Cheating?

Peter B

Interested to know peoples ideas of cheating in rugby. Obviously this is in the wake of the Thierry Henry handball incident knocking Ireland out of the soccer world cup finals in South Africa.

Rugby is obviously big commercial business but in my opinion we should stamp out blatant cheating.

There are certain incidents which I have seen on a rugby pitch which I would say are bang out of order. I have listed some incidents below and given my opinion:-

Hand of Back vs Munster:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQlJ8K7XjQc

I thought this was bad form and bad for the game of rugby as a whole. He purposely cheated when the ball wasn't even in play yet. This in my opinion is bad sportsmanship. Back should have received a ban from rugby. I remember people on here saying it was cheating to win a game but I think it was bang out of order.

Alan Quinlan Munster vs Ulster

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eK235v9M7vo

Just like the hand of Back incident I think this deserved a ban or at least a red card. We cannot have junior players copying this sort of antics. Complete bad form.

Alan Quinlan Munster vs Toulouse

First half of this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPPtc-tgJxc

First incident brought up is fine, should have been picked up by the referee but otherwise fair enough.

Second incident: I would hate to see rugby players start faking injuries like football players. Again deserved a long ban for this.

Third incident: Took a dive to win a penalty. Should be a ban after the match but if picked up by the ref should have seen straight red. I think on these diving / being held back incidents if a player exaggerates the incident at all, even by waving their hands in the air the penalty should go against them. Even if they were originally in the right for exaggerating the incident the penalty should be reversed (at least).

Peter Stringer (Faking injury) vs Leinster.
Could not get a youtube clip on this but when I saw it live I was shocked. He used his size to try convince to the ref that he had been injured. I don't remember the incident exactly but I remember being shocked at it.

Harlequins vs Leinster - Bloodgate scandal

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ppwVqvTipU

Rightly so the Club received a fine and the player received a ban. Probably should have been banned from the HEC for 1 year minimum.


Gouging - Burger vs the Lions

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NYONDg4J_E

This obviously should have seen straight red. It was on purpose and I know Amobokke said before that this is part of the game but it isn't. It is so dangerous and in my opinion players caught doing this should receive a minimum 6 month - 1 year ban from the game.




I am a Munster supporter by the way. I used to be a big fan of Alan Quinlan but it was because of incidents like the above that I find it difficult to support him. I don't mind his going off his feet to win the ball, illegally making holes in the defensive to allow a player to drive through with the ball but this soccer style "faking it" really gets on my goat. He is such a brilliant player and in my opinion if he could have got rid of these silly antics could probably have become a more recognised all round player.

Some people say Richie McCaw is the biggest cheat in the game. In my opinion he is the worlds best rugby player (on full career form anyway). He may go off his feet to win ball's at the ruck but if he is in the wrong he should be penalised on the field. He plays to the referee as players should do. It is annoying when supporting teams playing against him that he always gets away with it but that's his skill. I have never seen Richie McCaw eye gouge or fake injuries as I have seen other players do. There is a massive difference between these kinds of cheating in my opinion.

We should try and eliminate the bad type of cheating in rugby. The last thing I want is rugby turning all soccer-esque!

Peter B

Are the video's showing up for other people?

Sundy

Nope no videos.


In my opinion the Henry cheating is similar to the type of cheating McCaw does well (all players do it to some extent though).

Its all about doing something deliberate that is against the rules/laws to benefit your team. A hand ball to set up a goal is no different to a deliberate hand in the ruck to prevent quick ball.

ScrubsfanChris

You have got your Youtube links embedded wrong.
it should be.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQlJ8K7XjQc[/youtube



Hand of Back vs Munster:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQlJ8K7XjQc

Morf

I feel far more angry at Austin Healy for his commentary that what Back did. Smug git.

danthefan

Peter Stringer (Faking injury) vs Leinster.
Could not get a youtube clip on this but when I saw it live I was shocked. He used his size to try convince to the ref that he had been injured. I don't remember the incident exactly but I remember being shocked at it.

Was right in front of me that one. Holwell even appealed the red card (and won) despite that game being his last for Leinster.

anonymous_joe

Holwell was a hero.

Cheating is rugby tbh. No sport I've ever watched or played is as cheaty as rugby. The most crucial thing in rugby is the breakdown, and that's a masterclass in cheating.

Teams that cheat best win most in rugby. Playing the ref is as important as playing the opposition.

I'm having a cynical night. ><

Happy Monday

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsXJyDHFKn0

Remember this? - no punishment.

toomevara

Matt Dawson was chatting on radio last night about the upcoming NZ match but as a by-the-by he was asked for his opinion on Henry-gate. He was disarmingly frank and candid in his answer and said that there were many times where he'd cheated in the heat of battle citing a number of examples.

Essentially rugby is a professional sport with huge stakes in many games, in terms of finances, professional careers etc...Making the Heineken Cup semi finals for example can make millions of quids worth of difference to a clubs balance sheet and a players wage packet. Its human nature. When there's so much on the line cheating and gamesmanship will follow as sure as night follows day.

