13 weeks to go: 20 miles
12 weeks to go: 15 miles
11 weeks to go: 3 hour run (slow pace, 22-23 miles)
10 weeks to go: 20 miles
9 weeks to go: 15 with 12@PMP
8 weeks to go: 18 miles
7 weeks to go: 3.25 hour run (slow pace, 24 miles)
6 weeks to go: 18 miles (progression*)
5 weeks to go: 17 miles
4 weeks to go: 18 miles (progression*)
3 weeks to go: 20 miles
2 weeks to go: 17 miles
1 week to go: 13 miles

*first third PMP+45secs, second third PMP+15secs, final third PMPminus15secs

Sosa

I am planning something similar for my next one also Peckham.
Definitely agree with the 3 hour runs.
My longest on my feet before Dublin was 2:45 when i did 22 and twice 2:30 for 20 miles....you do need to get used to running for 3 hours +

Those Progression runs look very tough,even reading them out and calculating the pace made me sweat in my chair.

I look forward to seeing some replies myself.

Peckham

Sosa wrote: »

Those Progression runs look very tough,even reading them out and calculating the pace made me sweat in my chair.

They're really worth it though!

PVincent

I am not an expert by any means but I have done 5 marathons ...Your schedule looks extremely tough and the first stand out is that there is no obvious taper at the end of the schedule ...17 miles 2 weeks before and 13 the week before is way too much ...you wont recover from them ...you have a serious amount of miles in there and again I dont know how new to running you are and what your capability is , but with all those miles you are going to have to build some serious rest and recovery into the week if you hope to be reasonably fresh every weekend for a long run ...bear in mind that weather will not be overyly friendly at that time of the year and will impact with rain/wind and cold ...you can get very hooked up on times and distances and having such a detailed plan can cause difficulties ...if you are feeling off colour , you may just go out and run just because its in your plan and that is not always a good thing as you can do damage ...you must respect the body and listen to it ..
Not sure what logic you are applying to avoiding the use of the drinks and gels ...is it because you dont like them ...there is nothing that I know or have heard of that says you should train without them and then use them in a marathon for a better impact ...

invest in a book called Marthon Running for Mortals by John Bingham...best ever ever ever book on running and training for a marathon ..(try your library )

Peckham

Thanks PVincent

Background to me is: 3 marathons (Dublin 06/07/08). Time has improved each time from 3:26 to 3:06 to 3:00. First marathon was on a beginner training plan, second and third were on Pfitzinger/Douglas plans maxing at 55-60 miles per week. Plan is to max at 65 this time. Target time to be confirmed, suffice it to say that I'd like to go sub-3!

Take your point on board re taper, but it's in line with what I've done previously. Just checked my plans from last two times and they finished 16-12 over the last two weekends. Could cut it back to this I suppose.

Good point re weather. Having only done Dublin, am used to summer training. Guess I'll need to prepare myself for abandoned/shortened runs due to weather/feeling run down in poor weather. Have gotten through last week running ever day though!

I used gels a little too heavily in training for first two marathons, cut back last time, thought cutting back further would help the body adapt to long distance a bit better. Plan is to bring one "emergency" gel on each run, along with electrolyte drink and water.

--amadeus--

I'm not in any position to advise really but...

That's a tough plan - like PVincent I guess I'd be concerned about the lack of fallback weeks. Week 12, maybe week 5 (though you could argue about that one). You'll need to be really careful about rest days and recovery runs to make sure you can get value out of your other sessions. If you are trying to fit in a midweek midlength LSR and a speed session balancing it all and making sure you're strong and not overtraining.

Question as well - I thought progression runs built to PMP not faster than PMP. I can see the theory (tough, tough session). Where did you get that from - is it your own?

Woddle

Your probably more experienced than I Peckham but I like it , I think Amadeus makes a good point about balance though and trying to fit in the mid week long run and the the bit of speed may cause you a few head aches, I think your a very capable runner and I think your body will take this but of course never be afraid to miss a session and never play catch up.
Regarding gels my own expeience has taught me not to take them in training and save them for the big day, my last 2 marathons I trained with gels and felt they were useless on Marathon day, but Dublin 08 I didn't train with them, took part in an experiment with HI5 and Glasgow university and I felt the benefit of every gel (about 10 in total )
As for training through the winter it ain't that bad, I never missed a single lsr because of weather however I do remember doing some speed sessions on a treadmill as I didn't want to risk been hit with a few snowballs.
So in brief Go for it, I think having a read of Tungunskas new log is a must and I'm now a believer in sensible experimenting

Krusty_Clown

Looks like a great plan, and I'd love to give it a go, if it works out well for you. When's the book coming out?

PMP minus 15 seconds will be close to half-marathon pace (around pmp -21 seconds), which will be extremely tough after having covered 12 miles already. It'll build great mental strength (and respect!).

