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UPC 20mb Broadband - Packet Loss

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  • 19-11-2009 7:39pm
    #1
    nin2010
    Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭


    I have had 20mb cable broadband with UPC for the last 5 months or so and ever since I got it I have been getting periods of really bad packet loss. For the last few weeks this has gotten a lot worse as pretty much every day from 5pm to 12am I get this problem.

    I am sure this problem isn't anything at my end as I have tested everything possible. There's three pcs in the house, one wireless and two connected over powerline connections. The problem happens on all three pcs and I have also moved one of the pcs into the sitting room and connected it directly with a network cable to the router and the problem occurs. I have also connected that pc directly to the modem bypassing the router and the same problem happens.

    When connected through the router I can run a uninterrupted ping to the local router no problem but if I try ping a range of different websites it randomly drops packets and I get no replies. Sometimes this can be up to 30% - 40% packet loss which means that my main use for the internet(online gaming) is impossible.

    If I connect directly to the modem and run a ping to the default gateway I also get packet loss so I am guessing the problem is somewhere along the connection from my pc to UPCs router. I called UPC a number of times and I don't get any joy from them, they tell me that when they test the line it shows no errors and the logs also show no errors over the past 7 days. I'm not sure what I should do as I can't switch back to Eircom as I have only recently switched from them and I had even more problems with them than I do with UPC.

    Any advice on other tests I can do or what I should say to UPC to convince them they have to sort this problem out?

    EDIT: I'm located in Clareview in Limerick.


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    #2
    nin2010
    Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭nin2010


    Bump


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    #3
    nin2010
    Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭nin2010


    Does anyone know if it's possible to buy my own cable modem and use that with NTL? I have tried everything else I can possibly think of and NTL support won't help me at all.


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    #4
    _Sidhe_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 193 ✭✭_Sidhe_


    No, with any cable BB service, you need to use the modem supplied.
    It's the only way they can regulate the speed/package you get.

    TBH it's unlikely that the modem is at fault anyway.
    And if it was a modem swap would resolve it, as it's not a known issue.
    I'm guessing that you're using the Scientific Atlanta modem, as you mentioned an independant router.

    Packet loss is only really gonna be caused by a network issue.

    How are the tech support not helping you?
    They can test the modem, and pick up on any packet loss.
    What did they say when you rang them?

    The best thing to do is call them with the laptop directly cabled to the modem, bypassing the router completely, while the issue is effecting you.
    You'll have to go through the usual steps, but you have to expect that ringing any tech support company.

    If it's an issue, they really should be able to pick it up straight away.
    Run some ping tests through the command prompt while speaking to them.
    If you're showing packet loss on that, through a direct connection, then they'll have to do something.


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    #5
    Damien360
    Registered Users Posts: 6,391 ✭✭✭Damien360


    Can I follow up on that with my own 10Mb connection on UPC. I am happy with the browsing, and have no issues online gaming, even though I register 60% packet loss when tested via pingtest.net but my pings are 33ms.

    I am waiting for them to connect my phone to this once they port over my number and the packet loss has me concerned with regards to possible voice quality.

    Should I be concerned at all about the packet loss. I never was before as I focused on speed and pings only.


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    #6
    nin2010
    Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭nin2010


    _Sidhe_ wrote: »
    No, with any cable BB service, you need to use the modem supplied.
    It's the only way they can regulate the speed/package you get.

    TBH it's unlikely that the modem is at fault anyway.
    And if it was a modem swap would resolve it, as it's not a known issue.
    I'm guessing that you're using the Scientific Atlanta modem, as you mentioned an independant router.

    Packet loss is only really gonna be caused by a network issue.

    How are the tech support not helping you?
    They can test the modem, and pick up on any packet loss.
    What did they say when you rang them?

    The best thing to do is call them with the laptop directly cabled to the modem, bypassing the router completely, while the issue is effecting you.
    You'll have to go through the usual steps, but you have to expect that ringing any tech support company.

    If it's an issue, they really should be able to pick it up straight away.
    Run some ping tests through the command prompt while speaking to them.
    If you're showing packet loss on that, through a direct connection, then they'll have to do something.

    Thanks for the info. I have rang them a number of times when I have connected a pc directly to the modem bypassing the router and described the issue to them. I even see packet loss when I ping the default gateway when I do this.

    Every time they have done this they run a test from their end and they don't see any packet loss on the line. They have also checked with supervisors who have checked the line over a period of a week and they don't see any packet loss on that test either.

    So this brings them to the conclusion that there is some problem on my end however I don't see how that can be the case when I have tested this on a number of different pcs and I have switched off the firewall/av while doing the testing to ensure that isn't the issue. I also replaced the network cable from the pc to the modem and the problem still occurs.

