Can't accept being "average"

LegacyUser

Well here I am again with my latest moan. I finished college two years ago with a 2.2 in Software Development. I was disappointed with my grade but I managed to get a job eventually (not a great one but it was OK at the start). I left it because of overwork and was on the dole for six months but I recently started a new job which is temporary until I don't know how long.

It's not an IT job though so I have been applying for jobs since. I was called for an interview recently and I thought I stood a good chance of getting the job. They asked me to do a little coding exam and even though I knew in advance I would have to do it I was still apprehensive as I am only an average programmer (for people not working in IT reading this I apologise, you don't need to understand, it's beside the point anyway).

Anyway I did the test and thought I had got it right but I made a mistake which was pointed out to me after. It was a trick but that's fair enough, that's the whole point of these things.

I should have spotted it but I didn't. I don't think I will get the job as a result and I have been "in my head" about it since.

The thing that bugs me is that it is something I should have known, it was inexcusable. I was describing it to a friend of mine and he managed to spot it straight away and get this; he doesn't even work in IT, he dropped out of my course and hasn't touched a computer in years! What does that say about me? (having said that, he was a brilliant programmer in college;far better than me).

I can't accept being "only OK". I've been pulling out all the stops to make myself "better";I'm doing a Masters part-time, I put a few websites together in my spare time, I scour the 'net whenever I can for jobs. I haven't had a night out in over a year. It's tough but only 'cause I make it tough. I know I should just accept my limitations but I can't. I lay awake at night thinking of it and I wake early in the morning with the same thoughts in my head. I should be grateful I know, I have a job (even if it is only temporary), I don't have a mortgage, I am healthy but still, I feel dissatisfied with myself.

I feel I should be doing better, but I have to accept myself for what I am.

leahcim

You are very tough on yourself.

From reading your post you come across as someone is is far from average.
For one thing you have an honors degree.
How many people started college with you and didn't finish, I bet there is quiet a few (your friend being one).
How many people have the ambition and work ethic to take it upon themselves to do a Masters part-time (I'd say very few).

You say your friend spotted the trick in the programming test given to you in the interview.
That reminds me of those people who phone into radio station quiz shows and do crap and then say "it seems so easy when you are listening to someone else doing it and answering the questions".
Your friend had no pressure when looking at the programing test where as you did.

Besides the idea of categorising people as average or whatever is a very simplistic way to look at life.

Most people have things that they are fantastic at and other things they are poor at. I'd say the people we believe are above average have plenty things they are poor at we just don't know about it.

Try to stop being down on yourself and start to see yourself as the success you are.

kjl

Why don't you do the mcsd or suncert, this would give you a leg up on the software development industry. You can do them for free though fas I think.

Truth be told, you are average, less then average to be honest, sure, maybe the above poster thinks you are not, but he doesn't work in the field. You need to do something to spice up your CV I work in the software development industry and would if someone presented in front of me, who doesnt look good on paper and didn't get the trick in the coding exam I would say next. But if you had the sun cert or the mcsd I would reconsider

LegacyUser

kjl wrote: »

Why don't you do the mcsd or suncert, this would give you a leg up on the software development industry. You can do them for free though fas I think.

I am under enough pressure with the Masters thanks very much.

kjl wrote: »

Truth be told, you are average, less then average to be honest,

Seems a bit presumptuous to come to that conclusion based on what little information I have given you. I accept that I am not that great though. I actually feel if I was to be offered the job by some miracle I should really turn it down as it wouldn't be fair on the employer to take it when I am plainly not good enough. I know others would say "Hmph, I couldn't care less".
I can work stuff out, it just takes me a bit longer than others. I am frustrated by my own limitations, it gets me down. In programming you can't really teach yourself how to solve a problem, you either have it or you don't. I'm not saying I don't have it, I have worked out complicated problems in the past and I enjoy it most of the time but I can't do it under pressure.

kjl wrote: »

You need to do something to spice up your CV

I am doing that. It ain't easy while you are working though.

leahcim

maybe the above poster thinks you are not, but he doesn't work in the field

That is a little bit of a presumption, I have 13 years software engineering experience currently specializing in c#.

