Ireland's forgotten war - the Tithe War ?

McArmalite

Reading up on the Carrickshock Incident 1831 posted by Morlar a while ago, I searched Google to find out more about the Tithe War in general, but most of the links I found were of little use. About the best I could find was on wiki, and I know how wiki can sometimes be unreliable, depending on the agenda of the poster etc. But anyway, since it was the best I found yet, I'll post some details from it. If anyone else has some good information on the Tithe War I'd be gald if you could post it.

The Tithe War refers to a series of violent incidents in Ireland between 1831-36 in reaction to the seizure goods by the Irish Constabulary in respect of arrears of Tithes, a tax payable for the upkeep of the Anglican protestant Church of Ireland. As far as I know it wasn't exclusively a tax on Catholics, as others such as Prysbetarian's, Jewish people etc had to pay it in britain as well as Ireland - but if anyone has more information I'd be glad to see it. But since Catholics were the most disadvantaged in the british imposed secterian caste system, they naturally enough were the most strongly resentful of it. The Catholic bishops and priests were very supportive of their congegation challenging this injustice, but ofcourse when their congregation challenged other injustices they were full square behind the british.

As for the scale of the war, according to wiki in 1831 alone " the authorities recorded 242 homicides, 1,179 robberies, 401 burglaries, 568 burnings, 280 cases of cattle-maiming, 161 assaults, 203 riots and 723 attacks on property directly attributed to seizure order enforcement. "

The british govt realising it was costing more than it was worth, one official lamented that “ it cost a shilling to collect tuppence ", In 1839 parliament introduced the Tithe Commutation Act. This reduced the amount payable by about a quarter and made the remainder payable in rent to landlords. They in turn would pass payment to the authorities. Tithes were thus effectively added to a tenant's rent payment. This partial relief and elimination of the confrontational collections ended the conflict.

Catholics, were finally relived of payment of tithes after the disestablishement of the Church of Ireland by the Gladstone government in 1869.

Anyway, here's the wiki link but if anyone has any reliable links or know a good book on the subject I would be interested if you could post it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tithe_War

Ponster

Ask your local library to get a copy of Tipperary's tithe war 1830 - 1838 : - Noreen Higgins.

It has good info but as you can guess, specific to Tipperary.

Otherwise you can search the Dublin Libraries here

Fratton Fred

I think the Op should first start by understanding what a Tithe was, how it originated and how widely it was collected.

Everybody paid Tithes, it was meant to be ten per cent of everything you produced. There are still a large number of Tithe Barns in England where the Tithes were collected.

The Catholic Church was not against Tithes, in fact (and again, it's from Wiki, but hey, it's convenient)

Wikipedia wrote:

Tithes were introduced after the Norman conquest of 1169-1172, and were specified in the papal bull Laudabiliter as a duty to: ...pay yearly from every house the pension of one penny to St Peter, and to keep and preserve the rights of the churches in that land whole and inviolate. However, collection outside the Norman area of control was sporadic.

Tithes were also collected all over Europe and the Roman Catholic Church was quite happy to accept Tithes from native Americans living in countries under the Spanish Empire, despite their protestations.

McArmalite

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I think the Op should first start by understanding what a Tithe was, how it originated and how widely it was collected.

Everybody paid Tithes, it was meant to be ten per cent of everything you produced. There are still a large number of Tithe Barns in England where the Tithes were collected.

The Catholic Church was not against Tithes, in fact (and again, it's from Wiki, but hey, it's convenient)



Tithes were also collected all over Europe and the Roman Catholic Church was quite happy to accept Tithes from native Americans living in countries under the Spanish Empire, despite their protestations.

The OP is aware that their were other Tithe taxes in Europe, of which the boyos in the Catholic Church did not object to, - so long as they were benefitting or it didn't affect them ofcourse. But I'm specifically interested in how they affected Ireland and the events surrounding the Tithe War in Ireland.

Fratton Fred

McArmalite wrote: »

The OP is aware that their were other Tithe taxes in Europe, of which the boyos in the Catholic Church did not object to, - so long as they were benefitting or it didn't affect them ofcourse. But I'm specifically interested in how they affected Ireland and the events surrounding the Tithe War in Ireland.

Your OP gave me the impression that the local Priests were defending their poor parishoners from an evil tax. in reality, they were probably just pissed off they weren't getting the money themselves:D

Morlar

I think you guys should start calling each other 'the right honourable member' and be done with it

donaghs

McArmalite wrote: »

As far as I know it wasn't exclusively a tax on Catholics, as others such as Prysbetarian's, Jewish people etc had to pay it in britain as well as Ireland - but if anyone has more information I'd be glad to see it. But since Catholics were the most disadvantaged in the british imposed secterian caste system, they naturally enough were the most strongly resentful of it. The Catholic bishops and priests were very supportive of their congegation challenging this injustice, but ofcourse when their congregation challenged other injustices they were full square behind the british.
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There's plenty of info on the web about it. I'd imagine Catholic Emancipation and the Famine takes precedence in people minds when they look back on the early to mid-19th c. Possibly Catholic Emancipation was more important to the Catholic elite like O'Connell, as it would allow them them political power and influence - whereas ordinary Catholics would be more concerned with unfair taxes. Also, the Leaving Cert History begins after the Famine, but the CofI Disestablishishment gets plenty of notice.