Peckham

--amadeus-- wrote: »

That's a tough plan - like PVincent I guess I'd be concerned about the lack of fallback weeks.

Yeah, maybe I need to look a bit closer at my fallback weeks. I guess I was overly concerned with distributing the hardcore sessions, and have sacrificed a bit on recovery. Point taken, thanks.

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Question as well - I thought progression runs built to PMP not faster than PMP. I can see the theory (tough, tough session). Where did you get that from - is it your own?

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

PMP minus 15 seconds will be close to half-marathon pace (around pmp -21 seconds), which will be extremely tough after having covered 12 miles already. It'll build great mental strength (and respect!).

I took the progression run details from McMillan. Was based on the following....

Over the last third of the run, you increase your speed so that you're running a strong, comfortably hard pace. For many competitive runners this effort corresponds to somewhere around marathon race pace to as fast as half-marathon race pace and a heart rate between 80 and 90% of maximum

--amadeus--

Well that makes sense on the Progression runs, thanks.

If you are feeling really hardcore a suggestion I had from Seb (which I hope he's ok with my sharing) is:

5-6 miles @ PMP
5-6 miles @ PHMP
5-6 miles @ 10k pace

The idea being to replicate the difficulty of running PMP after 24 or 25 miles.

Any chance you could put up the entire plan for us to steal look at?

Krusty_Clown

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Well that makes sense on the Progression runs, thanks.

If you are feeling really hardcore a suggestion I had from Seb (which I hope he's ok with my sharing) is:

5-6 miles @ PMP
5-6 miles @ PHMP
5-6 miles @ 10k pace

The idea being to replicate the difficulty of running PMP after 24 or 25 miles.

Any chance you could put up the entire plan for us to steal look at?

If you're proposing running close to 10k at 10k pace, after running 10-12 miles @ faster than marathon pace, then you're obviously not pushing yourself hard enugh in your 10Ks.

--amadeus--

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

If you're proposing running close to 10k at 10k pace, after running 10-12 miles @ faster than marathon pace, then you're obviously not pushing yourself hard enugh in your 10Ks.

You know what that never even occurred to me when we were talking. Either I misheard, misremember or Seb is one tough coach :P

Sosa

--amadeus-- wrote: »

5-6 miles @ PMP
5-6 miles @ PHMP
5-6 miles @ 10k pace

Any chance you could put up the entire plan for us to steal look at?

That seems absolute lunacy to me.
How do you expect to run
6 @ 6:50 pace,then 6 @ sub 6:30 pace and then (almost)race a 10k ?
Come on now,thats not possible...
The first third is a good aerobic run,the second is a very good tempo run and the last...well...it is what it is...

I too,would like a look at the whole plan.....

--amadeus--

Sosa wrote: »

That seems absolute lunacy to me.
How do you expect to run
6 @ 6:50 pace,then 6 @ sub 6:30 pace and then (almost)race a 10k ?
Come on now,thats not possible...
The first third is a good aerobic run,the second is a very good tempo run and the last...well...it is what it is...

I too,would like a look at the whole plan.....

Yeah, I must have either picked him up wrong or I'm remembering wrong. It was def a longish run starting at PMP and getting faster though - I must have the segment lengths wrong.

Racing Flat

Peckham wrote: »

As an aside, I'm also going to avoid gels/carb drinks on the long runs.

What's your race strategy with gels/drinks I'd try to replicate this during long runs. Hiale struggled with his first maarthon (i.e. he ran 2.06 instead of 2.04...) and puit it down to not being used to getting the fuel on board. So I'd try to be well practised at getting these things down on the run and keeping them down, without problems.

Peckham wrote: »

Before hitting into the plan I'll be running 15 miles comfortably as a long run (7:15ish pace, but plan to slow down to 7:30ish in training).

If you're up to 15 miles before even starting the plan, you'll be well prepared. But if 7.15 is comfortable, why drop to 7.30? I can't see the point in running slower than is comfortable, but maybe I've picked you up wrong.

Peckham wrote: »

1) Do I have the right balance of distance v speed
2) Is the distance and speed being introduced at the right time in the schedule
3) Any other observations

Would hugely appreciate input.

17 weeks to go: 15 miles
16 weeks to go: 16 miles
15 weeks to go: 17 miles
14 weeks to go: 18 miles
13 weeks to go: 20 miles
12 weeks to go: 15 miles
11 weeks to go: 3 hour run (slow pace, 22-23 miles)
10 weeks to go: 20 miles
9 weeks to go: 15 with 12@PMP
8 weeks to go: 18 miles
7 weeks to go: 3.25 hour run (slow pace, 24 miles)
6 weeks to go: 18 miles (progression*)
5 weeks to go: 17 miles
4 weeks to go: 18 miles (progression*)
3 weeks to go: 20 miles
2 weeks to go: 17 miles
1 week to go: 13 miles

*first third PMP+45secs, second third PMP+15secs, final third PMPminus15secs

First thing that jumped out with me is every week is long. Only problem I see with that, is that there will not be space to fit in races. I don't think you need more than one a month, but I think 2 or 3 longer races (maybe 10k, 10mile, half marathon) would be useful to get used to racing again, build the mental strength, 'rehearse' pre race eating routines etc. On race weeks I would not run long - tie it in at the end of an easy week, looking for a very strong performance.