While doing sun and ms certifications are all well and good many employers don't really care, they might help get you an interview but so does having a masters. I have interviewed software developers in the past who had glowing CV's with all kinds of qualifications and certifications and they just didn't cut it in practice (a good memory can go along way to getting you a degree or certification, doesn't mean you can actually use the technology). The bottom line anything you have on your CV that shows you have ambition and are willing to push yourself will help getting that first interview.

The only thing we know about to OP is that he didn't spot a trick question on a programming test, that can happen to anyone. For you to assume he is below average because of that is pretty harsh.

Elba101

op it seems you're being far too hard on yourself. If you don't think your great at what you do, that's what they'll pick up on in an interview. If you don't 'sell yourself' at an interview, no one else will.

You're obviously a determined\ambitous person but it's lost behind your own acceptance of you being 'average'. Stop thinking in those terms because that's how you're putting yourself across.

LegacyUser

I just don't like the idea of being "only OK" and others who went through the same course as me being able to do things I am not able to do. In my last job I made a pretty bad mistake which caused a bit of grief for my boss. I didn't really want to stay in the job after that I was so embarrassed. I'm sure I did lots of other good things but I always tend to focus on my mistakes or "slowness". If I do something wrong or don't do it well enough, quickly or efficiently enough I dwell on it for ages after. "Why didn't I know that?", "S**t, I should have spotted that sooner", that kind of thing.
I brood over it, take it to heart. If I could just find my own level I'd be fine. I don't want to be perfect, just good enough for myself to live with.

sunnyside

Danny_99 wrote: »

I haven't had a night out in over a year.

I'm confused. What does this have to with the rest of your post which is about IT jobs? Is this a separate issue which is bothering you?

Danny_99 wrote: »

I just don't like the idea of being "only OK" and others who went through the same course as me being able to do things I am not able to do. In my last job I made a pretty bad mistake which caused a bit of grief for my boss. I didn't really want to stay in the job after that I was so embarrassed. I'm sure I did lots of other good things but I always tend to focus on my mistakes .

Workplace mistakes tend to be forgotten very quickly. Look at the ridiculous mistakes our public representatives make on an almost daily basis yet they manage to hold their heads high.

It looks like you are defining your self worth by a job which you don't seem entirely comfortable with. Loads of people don't stick with what they did in college, perhaps you just haven't found your passion in life yet. A degree and masters will always look good on your CV whatever you choose to work at.

LegacyUser

I feel like I am in some what of a similar situation to you. In my case I finished my degree but I am constantly left with the feeling that I didn't really deserve it, in my final year project the other people in my group made me feel like I barely contributed anything when really I was trying my best.

I unlike you have not found a job in my field since I graduated last year and I feel so useless. I feel I have no skill/ talent, like I'm qualified for nothing.

I shouldn't be posting really to be honest cos I don't have much advice. I know I feel totally useless and that other people from my course have moved on and some have gotten jobs or moved countries but I'm still here and well... feeling sorry for myself.

I think my problem is self pity and confidence, I believe really that if I was a bit more positive and didn't think about everything or WHAT PEOPLE THINK OF ME(which is the biggest problem) so much I would be okay.

I think maybe you have similar issues to me, and maybe if you try to stop being self conscious and forget about your course and other people in your field.

I think maybe what the above poster said about you being less than average in your field is a perfect example of what you probably think people in your field say about you....and quite frankly ..the comment really annoyed me because perhaps it sorta confirms things in your head for you...maybe? (If I had been you and read that, id be thinking...god that sounds like that guy in my class and he is right etc etc etc) ....but it's NOT TRUE ..it's all about confidence.

I Know I'm rambling but all I want to say is ignore everyone, move on from the work incident forget about it, cos I bet everyone else has. study study study and f*ck anyone who ever says you're not good enough.

Haven't read any of the replies, but I have to say, you are taking your mistakes the wrong way.


I'd say I'm somewhat similar to yourself, in the way that, if you gave me an exam with 100 things to do on a computer, and I got 99%, i'd be overly pissed off at myself for getting that 1% wrong.

However, I'd learn from that mistake and move on. You have to do the same.


As they say;

The man who never made a mistake, never made anything

LegacyUser

sunnyside wrote: »

I'm confused. What does this have to with the rest of your post which is about IT jobs? Is this a separate issue which is bothering you?

