How long does it take for you to mix a track?

Denalihighway

Hi lads. Long time MP voyeur and sometimes poster here...

I'm curious how long on average (hours per day) it would normally take you to mix a rock music track to a high standard (the only standard you do I'm assuming ). I realise there are a huge amount of variables involved here, so for this thread let's assume:

• it's guitar rock music. Guitar, bass, drums, main vox and backing vox.
  
• you're aiming for the first tentative mixes here, subject to remixing according to band's creative input etc.
  
• you've been given some mix guidelines by the band IE, soundscapes via mp3, examples of other bands and as much info as possible regarding each song via email etc from the band who are NOT technically trained - so there would be a bit of the old "this vocal should have a nice hall reverb and sound really expansive" etc...the kind of stuff that might wreck mixers head sometimes I guess...
  
• final mixes will be to high, album-standard, mastering to be done seperately
  
• songs are very very heavily tracked/layered and digitally enhanced all the way. IE, total seperation of drumkit - snare + kick together, toms solo, hats solo, cymbals all seperated (I could spend another 5 pages talking about, put it this wayI would have strong opinions on the process). There'll also be quite an amount of sampling to be done re kit sounds.
  
• guitars heavily tracked/layered
  
• vox the same, unfathomable amount layed down.

Hope I've provided sufficient info.

I know it's tempting to discuss the actual recording process as some of you may be rightly horrified at some of the recording antics but can we try to stay on topic - maybe we can set up another thread for the other stuff, though that's been discussed a fair bit before here.

Thanks

PaulBrewer

Usually a day a track would be normal.

That is of course if the track is ready for mixing.

In all my years of doing suchlike I've never (and I mean never!) opened a track and it was ready ..... ever! Even for the few 'name' bands I've done stuff for.

So there could easily be a day spent 'fixing stuff' too - If you have a 'definitive' track you'll save yourself a bundle of time.

Some of the common faults I hear are -

On the musical front ....

Tuning - the number 1 by far , strange in an age when a tuner can be Euro 20

Arrangement - tracks not 'flowing'.

Timing - guys not playing together - that's what 'groove' is.

Decisions - too many tracks - parts playing 'on top' of each other etc.

Technical issues -

Tracks not labeled , no notes

Distortion - you'd be surprised how many things are 'over' recorded.

Edits - bad ones, especially on Drums, clicks pops etc ...

Over Compression - once that's on 'tape' yer phucked.

If you sort out all of this during the production you'll have a better mix because the mixer can go straight for the 'emotional' centre of the track - not have to hack through a lot of Technical hedgerow to get there ...

If you read/hear a lot of top mixers interviews you'll see them talking in very emotional non tech way .... this is what you want, to inspire the mixer.
If the first guitar track they hear on a mix is out of tune and time they'll, quite naturally in my opinion, start to dislike the track - because someone else not doing their job has stopped them doing theirs.

I would suggest that the above is FAR more important in the finished mix than who actually mixes !

This of course is when the possible mixers chosen are of a similar 'standard'.

I'd be interested to hear what the other Pro guys have to say on this subject - I know from a conversation I had only 2 nights ago one well respected Pro guy absolutely agrees.

Effectively YOU start the mixing process, a Mix engineer only finishes it ...

Denalihighway

Thanks for that Paul, it all makes perfect sense but I think I could have saved you the time it took you to type it by saying in OP that the engineer and mixer are the same person. All tuning, timing, compression, arrangement and technical issues in general would have beeen ironed out (hoepfully) pre-mixing and indeed pre-recording obviously.

Sorry for not being clear.

PaulBrewer

Denalihighway wrote: »

Thanks for that Paul, it all makes perfect sense but I think I could have saved you the time it took you to type it by saying in OP that the engineer and mixer are the same person. All tuning, timing, compression, arrangement and technical issues in general would have beeen ironed out (hoepfully) pre-mixing.

Sorry for not being clear.

"Hopefully", you say? Cool - Best of Luck

Denalihighway

PaulBrewer wrote: »

"Hopefully", you say? Cool - Best of Luck

tongue firmly in cheek don't worry...

Basically the person involved in the engineering and mixing (and pre-pro) is a professional so, us, not being technically trained would 'hope' that that technical stuff like distortion/compression is not something we had to worry about...

tuning, timing, arrangements etc we were hapy with as well obviously. We'll just have to wait and see if everybody else is I guess.

anyways, my exact wording was actually 'hoepfully' :P

PaulBrewer

Denalihighway wrote: »

tongue firmly in cheek don't worry...

