Intern hours

candlegrease

What's the latest on the plan to reduce intern's working hours? Will this be happening at all?

imported_guy

if you mean the EU hours, i havent heard anything (except that ireland needs to triple the ammount of doctors to actully be able to implement EWTD), but some hospitals are doing it to cut costs (Bons cork, interns can only work upto 10pm, no night on-calls) but in CUH etc they still do on-calls/weekends(dont know if its a full 48 hour weekend though)

drzhivago

candlegrease wrote: »

What's the latest on the plan to reduce intern's working hours? Will this be happening at all?

Hours reduced in many places

What is your exact query
It is the law, there will be significant fines if not implemented

Will be a few years of shady dealing
Consultants will probably end up doing more nights, SPRs doing on call with interns, possibly interns not doing nights at all

candlegrease

drzhivago wrote: »

Hours reduced in many places

What is your exact query
It is the law, there will be significant fines if not implemented

Will be a few years of shady dealing
Consultants will probably end up doing more nights, SPRs doing on call with interns, possibly interns not doing nights at all

My query: Interns reputedly do very long hours, sometimes up to 8o hour weeks. Will their hours be reduced?

imported_guy

candlegrease wrote: »

My query: Interns reputedly do very long hours, sometimes up to 8o hour weeks. Will their hours be reduced?

main reason for long hours is education, if you do 40-50 hours a week you wont learn as much, and will not get exposure to cases which you should be getting, if EWTD comes in everyone's hours will be reduced, including interns, but if it doesnt come in, its up to the hospitals to decide, and it doesnt look very likely that EWTD will come over here in its current form anytime soon.

edit, 80 hours is nothing, there are pople doing 90-100 atleast as SHO's if not interns

drzhivago

imported_guy wrote: »

main reason for long hours is education, if you do 40-50 hours a week you wont learn as much, and will not get exposure to cases which you should be getting, if EWTD comes in everyone's hours will be reduced, including interns, but if it doesnt come in, its up to the hospitals to decide, and it doesnt look very likely that EWTD will come over here in its current form anytime soon.

edit, 80 hours is nothing, there are pople doing 90-100 atleast as SHO's if not interns

Sorry to have to be the one to correct again but education has nothing to do with this

Reason for long hours is history

When I started work we didnt get paid beyond 65 hours hence cheaper for hospital to have people working long hours than have two people working shorter hours

If doctors did doctoring then reduced hours should not necessarily mean less exposure

If people were in hospitals for busy periods and not lots of people around when little to do exposure wont go down.

EWTD is law and is the limit in some hospitals now, since I started working 16 years ago hours have been coming down each year, small amounts but none doing 1/2 resident on calls anymore

To the OP it depends which hospital you work in what hours you work, depends what year you are in college what hours you are likely to work when you get out

2Scoops

drzhivago wrote: »

Sorry to have to be the one to correct again but education has nothing to do with this

+1

An 80 hour week will not educate you better or faster, or expose you to more cases. Putting in cannulas at 3 am doesn't make you any better than if you did them at 3 pm, went home and got a good night's sleep. imported_guy, someone fed you a line a crap, sorry. :pac:

imported_guy

drzhivago wrote: »

Sorry to have to be the one to correct again but education has nothing to do with this

thats great i dont mind at all, i still fail to see how history is a better reason than education

drzhivago wrote: »

Reason for long hours is history

When I started work we didnt get paid beyond 65 hours hence cheaper for hospital to have people working long hours than have two people working shorter hours

why did you come in for more than 65 hours then? im sure it has atleast something to do with education

drzhivago wrote: »

If doctors did doctoring then reduced hours should not necessarily mean less exposure

no it doesnt mean that but its a rule of thumb, just like, if you do a serious crime you should go to jail, but im sure donte stallworth will dissagree with you, or else when youre in school, you get the same education if you sit at the front, or the back, but im sure the people who sit at the front pay genrally pay more attention, (and so are genrally smarter)

drzhivago wrote: »

If people were in hospitals for busy periods and not lots of people around when little to do exposure wont go down.

thats true, but you wont always get an internship in a busy hospital

drzhivago wrote: »

EWTD is law and is the limit in some hospitals now, since I started working 16 years ago hours have been coming down each year, small amounts but none doing 1/2 resident on calls anymore

what hospitals have EWTD (in ireland)?? source?

drzhivago wrote: »

To the OP it depends which hospital you work in what hours you work, depends what year you are in college what hours you are likely to work when you get out

umm... you dont do an internship until you graduate, im sure youre thinking of clinical rotations, something entirely different.