It's kind of the same. I sacrificed a lot to get my degree 'cause I wanted to give it everything. But now it seems I had to sacrifice a lot for a small reward. That's my own fault of course, I am only as good as I can be.

sunnyside wrote: »

It looks like you are defining your self worth by a job which you don't seem entirely comfortable with.

I'm comfortable with my chosen career, I'm just not comfortable with being useless. I can't accept it, I won't accept it.

kjl

leahcim wrote: »

That is a little bit of a presumption, I have 13 years software engineering experience currently specializing in c#.

Right so you work in an asp.net house, probably doing web apps. Don't cod yourself you are not as good as you think you are either. Come back when you are actually doing programming and not just web apps. ]
Fact is a 2.2 is not a good degree and it wont get him into a good masters.

If he did the sun cert which only has a 30% pass rate I would rate that higher then any bs part time masters.

Also it would give him training which would make him not miss silly mistakes in interviews

@OP I gave you some genuine advice, from my perspective you are nothing special. You need to learn how to program, that's why you failed the interview because you are not as good as other candidates, make yourself

BrokenArrows

Danny_99 wrote: »

Well here I am again with my latest moan. I finished college two years ago with a 2.2 in Software Development. I was disappointed with my grade but I managed to get a job eventually (not a great one but it was OK at the start). I left it because of overwork and was on the dole for six months but I recently started a new job which is temporary until I don't know how long.

It's not an IT job though so I have been applying for jobs since. I was called for an interview recently and I thought I stood a good chance of getting the job. They asked me to do a little coding exam and even though I knew in advance I would have to do it I was still apprehensive as I am only an average programmer (for people not working in IT reading this I apologise, you don't need to understand, it's beside the point anyway).

Anyway I did the test and thought I had got it right but I made a mistake which was pointed out to me after. It was a trick but that's fair enough, that's the whole point of these things.

I should have spotted it but I didn't. I don't think I will get the job as a result and I have been "in my head" about it since.

The thing that bugs me is that it is something I should have known, it was inexcusable. I was describing it to a friend of mine and he managed to spot it straight away and get this; he doesn't even work in IT, he dropped out of my course and hasn't touched a computer in years! What does that say about me? (having said that, he was a brilliant programmer in college;far better than me).

I can't accept being "only OK". I've been pulling out all the stops to make myself "better";I'm doing a Masters part-time, I put a few websites together in my spare time, I scour the 'net whenever I can for jobs. I haven't had a night out in over a year. It's tough but only 'cause I make it tough. I know I should just accept my limitations but I can't. I lay awake at night thinking of it and I wake early in the morning with the same thoughts in my head. I should be grateful I know, I have a job (even if it is only temporary), I don't have a mortgage, I am healthy but still, I feel dissatisfied with myself.

I feel I should be doing better, but I have to accept myself for what I am.

From what i read as already said far from average.

Your striving to improve yourself. Studying for a masters part time.

As a fellow graduate of software development about 3 years ago. I can tell you if you asked me to write a hello world program in c i couldnt. Its very easy to forget these things if your not coding every day. I dont think the interviewers will take a small programming fault too seriously if you performed well elsewhere.

I work in IT but dont program. These days its hard because no matter how good you are most of the time there is someone better.
There are probably people who have been established programmers for years applying for your job.

Just keep trying and something will come up.

Terodil

kjl wrote: »

Right so you work in an asp.net house, probably doing web apps. Don't cod yourself you are not as good as you think you are either. Come back when you are actually doing programming and not just web apps.

How offensive, demeaning and useless.

In the current situation coding (programming) is but a tiny fraction of what developers do. Understanding customer needs (aka requirements) and architectural questions are much more important than that, especially given the trend for outsourcing of coding tasks to cheaper countries.

So what if the OP is developing web apps? If he elicits requirements properly, develops sound architecture, and is not quite as strong at coding, then so be it, he'll probs have better chances for a long-term employment than an A+ coder who will see his job outsourced to India before long.

TBH OP I don't really know what your problem is. You're above average in my view because you realise your shortcomings. All too many people are not aware of their weaknesses and are therefore all but immune to growth. Now you just need to put your energy into growing. You've already done the first step, find what exactly it is where your heart is, and put all energy into excelling at that. It's a chance, not a problem! Good luck!

fasty

There's nothing wrong with being average as long as you keep trying to improve yourself. When it comes to software development, you'll often have moments where you don't "get" something and someone else comes along, takes one look at it and spots the problem.