Secondly, your runs in weeks 4,5, and 6 to go are quite short. E.g. the 18mile run at those paces will only take 2 hours 10 mins or so. So you won't have gone properly 'long' i.e. 2.30 or so any later than 7 weeks before. Is this intentional? You know more about it than me, but I'd imagine getting the longest runs in in the few weeks before taper would be the way to go?

Thirdly I don't really see the point of the 2 3hour plus runs. Being on your feet for as long as you are going to race is more important for novice runners, I think. For an experienced marathoner aiming for 3 hours, I don't think there's any need to go above 2.50 or so. I may well be wrong in that.

Fourthly, introducing a 12mile PMP run at 9 weeks to go, with no prior work at PMP might be difficult - maybe build up to the 12 more gradually?

I think I'd go something like this...

17 weeks to go: 15 miles
16 weeks to go: 16 miles
15 weeks to go: 17 miles
14 weeks to go: 18 miles
13 weeks to go: race 10k
12 weeks to go: 18 miles
11 weeks to go: 20 miles
10 weeks to go: 18 miles
9 weeks to go: race 10 miles
8 weeks to go: 20 miles
7 weeks to go: 22 miles
6 weeks to go: 20 miles
5 weeks to go: race half marathon
4 weeks to go: 22 miles
3 weeks to go: 22 miles
2 weeks to go: 16 miles
1 week to go: 12 miles

aero2k

Hi Peckam,

A few comments based on my own experience. It looks like your general approach is similar to mine.

Peckham wrote: »

Want to incorporate two particular elements on the long runs - 1) speed (as I really feel the benefit of progression/PMP runs), and 2) going beyond planned marathon race time as I'm convinced by the arguments in doing so.

Sounds sensible

Peckham wrote: »

As an aside, I'm also going to avoid gels/carb drinks on the long runs.

I had thought about this approach for DCM '09, but changed based on feedback I received here. I messed around with various approaches on my long runs and by luck found something that worked on the big day - though I did throw up just after the finish line. Make sure you can tolerate whatever you plan to use for the race. Also try weighing yourself before and after your long runs just to see how much you lose - the result should convince you to drink loads of water on these runs.

Peckham wrote: »

1) Do I have the right balance of distance v speed
2) Is the distance and speed being introduced at the right time in the schedule
3) Any other observations

I had to look back at my notes to see what I did. It seems for the last 12 weeks that every long run included at least 4 miles @PMP (I had one other session each week with miles @ HMP or 10k pace). You may want to consider a variation on this.

PVincent wrote: »

Your schedule looks extremely tough and the first stand out is that there is no obvious taper at the end of the schedule ...17 miles 2 weeks before and 13 the week before is way too much ...you wont recover from them ...

Peckham wrote: »

Take your point on board re taper, but it's in line with what I've done previously. Just checked my plans from last two times and they finished 16-12 over the last two weekends. .

I'm with you on this Peckham. I did approx 17 and 12 for the last two weekends. As for recovery, my week only has two hard sessions, the rest is pretty easy, and I get loads of rest. You'll be fine if you do something similar.

Racing Flat wrote: »

But if 7.15 is comfortable, why drop to 7.30? I can't see the point in running slower than is comfortable, but maybe I've picked you up wrong.

I think it's better to do some miles at 7.30 and some at 7.00, than all at 7.15.

Racing Flat wrote: »

First thing that jumped out with me is every week is long. Only problem I see with that, is that there will not be space to fit in races. I don't think you need more than one a month, but I think 2 or 3 longer races (maybe 10k, 10mile, half marathon) would be useful to get used to racing again, build the mental strength, 'rehearse' pre race eating routines etc. On race weeks I would not run long - tie it in at the end of an easy week, looking for a very strong performance.

I'd definitely do some races as suggested above.

Racing Flat wrote: »

Secondly, your runs in weeks 4,5, and 6 to go are quite short. E.g. the 18mile run at those paces will only take 2 hours 10 mins or so. So you won't have gone properly 'long' i.e. 2.30 or so any later than 7 weeks before. Is this intentional? You know more about it than me, but I'd imagine getting the longest runs in in the few weeks before taper would be the way to go?

I'd try to do a long run about 3 weeks out.

Racing Flat wrote: »

For an experienced marathoner aiming for 3 hours, I don't think there's any need to go above 2.50 or so. I may well be wrong in that.