2Scoops wrote: »

+1

An 80 hour week will not educate you better or faster, or expose you to more cases. Putting in cannulas at 3 am doesn't make you any better than if you did them at 3 pm, went home and got a good night's sleep. imported_guy, someone fed you a line a crap, sorry. :pac:

i guess if you read your own post again it will make sense

if you study more/spend more time reading books, you learn more in school/college, putting cannula in at 3am/pm wont make you better but doing it more oftem / repition will make you better, im sure you will agree.

im also guessing you have never crammed a week before an exam either.....o_O

2Scoops

imported_guy wrote: »

if you study more/spend more time reading books, you learn more in school/college, putting cannula in at 3am/pm wont make you better but doing it more oftem / repition will make you better, im sure you will agree.

im also guessing you have never crammed a week before an exam either.....o_O

You don't need 80 hours a week of tramping around the wards and mind-numbing paperwork to get educated. A normal shift is more than sufficient and the 'cramming' analogy is entirely irrelevant. 80 hours a week won't make you better at stuff than the 50-hour a week guy, just more tired and snippy. I don't know a single doctor who would disagree with that.

I just can't take you seriously since you seem not to know what the job involves...

Insert condescending 50 Cent picture here: :cool:

RobFowl

imported_guy wrote: »

thats great i dont mind at all, i still fail to see how history is a better reason than education

It isn't it was that way simply because the generation of doctors before had done it and they espected you to do the same

why did you come in for more than 65 hours then? im sure it has atleast something to do with education

Basicalyl because you had to, 1 for patient care, 2 because if you didn't you would not get another job (Junior docs work on 6 month contracts)


thats true, but you wont always get an internship in a busy hospital

No


what hospitals have EWTD (in ireland)?? source?

None are fullt compliant

umm... you dont do an internship until you graduate, im sure youre thinking of clinical rotations, something entirely different.

Nope simple depends on what year you graduated form college

im also guessing you have never crammed a week before an exam either.....o_O
Guessed wrong

Sory about the format haven't worked out how to multiquote
FTR am qualified about as long as DrZ

imported_guy

2Scoops wrote: »

You don't need 80 hours a week of tramping around the wards and mind-numbing paperwork to get educated. A normal shift is more than sufficient and the 'cramming' analogy is entirely irrelevant. 80 hours a week won't make you better at stuff than the 50-hour a week guy, just more tired and snippy. I don't know a single doctor who would disagree with that.

I just can't take you seriously since you seem not to know what the job involves...

Insert condescending 50 Cent picture here: :cool:

lets stay on topic then, interns wont be doing 40-50 hours a week anytime soon

and definition of an intern

intern


• noun /intern/ (also interne) [SIZE=-1]chiefly N. Amer.[/SIZE] 1 a recent medical graduate receiving supervised training in a hospital and acting as an assistant physician or surgeon. 2 a student or trainee who does a job to gain work experience or for a qualification.
• verb 1 /intern/ confine as a prisoner. 2 /intern/ [SIZE=-1]chiefly N. Amer.[/SIZE] serve as an intern.
[SIZE=-1]— DERIVATIVES[/SIZE] internment [SIZE=-1]noun[/SIZE] internship [SIZE=-1]noun[/SIZE].
[SIZE=-1]— ORIGIN[/SIZE] from Latin internus ‘inward, internal’.


key "receiving supervised training"


more hours = more training, you can not argue against it, sure its repetitive, mind numbingly boring, alot of paper work etc, but hey, you knew that when you signed up

drzhivago

imported_guy wrote: »

lets stay on topic then, interns wont be doing 40-50 hours a week anytime soon

I guess you havent been in the High court then where the HSE are explaining which hospitals interns are working less than 50 hours per week

imported_guy wrote: »

and definition of an intern

intern


• noun /intern/ (also interne) [SIZE=-1]chiefly N. Amer.[/SIZE] 1 a recent medical graduate receiving supervised training in a hospital and acting as an assistant physician or surgeon. 2 a student or trainee who does a job to gain work experience or for a qualification.
• verb 1 /intern/ confine as a prisoner. 2 /intern/ [SIZE=-1]chiefly N. Amer.[/SIZE] serve as an intern.
[SIZE=-1]— DERIVATIVES[/SIZE] internment [SIZE=-1]noun[/SIZE] internship [SIZE=-1]noun[/SIZE].
[SIZE=-1]— ORIGIN[/SIZE] from Latin internus ‘inward, internal’.