Since the advent of professionalism, Rugby Union has been in denial about the reality behind the facade of gentlemanly bonhomie and fair play. The laws of the game are a cheats charter and they generally avail themselves fully of the opportunity! You cant stamp out cheating in rugby, all you can do is hope that the officials and the judicious use of technology keeps it to a minimum.

thomond2006

Thread title should be changed to "Openside Flankers".

Peter B

Happy Monday wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsXJyDHFKn0

Remember this? - no punishment.

I think it is generally accepted that that whole incident was a complete sham and both NZ players should have seen lengthy bans. Hopefully incidents like this will never happen again. That said, the Burger - Fitzgerald eye gouging incident was another complete farce.

anonymous_joe

toomevara wrote: »

Matt Dawson was chatting on radio last night about the upcoming NZ match but as a by-the-by he was asked for his opinion on Henry-gate. He was disarmingly frank and candid in his answer and said that there were many times where he'd cheated in the heat of battle citing a number of examples.

Essentially rugby is a professional sport with huge stakes in many games, in terms of finances, professional careers etc...Making the Heineken Cup semi finals for example can make millions of quids worth of difference to a clubs balance sheet and a players wage packet. Its human nature. When there's so much on the line cheating and gamesmanship will follow as sure as night follows day.

Since the advent of professionalism, Rugby Union has been in denial about the reality behind the facade of gentlemanly bonhomie and fair play. The laws of the game are a cheats charter and they generally avail themselves fully of the opportunity! You cant stamp out cheating in rugby, all you can do is hope that the officials and the judicious use of technology keeps it to a minimum.

If Leo Cullen had been taken off in the semi-final and Leinster had gone on to lose as a direct result, would Munster fans have complained?

toomevara

anonymous_joe wrote: »

If Leo Cullen had been taken off in the semi-final and Leinster had gone on to lose as a direct result, would Munster fans have complained?

In a word, no. Thats the nature of the beast that is professional sport.

Chucky the tree

"if you're not cheating, you're not trying"

OldJay

toomevara wrote: »

You cant stamp out cheating in rugby, all you can do is hope that the officials and the judicious use of technology keeps it to a minimum.

As long as the officials are capable (don't forget, 'reffing' from the stands or an armchair is easy) and more importantly as long as the respect for those officials on-field carries on, then all is not so glum. Sure, not everyone will be happy but then again nobody ever is, particularly in sport.

Sånn er livet.

Risteard

Cheating is part and parcel in professional sport especially rugby. It is the line between winning and losing in many games, for years McCaw was the best player in the world (might still be, but on form I'd prefer Brussow) Why? Because quite simply he was the best at cheating at the breakdown, he did it better than anyone else. I'm not saying every time he won a turnover it was due to cheating but he was quite adept at it.

There are differences though between a spur of the moment thing like back and a predetermined plan to cheat ala the Harlequins debacle. The latter is totally unacceptable. Every team will push the limits but when you set out an organised method to cheat, then it's a different story.

I don't begrudge Neil Back at all, he did what he did and he got away with it, fair play to him for that, I was pissed off at the time but I wouldn't complain if it was the other way round so I won't complain about it now.

What does piss me off however is as you stated above, the Quinlan incident. That pissed me off no end, I don't want to see rugby head towards the way of soccer where players are playacting. I don't remember the Stringer incident so I won't comment.

However, I don't class foul play such as Burger's gouging as cheating. That's just plain unneccessary thuggery. People can dress it up all they want but he was trying to purposefully damage another player in a very sensitive and important part of the body and he should have received at least a year considering it's so blatant.

It'll be impossible to stamp out cheating as quite honestly if nobody cheated then there would be no penalties.

toomevara

Justind wrote: »

and more importantly as long as the respect for those officials on-field carries on,

100% agree and this, of course, is rugby's great trump card. It is the jesus-nut which holds the whole game together...If this ever gets lost or diluted it's all over.

On a similar note, I've been dismayed at the amount of simulation creeping into the game of late. This is something which I thought completely alien to the culture of rugby. Went to see London Irish play Leeds two months ago. At the fringe of a rolling maul Andy Gomersall hits the deck like he's been shot, blames Nick Kennedy (Kennedy's just tried to pull him into the maul)...Kennedy promptly gets the bin...after the game Gomersall says it was a sham, but hey that's rugby....not bloody on....

myflipflops

Sundy wrote: »

In my opinion the Henry cheating is similar to the type of cheating McCaw does well (all players do it to some extent though).
.

I agree with this. At what point do we differntiate between what Neil Back did and players lying all over the ball to stop a certain try? Each is as blatant and intentional as the other, it's just that one looks really bad!

Nermal

I find feigning injury a more objectionable form of cheating than any other.

Munster Blogger

We'll if they stamp out cheating Richie McCaw is out of a job. Players will do everything to get an edge. Nothing wrong with it a good 6 or 7 is the one who cheats the most and get away with it. Ref is there to deal with it . Cheating off the field needs to be stopped. Bloodgate and all the uncontested scrums