Well, the extra 10 mins won't hurt much physically, and is invaluable mentally.

Racing Flat wrote: »

Fourthly, introducing a 12mile PMP run at 9 weeks to go, with no prior work at PMP might be difficult - maybe build up to the 12 more gradually?

I started with 4 @ PMP and added them in gradually. There's no way I could have managed to jump straight in with 12 @ PMP, physically or psychologically.

tunguska

Peckham wrote: »

(Hoping some of the wise heads will jump into this thread, and compensate for my lack of coaching!)

I'm currently designing my training schedule for London in April, and am a bit stuck on my long runs. Want to incorporate two particular elements on the long runs - 1) speed (as I really feel the benefit of progression/PMP runs), and 2) going beyond planned marathon race time as I'm convinced by the arguments in doing so.

As an aside, I'm also going to avoid gels/carb drinks on the long runs.

Before hitting into the plan I'll be running 15 miles comfortably as a long run (7:15ish pace, but plan to slow down to 7:30ish in training).

Plan I have at the moment (for an 18 week schedule) is below. Adapted from P&D schedule. Questions are:
1) Do I have the right balance of distance v speed
2) Is the distance and speed being introduced at the right time in the schedule
3) Any other observations

Would hugely appreciate input.

17 weeks to go: 15 miles
16 weeks to go: 16 miles
15 weeks to go: 17 miles
14 weeks to go: 18 miles
13 weeks to go: 20 miles
12 weeks to go: 15 miles
11 weeks to go: 3 hour run (slow pace, 22-23 miles)
10 weeks to go: 20 miles
9 weeks to go: 15 with 12@PMP
8 weeks to go: 18 miles
7 weeks to go: 3.25 hour run (slow pace, 24 miles)
6 weeks to go: 18 miles (progression*)
5 weeks to go: 17 miles
4 weeks to go: 18 miles (progression*)
3 weeks to go: 20 miles
2 weeks to go: 17 miles
1 week to go: 13 miles

*first third PMP+45secs, second third PMP+15secs, final third PMPminus15secs

Looks good to me Peckham. Although I'd argue a case for higher mileage than 65/week. Judging by your marathon times I think you could well handle 80 miles/week.But keeping it Quality stuff, not just adding junk mileage.

Peckham

Racing Flat wrote: »

What's your race strategy with gels/drinks I'd try to replicate this during long runs. Hiale struggled with his first maarthon (i.e. he ran 2.06 instead of 2.04...) and puit it down to not being used to getting the fuel on board. So I'd try to be well practised at getting these things down on the run and keeping them down, without problems.

Thanks for this - don't want to overdo the gels. Maybe I'll use the longest runs as rehearsals in terms of gel consumption. Want to make sure I strike a balance between getting used to them, and not relying on them. Have never had problems with gels before, so am not worried about them giving me issues.

Racing Flat wrote: »

If you're up to 15 miles before even starting the plan, you'll be well prepared. But if 7.15 is comfortable, why drop to 7.30? I can't see the point in running slower than is comfortable, but maybe I've picked you up wrong.

I'm comfortable at 7.15 running 15 miles on a 40 mile week. Will see how I fare in terms of pace running 20 miles on a 65 mile week!

Thanks also for your idea of long run structure across the weeks. Would like to get out for some 3-3:15 hour runs, but will take the rest on board.

aero2k wrote: »

I had to look back at my notes to see what I did. It seems for the last 12 weeks that every long run included at least 4 miles @PMP (I had one other session each week with miles @ HMP or 10k pace). You may want to consider a variation on this.

PMP on every long run for the last 12 weeks? What was your longest PMP run, and were most of them in the 4 mile range or at the longer range?

tunguska wrote: »

Looks good to me Peckham. Although I'd argue a case for higher mileage than 65/week. Judging by your marathon times I think you could well handle 80 miles/week.But keeping it Quality stuff, not just adding junk mileage.

My body might be able to handle 80/week, but to be honest my motivation to spend that long running doesn't exist. If 65/week doesn't produce the results I'd like to get, then so be it. That's my (and Mrs Peckham's) limit! Unless my job becomes a victim of the recession, and my 3+ hours commuting every day disappear, then 65 is the peak for me!

aero2k

Peckham wrote: »

PMP on every long run for the last 12 weeks? What was your longest PMP run, and were most of them in the 4 mile range or at the longer range?

Hi Peckham,

I tried to cut and paste my log here but it came out a mess, so here's a link
http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AcN2ILvWdxnoZHM0ZjJ0OV8yNHA5a2toZ2Q&hl=en

tunguska

Peckham wrote: »

my 3+ hours commuting every day disappear, then 65 is the peak for me!

3+hrs commuting every day! Wow, that'd drive me nuts, fair play to you.