key "receiving supervised training"

more hours = more training, you can not argue against it, sure its repetitive, mind numbingly boring, alot of paper work etc, but hey, you knew that when you signed up

Again here you demonstrate a lack of understanding of what happens in a hospital and what doctors need to get trained to do

It does not take a lot of training to put in IV lines yet that is the majority of what interns do at night in hospitals as well as rechart medications which could be done during teh day and not as an "emergency at night"

Longer hours on site does not mean more training

Being on site does not mean "supervision"

I now work in the US, I see what supervision is over here and I never had any such supervision in ireland to the same degree

When you are on wards on your ow at night you are not an assistant to anyone

And finally most did not know what they signed up for which is why a study in 2002 by the IMO showed that 42% of NCHDS would not choose medicine again as a career

drzhivago

imported_guy wrote: »

thats great i dont mind at all, i still fail to see how history is a better reason than education

Because we were in hospitals long hours because it was cheap, because work had beens structured that way and not because "TRAINING" had been structured that way

imported_guy wrote: »

why did you come in for more than 65 hours then? im sure it has atleast something to do with education

imported_guy wrote: »

thats great i dont mind at all, i still fail to see how history is a better reason than education

No it had nothing to do with education, we would have been fired had we not done so, Catch 22

imported_guy wrote: »

thats true, but you wont always get an internship in a busy hospital

You dont do the most work in the biggest hospital, I said busy hospital.

In the smaller hospitals you do more doctor-medical work than administration stuff like happens in bigger hospitals

You learn more medicine in the smaller places as an Intern

imported_guy wrote: »

what hospitals have EWTD (in ireland)?? source?

Tallaght
cork

how many more do you want
what is your beef here, what is your source for any of your comments

imported_guy wrote: »

umm... you dont do an internship until you graduate, im sure youre thinking of clinical rotations, something entirely different.

No I wasnt, the structure of the Intern year is dramatically changing from 6month MED/SURG to choice of 3 4 month modules with possible removal of night time work as it is not educational for interns, so the thrust of my post was it will depend in next few years which University you graduate from which way your internship will work in future and some will be involved in GP as an intern and some wont

imported_guy wrote: »

if you study more/spend more time reading books, you learn more in school/college, putting cannula in at 3am/pm wont make you better but doing it more oftem / repition will make you better, im sure you will agree.

But why, a number of reports in last few year
Hanly 1
Hanly 2
Buttimer
have all stressed that tasks such as this should not be done by doctors but by nurses or cannulation teams as you need doctors for doctoring, as hours are reduced and less medical bodies around it makes no sense doing this sort of task when there are tasks that need doctors to do them getting left undone

imported_guy

drzhivago wrote: »

Because we were in hospitals long hours because it was cheap, because work had beens structured that way and not because "TRAINING" had been structured that way

imported_guy wrote: »

why did you come in for more than 65 hours then? im sure it has atleast something to do with education
No it had nothing to do with education, we would have been fired had we not done so, Catch 22




You dont do the most work in the biggest hospital, I said busy hospital.

In the smaller hospitals you do more doctor-medical work than administration stuff like happens in bigger hospitals

You learn more medicine in the smaller places as an Intern



Tallaght
cork

how many more do you want
what is your beef here, what is your source for any of your comments



No I wasnt, the structure of the Intern year is dramatically changing from 6month MED/SURG to choice of 3 4 month modules with possible removal of night time work as it is not educational for interns, so the thrust of my post was it will depend in next few years which University you graduate from which way your internship will work in future and some will be involved in GP as an intern and some wont




But why, a number of reports in last few year
Hanly 1
Hanly 2
Buttimer
have all stressed that tasks such as this should not be done by doctors but by nurses or cannulation teams as you need doctors for doctoring, as hours are reduced and less medical bodies around it makes no sense doing this sort of task when there are tasks that need doctors to do them getting left undone

my dad is a doctor in bons cork, i actully know doctors in CUH, CUH does not have EWTD, i dont know about tallaght but i would ask for a proper source. (again), i fail to see why you wont admit, internship is supposed to be about education even after i posted the oxford definition, i dont care if you or other interns are getting screwed over, im just telling the OP the facts, internship is supposed to be about education, same with residency, (how come in america most I/FMGs are on J-1s? which is a student/training/related visa), i dont have any beef with you i just want to tell the OP the facts, there is no EWTD going around here, and it will not happen for a long time. (PS check the bold, i said busy as well, atleast READ my effing comments before attacking me like a mongrel)

drzhivago

my dad is a doctor in bons cork, i actully know doctors in CUH, CUH does not have EWTD, i dont know about tallaght but i would ask for a proper source. (again), i fail to see why you wont admit, internship is supposed to be about education even after i posted the oxford definition, i dont care if you or other interns are getting screwed over, im just telling the OP the facts, internship is supposed to be about education, same with residency, (how come in america most I/FMGs are on J-1s? which is a student/training/related visa), i dont have any beef with you i just want to tell the OP the facts, there is no EWTD going around here, and it will not happen for a long time.[/QUOTE]