Basically the person involved in the engineering and mixing (and pre-pro) is a professional so, us, not being technically trained would 'hope' that that technical stuff like distortion/compression is not something we had to worry about...

tuning, timing, arrangements etc we were hapy with as well obviously. We'll just have to wait and see if everybody else is I guess.

anyways, my exact wording was actually 'hoepfully' :P

Good starting point ...

Denalihighway

another quick question - you mention weeding out the unnecessary/bad tracks etc before mixing.

I had thought this was part of mixing, would that kind of stuff come under 'editing' then or what?

PaulBrewer

Well it could - but that really is Production.

Take Mixing by it's name initially - say someone who doesn't know the band.

They open the file and find 33 Guitar tracks - if you want them to make that decision they must listen to 33 guitar tracks , probably more than once and in different combinations to see how the tracks might work.

That takes time and you may not agree with their decisions.

So really the track isn't finished or ready for mixing til those decisions are made - whether it's you make those decisions or the Mixer, those decisions must be made before the final Mixing process can even begin.

One needs to know the Elements you're using to build a track before you 'assemble' it.

I'm working with a band at the moment on a track they've recorded twice before.

There was a Middle 8 section that sounded to me like someone had changed the radio station mid track !

I suggested just losing it, it seemed irrelevant to me - and edited up a demo from the original track.

Everyone agreed it just flowed better and made 'sense' of the song.

Anything you can do to Inspire your Mix guy will come back to you 10 Fold.


At this stage I expect stuff to be wrong when I open a file, so often is the case.

That's not cynicism - thems just facts!

Denalihighway

I hear ya. Cheers

The word production or producer sends a bit of a shiver down me these days. Seems one man's producer/collaborator is another man's autocrat.

Be interested to hear from some of the other lads regarding time spent mixing...

studiorat

I'd agree with Paul and say about a Day per track for a rock track similar to the one being described. However I think it could be fair to say if it's not happening in about 4 hours you may as well start again from the top. (mixing that is)

Bluebirdstudios

Hi,

Given your guidelines - I usually take 2 days
Day 1 - I'll get the track where I want it, mixed more or less dry ,going totally on instinct. Usualy no reference material for ABing.

Day 2 - With fresher ears I'll bring in ref material. work on efx's and work on corrective level and eq's and the vocal "polish" stuff. I mix generally in the analogue domain so the tweaks can operate fast and still at a distinctive level this time checked against ref material.

I like the 2 day system works for me if I'm under pressure to mix in a day I'll use the same system with a 2-3 hour rest to split the day.

- Declan

PaulBrewer

Denalihighway wrote: »

I hear ya. Cheers

The word production or producer sends a bit of a shiver down me these days. Seems one man's producer/collaborator is another man's autocrat.

You've obviously haven't found the right one ?

PaulBrewer

By coincidence I was chatting to an engineer friend who's working with a well known singer who, in this instance, is also 'producing'.

I enquired how the session was going and he replied that it was going to be 'unmixable' mainly for the arrangement issues I mention above.

I didn't tell him about this thread - he's down enough already !

DamagedTrax

as paul said depends on how much cleaning needs to be done.

but for pure mixing usually 2 days. day 1 on the actual mix and day two to return to it on fresh ears and make changes.

.. ok well maybe 1 and 1/2 days.

Rockshamrover

It would be great to see this process in action, from raw tracks to finished mixed tracks.

Does anyone know of any sites where this kind of stuff can be viewed?

Denalihighway

PaulBrewer wrote: »

You've obviously haven't found the right one ?

you might say that. But on the up side it's been a monumental learning curve..

PaulBrewer

Denalihighway wrote: »

you might say that. But on the up side it's been a monumental learning curve..

I hear ya ...

tweeky

A day to fix and a day min to mix. These day's the fix may have to be done in your own time and at your expense but if it makes it better i'll always do it.

studiorat

tweeky wrote: »

A day to fix and a day min to mix. These day's the fix may have to be done in your own time and at your expense but if it makes it better i'll always do it.

Agreed.

I've seen Tweeky do his thing, talk about leaving no stone un-turned. Amazing attention to detail.

Seziertisch

tweeky wrote: »

A day to fix and a day min to mix. These day's the fix may have to be done in your own time and at your expense but if it makes it better i'll always do it.