The vast majority of the world is average, that's part of what average is! There will always be someone better than you.

LegacyUser

OP you need to worry about yourself and only yourself, and just improve you!
worrying how you compare to others ALL of the time serves no purpose

you compare them in a favourable light always!, never their bad points so its an unrealistic viewpoint and only undermining you.

lenovoguy

Hi there

OP: I was in a similar predicament when I graduated. I got a 2:2, wasn't particularly thrilled, though glad I still came out with an honours degree.
Part of the problem was my final year project which accounted for 15 of my 60 ECTS in my final year (the only year that counts) and while everybody opted for web-apps or online booking systems, I went for a Word document parser/converter written in ANSI C, so I possibly bit off more than I could chew.

To refute Kjl's frankly condescending remarks, I got into the M.Sc Networks and Distributed systems masters in TCD after my undergrad, which is one of the toughest (2 years course content and 1 dissertation crammed into 11 months) and most widely respected CS masters in Ireland. I'm now working as a C++/C# developer for a very successful software company in Dublin city centre , so 2:2 graduates can go on to be very successful.

KJL is making several incorrect assertions and assumptions , to the point where he sounds like a troll - he hasn't stated the credentials or experience
which he feels allow him to be so presumptuous.

1. Coding makes up the entirety of the development process - wrong. It actually in reality constitutes but a small fraction. Requirements need to be established, followed by solid planning phase including the design of the software and the development lifecycle to use, followed by the implementation, testing and subsequent deployment of the software. As one poster said, if you're solid on a few of these, you should do well. Thinking about software dev purely in terms of coding will lead your project to failure, guaranteed.

2. C# is something to be look down one's nose at, or is less powerful than other languages. In the real world, languages like Java and C# save software shops a lot of time by taking care of a lot the low level internal plumbing in your program and allow you to get on with the task at hand.
You can't trust the opinion of others on programming languages, because they are satisfied with whatever they use, and it determines how they think about programs, and the problems they solve when writing them.

Kjl's kind of dogmatism is unfortunately quite widespread, I did a few interviews last winter when I was made redundant before getting my current job. A lot of employers seem determined to prove you're not as good as you think, trip you up and shoot you down however they can, rather than finding out what you can and cant do. Add to this the problem that most technologists are not linguists, and tend to explain questions in an unclear or idiomatic manner, which makes things even worse.

I found the pressure of some interviews hard, particularly coding questions - that feeling of being on the spot is a major put off for me, but I just forget they are there and focus on the problem, and remember its not the end of the world if I get it wrong. I'll either get the job or never have to see them again!

You also seem to assume that every problem you encounter when coding will have to be solved from scratch, which is not the case. You'll quickly pick up neat algorithms and data structures when maintaining your colleagues' source code which can be reused, and your employer would prefer that too. Duplication should be avoided at all costs

You sound like an honest, if overly self-critical person. The fact you know your own limitations should be a source of solace for yourself, and will be to any potential employer. A decent interviewer will not only interview you in a holistic manner, taking more than a crappy coding question into account but also othert thingssuch as your experience and past projects, but also favour you over someone who claims to know everything - unless they really do. It's ok to say "I don't know" "or I'm not familiar with that technology." The fact you have personal projects like myself shows a genuine enthusiasm for your given specialism, rather than just treating it as a way to pay the bills.

As for making mistakes, well, that's what bug trackers are for We're on the cusp of shipping a large (800,000+ lines of code) project now, with 140 bugs. It's a fact of software dev life my friend.

Try not to be so hard on yourself.

LegacyUser

OP, on a practical note, you may want to take a look at the Development forum here, if you haven't already. There's been several threads recently from folks discussing job hunting in IT qualifications, etc, which may be of interest;
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=25
I'd also strongly recommend you ignore kjl's input, unfortunately that kind of playground elitism does crop up sometimes in IT, but don't let it get to you.

Re addressing your thoughts, talking to you GP about a counsellor may be a good idea. Doesn't have to be a big deal, but talking for a while with someone who's detached and deals with this kind of thing professionally can help a great deal in giving you perspective on how to approach things.