    As far as they are concerned the line is working properly and they aren't interested in following the issue any further. They won't send an engineer to look at the issue and the only further advice they offer is to ring a premium rate number for technical support on the pcs.

    Is there any piece of networking equipment I can buy to test this problem extensively or possibly some software I can buy to run some further tests over a long period of time? Maybe if I send them in some logs of what is happening it will help, but I'm guessing they won't be interested unless they can see a fault at their end.

    The only other option is to cancel UPC and return to eircom which are the only other fixed line broadband supplier in my area. Magnet and Smart have told me they don't have their own equipment in my local exchange and would simply resell the eircom broadband. I'm guessing I wouldn't see an increase in reliability with by going with them if that's the case as my eircom adsl was extremely unreliable?


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    #7
    nin2010
    Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭nin2010


    Damien360 wrote: »
    Can I follow up on that with my own 10Mb connection on UPC. I am happy with the browsing, and have no issues online gaming, even though I register 60% packet loss when tested via pingtest.net but my pings are 33ms.

    I am waiting for them to connect my phone to this once they port over my number and the packet loss has me concerned with regards to possible voice quality.

    Should I be concerned at all about the packet loss. I never was before as I focused on speed and pings only.

    There is no problem with the phoneline we have from NTL. I don't get any breaks in voice when using it even when the problem is happening on my pc.


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    #8
    AlmightyCushion
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 35,059 Mod ✭✭✭✭AlmightyCushion


    nin2010 wrote: »
    I even see packet loss when I ping the default gateway when I do this.

    This would indicate that you have a problem with your local network.


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    #9
    nin2010
    Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭nin2010


    AlmightyCushion wrote: »
    This would indicate that you have a problem with your local network.

    Not when I'm connected directly to the modem. The default gateway is in the ISP somewhere. I have done a traceroute on the IP address and it comes back as xxxxNTLWORLD.IExxxx or something along those lines.

    If I am connected through the router then that's my default gateway and I don't get any packet loss running a ping from my pc to that while the problem happens.


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    #10
    AlmightyCushion
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 35,059 Mod ✭✭✭✭AlmightyCushion


    I may be wrong but is your modem not your default gateway when you are connected straight to it?


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    #11
    nin2010
    Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭nin2010


    AlmightyCushion wrote: »
    I may be wrong but is your modem not your default gateway when you are connected straight to it?

    I have the Scientific Atlantic Cable Modem, model EPC2203 and a seperate wireless Netgear router. Apparantly NTL also ships a combined modem and router which does both jobs. The one I have doesn't do any routing at all as far as I know.


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    #12
    AlmightyCushion
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 35,059 Mod ✭✭✭✭AlmightyCushion


    nin2010 wrote: »
    I have the Scientific Atlantic Cable Modem, model EPC2203 and a seperate wireless Netgear router. Apparantly NTL also ships a combined modem and router which does both jobs. The one I have doesn't do any routing at all as far as I know.

    Yeah, I have recently signed up to them (haven't moved into the place yet) and we have the modem/router all in one. I heard it's complete cack though. I'm gonna try and use one of my linksys routers for all routing and just let their modem/router do the modem stuff.


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    #13
    nin2010
    Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭nin2010


    I think I'm going to have to fix this problem myself as UPC obviously aren't going to help.

    I'll try taking connecting the coax cable directly into the modem bypassing the splitter the next time I get the problem. If the problem still exists I'll have to test the coax cable they have wired from outside the house. Is there some type of box the coax comes into outside the house somewhere? Can I buy a coaxial cable tester similar to a UTP cable tester somewhere in Ireland or on the net?

    If there is a box somewhere outside I guess I could hook up a short coax cable directly to the modem and run a ping test then. I could also ask them for a replacement modem or buy it from them and see if that's the issue. After that I'm kind of out of options..


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    #14
    lucernarian
    Registered Users Posts: 9,235 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    The problem is probably at the point where the fibre feeds the coax in your immediate area. Too many people using broadband off the one DOCSIS multiplexer yoke (not sure on proper name:pac:). The effect is called contention.

    Unfortunately, all you can do is nag UPC (speaking to supervisors always works better) and get your neighbours to do the same. Writing letters may be useful. Other posters might have some extra advice with this too, but that's all I can think of.

    An engineer visit won't achieve much as the ordinary guys who are sent out, are not able to do all the network aspects of it like testing cabinet equipment and whatnot. They might check your wiring in your house, see if your modem can connect to the web and then declare it to be fine.


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    #15
    nin2010
    Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭nin2010


    To_be_confirmed wrote: »
    The problem is probably at the point where the fibre feeds the coax in your immediate area. Too many people using broadband off the one DOCSIS multiplexer yoke (not sure on proper name:pac:). The effect is called contention.