So your dad is a doctor you get some information from him and pass it on as if you know everything

you say you dont care whether I or other Interns get screwed over, I am far from being an intern which displays more lack of knowledge on your part

Definitions about Interns/internships from oxford dictionary have little to do with Law in Ireland, contracts for Interns and how interns actually work. It is a job primarily

You are not telling the OP the facts, you are giving facts as you understand them or as you would like them to be

I get my information from IMO in regular bulletins

We are talking about Ireland and Interns so dont know why you are bringing American Visas into it, that is particularly irrelevant to the work hours of interns here

So for your own facts there are numbers of hospitals where there is EWTD compliance for interns GAlway another example though not compliant for SHO , reg etc

You need to confine yourself a little more to facts particularly as you dont work in the area and are just relying on comments from family members for your knowledge

imported_guy

your taking this way off topic, and going way too personal, as far as i know you dont even live in ireland, i actully dont even live with my parents, so think before you ink, im not getting my info from my dad, i know people on clinical rotations in CUH that i went to school with etc, same with bons and several others, i was just explaning what the word "intern" means when talking about medical educational visas, apparently you have the attention span of a hamster, and dont read my replys fully, so i will not be replying to any of your comments anymore

imorted_guy stepping out, reverese robo walk




PS my 400th post woohoo

Prime Mover

You need to work on your manners. You consistently try to answer questions that you don't really know the answer to, and this is the second thread I've seen where you are picking a fight with one of the most helpful and knowledgeable members.

candlegrease

Imported guy is either a troll or a simpleton.

lonestargirl

An article from today's Irish Times.

Is anyone who's worked in the health service surprised by this? I know I'm not, over 1/2 my husband's class (interns July 08 - 09) have left Ireland. Most only intended to go for a year but are not planning on coming back now.

locum-motion

imported_guy wrote: »

your taking this way off topic, and going way too personal, as far as i know you dont even live in ireland, i actully dont even live with my parents, so think before you ink, im not getting my info from my dad, i know people on clinical rotations in CUH that i went to school with etc, same with bons and several others, i was just explaning what the word "intern" means when talking about medical educational visas, apparently you have the attention span of a hamster, and dont read my replys fully, so i will not be replying to any of your comments anymore

imorted_guy stepping out, reverese robo walk


PS my 400th post woohoo

Imported guy,
This post has been reported by another user, as being insulting and unhelpful. Also, as another user has said, you're answering when you don't know the answers, and picking fights.
Stop. Now.
Or get a ban. Your choice.

lonestargirl

I think this quote from the Irish Times article really sums it all up.


“I’m going to be earning less in Australia, but it’s more the atmosphere and having a system that is adequately staffed and resourced and where you are not made to feel you are expected to compress all of your work into a shorter timeframe,” he says.


I worked in a small, specialised allied health care profession. Seven people from my hospital have left Ireland in the last year, 3 to Oz, 1 to UK, 1 to NZ, 1 to Sweden and me to the US. Our hospital has good management and is a considered a nice place to work. What got everybody in the end was the frustration caused by the system. Not enough staff, not enough equipment and we felt we couldn't give our best to the patients because of the lack of resources. Also, staff are not being replaced and the more people that leave the more stress and strain placed on those left behind.

sillymoo

That Irish Times article is very interesting. Tbh out of the people I know in final med at the moment, I dont know any who want to stay in Ireland. I have been trying to decide the past while if I should do my USMLE steps, that article has made me think about trying to do well in them and try and get matched, instead of doing intern year here.

sam34

imported_guy wrote: »

your going way too personal

see below for an example of the pot calling the kettle black::rolleyes:

imported_guy wrote: »

apparently you have the attention span of a hamster

imported_guy wrote: »

atleast READ my effing comments before attacking me like a mongrel)

imported_guy, we have a fairly relaxed attitude to moderating on this forum, as compared to other fora.

however, we do not tolerate these sorts of juvenile personal insults.

we rarely ban, but if you persist with this crap, you will leave us with no option.

drzhivago has been around this forum, and teh world of medicine, a lot longer than you, and knows what he is talking about, he has firsthand experience.

you do not.

you often post inaccurate/misleading information, which has to be corrected by others.

in response to the post you reported, there is no issue, we often give moderation warnings in-thread.

drzhivago

sillymoo wrote: »

That Irish Times article is very interesting. Tbh out of the people I know in final med at the moment, I dont know any who want to stay in Ireland. I have been trying to decide the past while if I should do my USMLE steps, that article has made me think about trying to do well in them and try and get matched, instead of doing intern year here.