LegacyUser

I'm well aware that IT is full of people like kjl. He/she knows a lot of stuff and likes to let people know. Anyway I don't want to get into an argument with him/her, I believe I DO know how to program, I'm just not as good as other people. I probably never will be but I have to try and find my niche.
I did an application for a previous interview which the employer said was very good, I didn't get the job but he praised what I did. I can do things but I need time to do it.
That frustrates me. It's like being a good hurler in training but then when you are put in a competitive match you are found out.
I suppose I should console myself that there are loads of other people scared stiff of computers and haven't got the ability to make it as far as I have. Doesn't bother them I'm sure.

leahcim

In response to kjl

Right so you work in an asp.net house

Wrong, I never created an asp.net app in my life

Probably doing web apps

Wrong, I've never worked with web apps either

Don't cod yourself you are not as good as you think you are either

Never said I was good or bad, I was just pointing out that you were wrong when you said "he doesn't work in the field" referring to my post.

Come back when you are actually doing programming and not just web apps.

I'm back, of course I never had to go as I never worked in web apps.

BTW what is exactly your problem with web apps. There are plenty of talented programmers working in web apps.

May I suggest you read a little bit on .net (you'll find there is a fair bit more to it than asp.net) before making a fool of yourself again.

Danny_99 dont worry about the likes of kjl knocking you and the industry is definitely not full of people like that, there's very few thank god.

You seriously need to work on your self confidence as other posters have pointed out, interviewers will pick up on it immediately.

BumbleB

In the big picture of life none of this stuff matters.Of course You can get degrees earn a lot of money ,you can buy yourself a big car have a nice house and a hot girlfriend but will it make you happy ?. Learn to accept yourself the way you are find something you excel at and do that ,that will help you to accept the other things where you fall below par it could be playing guitar or soccer .

My brothers ex boss has an armful of degrees but no personality he's unemployed at the moment . My brother has only a degree and a masters ,he's an excellent networker he has a shed load of contacts ,he was laid off last month ,2 weeks later had a job as a lecturer in an english Uni .

dny123456

Danny_99 wrote: »

I'm well aware that IT is full of people like kjl. He/she knows a lot of stuff and likes to let people know. Anyway I don't want to get into an argument with him/her, I believe I DO know how to program, I'm just not as good as other people. I probably never will be but I have to try and find my niche.
I did an application for a previous interview which the employer said was very good, I didn't get the job but he praised what I did. I can do things but I need time to do it.
That frustrates me. It's like being a good hurler in training but then when you are put in a competitive match you are found out.
I suppose I should console myself that there are loads of other people scared stiff of computers and haven't got the ability to make it as far as I have. Doesn't bother them I'm sure.

Danny, don't beat yourself up. Being a natural programmer is not the be all and end all of s/w development. In fact, in some ways, I think it is actually an advantage to not be so good at programming in a software development career. You will probably find yourself drifting into management much more readily than some others. Personally I have always being quite good at logic and figuring new programming languages and coding challenges out, however I think that has actually held me back. As while I keep the head down and focus purely on the programming, I've neglected the other parts of my career, which I'm quickly realising are just as (if not more) important. People skills. Don't be disheartened, software development is not all about logic.

P.S. On the interview question - don't be worried about getting little questions like that wrong in an interview, especially little trick questions. A person who relies on questions like that, in my opinion, is an incompetent interviewer. Whenever I interview people, I always try to talk the interviewee through various stages of a puzzle and see their approach to solving the problem, rather than whether they are lucky enough to guess the right answer. And anyway, working as part of a team, it is not always necessary or possible to be the strongest programmer. In many cases they will not be looking for propeller heads, sometimes a potentially enthusiastic conscientious colleague is much more appealing.

LegacyUser

leahcim wrote: »

You seriously need to work on your self confidence as other posters have pointed out, interviewers will pick up on it immediately.

You're right there. I've been that way all my life and never addressed it. Although I am able to mask it in an interview strangely enough. I also don't feel nervous speaking in front of a crowd of people.
I suppose I take things to heart too much. After that interview I lay awake three nights in a row going over that coding thing in my head. Crazy carry-on I know. I have to accept I am not a logical, algorithm-cracking, puzzle-solving wizard but I have some level of ability and I have to be happy with that.