    Unfortunately, all you can do is nag UPC (speaking to supervisors always works better) and get your neighbours to do the same. Writing letters may be useful. Other posters might have some extra advice with this too, but that's all I can think of.

    An engineer visit won't achieve much as the ordinary guys who are sent out, are not able to do all the network aspects of it like testing cabinet equipment and whatnot. They might check your wiring in your house, see if your modem can connect to the web and then declare it to be fine.

    I have been doing some reading about it tonight and I think you are probably right unfortunately. It's a pain to have to go to all this trouble just for a stable connection. Do you think that going for something like a 3mb option with NTL would be more stable or would it not help at all? I would prefer if it was stable without the packet loss rather than 20mb and causing me all this grief.

    I found something called docsdiag which should give me some diagnostics of the cable modem.

    http://homepage.ntlworld.com/robin.d.h.walker/docsdiag/


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    #16
    _Sidhe_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 193 ✭✭_Sidhe_


    Damien360 wrote: »
    Can I follow up on that with my own 10Mb connection on UPC. I am happy with the browsing, and have no issues online gaming, even though I register 60% packet loss when tested via pingtest.net but my pings are 33ms.

    I am waiting for them to connect my phone to this once they port over my number and the packet loss has me concerned with regards to possible voice quality.

    Should I be concerned at all about the packet loss. I never was before as I focused on speed and pings only.


    Pingtest.net is a Beta site.
    It gives terrible results for most UPC connections.
    Don't know why, but it's not accurate at all.
    There have been a whole load of people on here reporting the same issue with 58% packet loss being reported.

    Don't worry about it.

    Run your own pings through the command prompt.
    I'm sure you'll see 0% packet loss.


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    #17
    _Sidhe_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 193 ✭✭_Sidhe_


    nin2010 wrote: »
    Thanks for the info. I have rang them a number of times when I have connected a pc directly to the modem bypassing the router and described the issue to them. I even see packet loss when I ping the default gateway when I do this.

    Every time they have done this they run a test from their end and they don't see any packet loss on the line. They have also checked with supervisors who have checked the line over a period of a week and they don't see any packet loss on that test either.

    So this brings them to the conclusion that there is some problem on my end however I don't see how that can be the case when I have tested this on a number of different pcs and I have switched off the firewall/av while doing the testing to ensure that isn't the issue. I also replaced the network cable from the pc to the modem and the problem still occurs.

    As far as they are concerned the line is working properly and they aren't interested in following the issue any further. They won't send an engineer to look at the issue and the only further advice they offer is to ring a premium rate number for technical support on the pcs.

    Is there any piece of networking equipment I can buy to test this problem extensively or possibly some software I can buy to run some further tests over a long period of time? Maybe if I send them in some logs of what is happening it will help, but I'm guessing they won't be interested unless they can see a fault at their end.

    The only other option is to cancel UPC and return to eircom which are the only other fixed line broadband supplier in my area. Magnet and Smart have told me they don't have their own equipment in my local exchange and would simply resell the eircom broadband. I'm guessing I wouldn't see an increase in reliability with by going with them if that's the case as my eircom adsl was extremely unreliable?



    Email all the info to them, and ask in the email to make this an official complaint (ask for them to supply you with your complaint refference number when they reply).
    When you're calling tech support half the time you'll be talking to somebody who knos very little about networking.
    If however you email them with all the details and ping reports, they'll pass that to somebody who knows what they're talking about.
    Probably waiting a few days fro them to get back to you though, but better than paying money on new cables yourself.

    The good thing is that if it turns out to be a problem, you're entitled to credit from the first day that you reported the problem to them.

    Just make sure you ask for that official complaint refference number, as that'd expedite it.
    You need that number before COMREG will get involved, so chances are they'll take it seriously.

    It probably is the drop cable that's causing the problem, if it's not something on your own network.


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    #18
    nin2010
    Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭nin2010


    _Sidhe_ wrote: »
    Email all the info to them, and ask in the email to make this an official complaint (ask for them to supply you with your complaint refference number when they reply).
    When you're calling tech support half the time you'll be talking to somebody who knos very little about networking.
    If however you email them with all the details and ping reports, they'll pass that to somebody who knows what they're talking about.
    Probably waiting a few days fro them to get back to you though, but better than paying money on new cables yourself.

    The good thing is that if it turns out to be a problem, you're entitled to credit from the first day that you reported the problem to them.

    Just make sure you ask for that official complaint refference number, as that'd expedite it.
    You need that number before COMREG will get involved, so chances are they'll take it seriously.

    It probably is the drop cable that's causing the problem, if it's not something on your own network.