Even if not the most satisfactory year it makes more sense to do it and try and match for the year after if you want to come back afterwards

Most North Americans match and dont do intern year here, one or two have decided in later life to come back here and have had technical difficulties with medical council for not doing intern year

drzhivago

lonestargirl wrote: »

An article from today's Irish Times.

Is anyone who's worked in the health service surprised by this? I know I'm not, over 1/2 my husband's class (interns July 08 - 09) have left Ireland. Most only intended to go for a year but are not planning on coming back now.

Similar articles written around 1999/2000 when there were contract upheavals about getting overtime for the first time.

A lot of people left then and have still not come back

It would be interesting of one of the journos got on to Medical Council in UK/Australia/New zealand to see how many irish registered new in those jurisdictions in last 15 years and what the trends are

If lots of people are leaving and there is a shortage the answer is not to double the numbers in medical school to allow 3 times as many leave the country

We need to sort out some of the structural problems to encourage people to stay such as the one THE OP mentioned here, working hours

drzhivago

Thanks to mods and others who defended me here

People asking a question they dont know the answer to deserve to at least get steered in the right direction

And Fowl, those were interesting times as final meds and interns

drzhivago

lonestargirl wrote: »

An article from today's Irish Times.

Is anyone who's worked in the health service surprised by this? I know I'm not, over 1/2 my husband's class (interns July 08 - 09) have left Ireland. Most only intended to go for a year but are not planning on coming back now.

For interest sake do you know where they went and what they went to do

Sometime numbers go places because that career path is not available in Ireland

imported_guy

drzhivago wrote: »

For interest sake do you know where they went and what they went to do

Sometime numbers go places because that career path is not available in Ireland

i dont really appreciate the threats the mods have put out, and i still think these kind of questions steer the tread away from topic, the OP's question was are the intern hours going to be reduced, since we have so many educated doctors here, why dont you post an answer to his question? (like i did, and presented my argument well, and people just hopped on to the drzhivago bandwagon because he is more experienced he is right and i am wrong)

lonestargirl

drzhivago wrote: »

For interest sake do you know where they went and what they went to do

Sometime numbers go places because that career path is not available in Ireland

For those who went to Oz/NZ most were totally frustrated by their intern year and simply wanted to go away for a year. But now many of them are considering not coming back, they are in contact with their friends in Ireland and have seen first hand the advantages of working in the OZ system. Those who went to the US have obviously matched into residency programs and intend to stay here for 6-7 years at least, from my recollection a couple are doing gen surg and at least one doing paeds.

From my point of view I can only say why we left Ireland. It was purely down to the the training system: the year-to-year uncertainty in job position; the constant moving around the country; the way they goalposts are continually shifting (e.g. BST is suddenly 3 years instead of 2). We went to Houston and although my hubbie rotates hospital every month they are all within the Texas Medical Centre (47 not-for-profit medical institutions). Doing surgery training in Ireland would have entailed roatations where he could have been at the other end of the country from me.

Dr Galen

imported_guy wrote: »

i dont really appreciate the threats the mods have put out,

if you have an issue with the Moderation of this forum, this thread is not the place to discuss it. You are more than welcome to create a helpdesk thread and the discussion can continue there, and be adjudicated on by the site admins.

please, no more discussion on moderation on this thread

cheers

MM

Narkius Maximus

imported_guy wrote: »

i dont really appreciate the threats the mods have put out, and i still think these kind of questions steer the tread away from topic, the OP's question was are the intern hours going to be reduced, since we have so many educated doctors here, why dont you post an answer to his question? (like i did, and presented my argument well, and people just hopped on to the drzhivago bandwagon because he is more experienced he is right and i am wrong)

One of my pet hates is ignorance-you, sir, are ignorant, puerile, naive and other childish adjectives! There is a simple rule in medicine, if you don't know something ask someone who does. Your information is second hand at best. Don't comment on that which you have very little understanding of! You are not a doctor, nor a medical student as far as I can see from other comments you have posted.

Now run along like a good little boy, study real hard, get into medicine, work for a couple of years and then comment. Little children should be seen and not heard!