LegacyUser

Danny_99 wrote: »

... I have to accept I am not a logical, algorithm-cracking, puzzle-solving wizard but I have some level of ability and I have to be happy with that.

That's one option alright. But I'd still recommend my suggestion of talking to a counsellor as a possible alternative. Might result in broadening your options re what you do and don't need to accept and what you do and don't have to do. Or it might not. You don't have much to lose though, do you? It's not likely to make things worse.

I'm a professional software developer, and have been for several years. I make mistakes, coding based and otherwise, regularly. I ship software with bugs in it, I commit code that breaks builds, I write code that produces bizarre and unpredictable results, I even wrote some low-level code once that crashed an entire PC as soon as it was run. Most of the time I find those mistakes before they get too far down range. Sometimes my colleagues or my boss do. Sometimes the testers do. They're usually no big deal and quickly fixed. And occasionally they are a bigger deal and it's the customers, partners or CEOs that I end up making mistakes in front of.

I don't know any engineer who hasn't and doesn't. Software development, especially the programming part, has a large dose of trial and error involved, and can be very unpredictable. Mistakes happen all the time, both in coding on the spot and in deploying products, and they don't always get caught in time to prevent folks from seeing them. I've never come across a piece of software that doesn't have bugs in it, from vast intricate constructions like Windows or Linux, down to some little applet that just crashed in my browser. That's simply the nature of the work.

So just because you tripped over some smart-ass trick question or other in an interview doesn't have much reflection on your overall suitability as a developer. You response to that trip-up, and your attitude to it, might do. But the good news is that you can change that, just as you can change and improve your knowledge of programming. You took steps to get better at IT - you did a degree in it, you've worked at it in a job, you've built websites and apps, and so on. Frankly you've done more than a lot of folks when it comes to self-improvement. Likewise, you can take steps to get better at handling setbacks, mistakes and bumps in the road, so to speak. You could try self-help books, or some counselling, or just work through it yourself if you reckon you can manage it. Either way, it is something you can work on. It doesn't have to stay the way it is now, anymore than your programming ability has stayed the way it was five years ago.

InReality

Hi Op

I've had a similar feeling to you for a lot of my time in IT ( about 10 years now, mostly development).

I think there are 3 sides to it.

One is the nature of IT work. I think you're able to compare yourself to others in IT much more so than with other jobs.
If you work in a team you can say well i'm better than john at coding , but mary and pat are way ahead of me.
I don't think its as clear cut in other fields , although I could be wrong.
What I have tried to do is remind myself that being a **** hot coder is not the be-all and end all of my life . In fact if you think about it there are far more cool things to be


Second thing is being too critical of yourself. Thats a personal thing I have too , and something you can work on in different ways. For example I get really annoyed with myself if I forget a "simple" piece of code , whereas I'm not so hard on myself if I can't do something I think its "complex".
Just remember that these ideas are not something thats "set for life".

Third thing is the idea of being "average". I find this pretty hard myself too. Logically I know I am "average" in that I have about average amounts of money , friends , social skills etc. But I would like to come up with some new idea that would say help world hunger or something.
I'm still trying to square that circle , but I think i do care less about that now as I get a bit older ( more realistic about world in general maybe ).

anyhow hope some of the replies helped you a bit.

LegacyUser

Hi Danny
as someone else previously wrote :

>>You will probably find yourself drifting into management much more readily than some others.

On reading your first post I remember feeling similar when I left college, I too wanted to be programmer Elite.

What strikes me (in your first post especially) is how well you articulated your problem , identified a correction you could make (in the exam) and also , most importantly, your desire to improve yourself and your coding.

I really think you should be looking for jobs above entry level coding, you seem (imho) to be able to grasp the birds eye view of a programming task and perhaps you should look at your people skills (I see this in your articualtion) and see yourself as more of a manager of programmers , in a nutshell you can see and understand what needs to be done, and you have the technical ability to liase with and get the most from your programmers.

I hope this helps you to realise your strengths , and you really do have some with a degree in programming! . And that beating yourself up is but a waste of time.

I think everyone here in IT would say that we need more managers capable of understanding the technical issue's and their effects on the project.

yes, there will be experience required and you will not jump straight into this type of role, but put yourself anywhere near prorammers and managers and they'll see what you have.

You rock,go get 'em

Teh-HaX0R