You phrase it as if it was an anti-Catholic plot. Tithes in Ireland preceeded the Reformation, and simply followed the "official" state-backed church, regardless of how popular it was. As I understand they had to paid by all, even a would-be-atheist.

Interestingly, Oswald Moseley's Blackshirts helped out with an anti-tithe protest in East Anglia in the 1930s. That would have some people scratching their heads about who to support!http://www.bbc.co.uk/suffolk/content/articles/2009/01/14/sculpture_raps_feature.shtml
All forms of government approved tithe payments were finally scrapped in the UK in 1977. In Germany, if you're registered with a recognised church don't they deduct your church tax at source?

Snickers Man

donaghs wrote: »

In Germany, if you're registered with a recognised church don't they deduct your church tax at source?

Jawohl! It's called Kirchensteur (Church Tax). However, I believe that it simply diverts some of your tax take to your recognised church. So if you say you are an atheist you don't pay any less tax. The government keeps it for its own purposes.

Snickers Man

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Tithes were also collected all over Europe and the Roman Catholic Church was quite happy to accept Tithes from native Americans living in countries under the Spanish Empire, despite their protestations.

Yes but why should people pay taxes to a church to which they do not belong?

Should non motorists pay car tax?

Come on.

Fratton Fred

I wonder if anarchists get a full exemption?

MarchDub

Although as pointed out by posters here [including the two honourable gentlemen] that tithes were common and widespread in other countries the problem for the Church of Ireland was that although it was the established church it was composed of a minority congregation. This made it a unique situation in European terms and necessarily involved the police and army in the collection of these tithes from an unwilling people. The major part of the tithes to support C of I priests and buildings came from members of other congregations - and what made the situation worse, the burden of payment was not evenly distributed because farms of grazier land [pasture land] were exempt which put the burden on smaller landholders . This caused widespread resentment and, from the C of I Church's point of view, was a precarious income.

Here is an article in History Ireland showing the dependence of the clergy on the tithes and explaining the uneven distribution of the tithe payment-

http://www.historyireland.com/volumes/volume13/issue4/features/?id=113869

William Carleton's novel The Tithe Proctor: Being the Tale of Tithe Rebellion in Ireland originally published in 1849 is based on the Tithe War and in this introduction he says that he interviewed people who were involved in many of the incidents including "the massacre at Carrickshock" as he describes it. Carlton wrote about everyday experiences based on what information he could get of actual events. The project Gutenberg has placed his work on line - here is a link to his novel. Scroll to to Chapter XVI for his description of what occurred at Carrickshock.

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/16010/16010-h/16010-h.htm

Fratton Fred

Snickers Man wrote: »

Yes but why should people pay taxes to a church to which they do not belong?

Should non motorists pay car tax?

Come on.

I didn't say it was right, only that it was common practice.

McArmalite

donaghs wrote: »

There's plenty of info on the web about it.

Well could you post them.

I'd imagine Catholic Emancipation and the Famine takes precedence in people minds when they look back on the early to mid-19th c. Possibly Catholic Emancipation was more important to the Catholic elite like O'Connell, as it would allow them them political power and influence - whereas ordinary Catholics would be more concerned with unfair taxes. Also, the Leaving Cert History begins after the Famine, but the CofI Disestablishishment gets plenty of notice.

Good point regarding the Catholic elite and them been concerned with repeal of anti Catholic legislation to allow them them political power and influence. As for the Leaving Cert - good few years since I did it

You phrase it as if it was an anti-Catholic plot. Tithes in Ireland preceeded the Reformation, and simply followed the "official" state-backed church, regardless of how popular it was. As I understand they had to paid by all, even a would-be-atheist.

No I don't phrase it as if it was an anti-Catholic plot and I don't know how anyone can think I did. From the original post " But since Catholics were the most disadvantaged in the british imposed secterian caste system, they naturally enough were the most strongly resentful of it. The Catholic bishops and priests were very supportive of their congegation challenging this injustice, but ofcourse when their congregation challenged other injustices they were full square behind the british......As far as I know it wasn't exclusively a tax on Catholics, as others such as Prysbetarian's, Jewish people etc had to pay it in britain as well as Ireland - but if anyone has more information I'd be glad to see it. "

Interestingly, Oswald Moseley's Blackshirts helped out with an anti-tithe protest in East Anglia in the 1930s. That would have some people scratching their heads about who to support!http://www.bbc.co.uk/suffolk/content/articles/2009/01/14/sculpture_raps_feature.shtml
All forms of government approved tithe payments were finally scrapped in the UK in 1977. In Germany, if you're registered with a recognised church don't they deduct your church tax at source?