    Thanks very much for your advice. I will gather some logs of everything I can and email them in to them and ask for the complaint reference number. Hope it works..


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    #19
    nin2010
    Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭nin2010


    Here's an example of the packet loss I am seeing on my connection. You can see the dropped packets with the *.

    Tracing route to 77.95.25.70 over a maximum of 30 hops

    1 57 ms 53 ms 55 ms 10.97.64.1
    2 50 ms 42 ms 56 ms 089-101-163001.ntlworld.ie [89.101.163.1]
    3 37 ms 26 ms 72 ms 84.116.238.2
    4 73 ms * 56 ms uk-lon01a-rd3-gi-14-0-0.aorta.net [213.46.160.89
    ]
    5 61 ms 82 ms 68 ms uk-lon01a-ri4-gi-1-0.aorta.net [213.46.174.210]

    6 79 ms 95 ms 63 ms ldn-b5-link.telia.net [213.248.96.89]
    7 137 ms 90 ms 92 ms ldn-bb1-link.telia.net [80.91.252.205]
    8 84 ms 69 ms 68 ms prs-bb1-link.telia.net [80.91.247.6]
    9 * 95 ms 93 ms ffm-bb1-link.telia.net [80.91.249.44]
    10 155 ms 61 ms 56 ms ffm-b8-link.telia.net [80.91.254.73]
    11 106 ms 107 ms 114 ms gni-ic-120244-ffm-b6.c.telia.net [213.248.66.70]

    12 103 ms 104 ms 101 ms 77.95.25.14
    13 121 ms 126 ms * 77.95.25.70
    14 * 111 ms * 77.95.25.70
    15 * 118 ms 112 ms 77.95.25.70


    NTL have finally admitted there's a problem and are sending an engineer on Friday to have a look at one problem the guy in tech support said he identified with the modem. He also said there's another problem in the area which should be fixed within two weeks. Glad to finally get some confirmation there's a problem on their end.


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    #20
    Arciphel
    Registered Users Posts: 2,840 ✭✭✭Arciphel


    _Sidhe_ wrote: »
    Pingtest.net is a Beta site.
    It gives terrible results for most UPC connections.
    Don't know why, but it's not accurate at all.
    There have been a whole load of people on here reporting the same issue with 58% packet loss being reported.

    Don't worry about it.

    Run your own pings through the command prompt.
    I'm sure you'll see 0% packet loss.

    I am on UPC 20MB package and I get 0% packet loss on pingtest.net and an "A" rating on my connection. :pac: So not sure if I agree about it not being at all accurate...


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    #21
    _Sidhe_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 193 ✭✭_Sidhe_


    Arciphel wrote: »
    I am on UPC 20MB package and I get 0% packet loss on pingtest.net and an "A" rating on my connection. :pac: So not sure if I agree about it not being at all accurate...


    It's a Beta so it's by no means accurate.
    For some reasons, it gives alot of UPC customers a report of 58% packet loss.
    I'm the same as you.
    I've tsted and gotten repots of no problems.
    0% packet loss, and A rating.

    But my parents, and a friend of mine who lives in the same building, get the 58%-60% packet loss.
    There have also been numerous people on here reporting the same.

    It's just a Beta or compatability issue.


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    #22
    _Sidhe_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 193 ✭✭_Sidhe_


    nin2010 wrote: »
    NTL have finally admitted there's a problem and are sending an engineer on Friday to have a look at one problem the guy in tech support said he identified with the modem. He also said there's another problem in the area which should be fixed within two weeks. Glad to finally get some confirmation there's a problem on their end.


    Good to hear.
    It can be tricky to track these kind of things down.
    It won't show on line tests and it's only under more advanced tests that they can pick it up I suppose.
    When the tech calls out make sure he doesn't fob you off.


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    #23
    Arciphel
    Registered Users Posts: 2,840 ✭✭✭Arciphel


    What about the packet loss estimate you get from running the speedtest over at blacknight, that any more dependable?


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    #24
    _Sidhe_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 193 ✭✭_Sidhe_


    Arciphel wrote: »
    What about the packet loss estimate you get from running the speedtest over at blacknight, that any more dependable?


    I've never tried it myself, but it probably is.
    Thing is though it's still a third party test.
    No ISP is going to accept the results if you find a problem, cause they can use the excuse that it could be a mistakle on the test system.

    You should always just run your own pingtests on the command prompt, and through a direct cabled connection from the modem, bypasing any routing equipment.
    That way it takes any other possible issues out of the equation so to speak.

    If you still see a problem on that, like nin2010, you'll know there is an issue.


    But then again, I'm no expert on the matter like.
    I'm just used to dealling with various ISP's and know that you'll always have to eliminate any outside issues before they'll accept responsibility.


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