If I remember correctly, there was another discussion here relatively recently about mixing, and a couple of guys were talking about how important it was to get paid for the work you did and basically said that they wouldn't do what Tweeky does. Goes to show what real pro attitude is.

PaulBrewer

Seziertisch wrote: »

If I remember correctly, there was another discussion here relatively recently about mixing, and a couple of guys were talking about how important it was to get paid for the work you did and basically said that they wouldn't do what Tweeky does. Goes to show what real pro attitude is.

Don't mind him ....

Seziertisch

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Don't mind him ....

My point is that a least a couple of those guys who said they needed to get paid for everything they did are more or less complete unknowns with little enough experience (relatively speaking) and who haven't released anything professionally and who possibly have yet to deliver what would be considered in the business a "pro, ready to release" mix. I gather that Tweeky doesn't fall into any of those categories.

trackmixstudio

I sometimes do a free day for a band if they are planning to do an album.
I consider it to be "direct marketing". It only costs my time for the free day and I have yet to end up not getting the gig.

As regards mixing, if the song is ready to go with all editing, fades, arrangement etc sorted out, I start at 10am and find it peaks at about 3-4pm.
Any further messing at that point usually does more harm than good in my experience. If the mix isn't finished by then I will move onto the next song (if there is more than one) and continue on that until 7pm and go back to the first song the next day.
Case in point, the end of session rough mix sometimes sounds better than the 8 hour mix:p
It is great help to line up all the tracks on every song so kit is on tracks 1-13, bass on 14/15, guitars 16-20 etc.
This way you can copy the mix from the mixed song and tweak it for the next rather than start from scratch. In most cases you will want a consistent mix, especially on the drums. This saves a LOT of time and generally each subsequent mix will fall into place much quicker than starting from scratch each time. In logic you can copy/paste the "audio configuration" which includes all levels fx and sends and bus effects. PT's import session data does a similar job.

To the OP, it sounds like you are sussing out whether the engineer/producer is "filling their diary" at your expense. If so, it is up to you whether you trust the guy or not. Ask for a copy of the session files. He will think you are weighing up your options rather than blindly sticking with him.

If you are, in a roundabout way, looking for somebody to mix your stuff, why not throw the session files for one song on megaupload and I'm sure a few of the guys here would do a mix and you can decide from there.

PMI

A Day would be nice to do it the way we would all like it done, but with many bands who expect to record and mix the same day due to clock and money sometimes you have to sacrifice a few things in order to get it done

Hate it when it goes that way but not all sessions even when you explain to them are up for allocating a day for mixing.... they're usually young guys in a rush to show their mates... haha

Denalihighway

trackmixstudio wrote: »

I sometimes do a free day for a band if they are planning to do an album.
I consider it to be "direct marketing". It only costs my time for the free day and I have yet to end up not getting the gig.

As regards mixing, if the song is ready to go with all editing, fades, arrangement etc sorted out, I start at 10am and find it peaks at about 3-4pm.
Any further messing at that point usually does more harm than good in my experience. If the mix isn't finished by then I will move onto the next song (if there is more than one) and continue on that until 7pm and go back to the first song the next day.
Case in point, the end of session rough mix sometimes sounds better than the 8 hour mix:p
It is great help to line up all the tracks on every song so kit is on tracks 1-13, bass on 14/15, guitars 16-20 etc.
This way you can copy the mix from the mixed song and tweak it for the next rather than start from scratch. In most cases you will want a consistent mix, especially on the drums. This saves a LOT of time and generally each subsequent mix will fall into place much quicker than starting from scratch each time. In logic you can copy/paste the "audio configuration" which includes all levels fx and sends and bus effects. PT's import session data does a similar job.

To the OP, it sounds like you are sussing out whether the engineer/producer is "filling their diary" at your expense. If so, it is up to you whether you trust the guy or not. Ask for a copy of the session files. He will think you are weighing up your options rather than blindly sticking with him.

If you are, in a roundabout way, looking for somebody to mix your stuff, why not throw the session files for one song on megaupload and I'm sure a few of the guys here would do a mix and you can decide from there.

nope trackmixstudio...not looking for a mix engineer. As is probably obvious, there are issues with the situation in question but hopefully not too serious to warrant jumping ship at this late stage. Wouldn't be comfortable going into it more since anyone could be reading this. I was just curious really, it helps me manage my expectations also.

cheers

henessjon

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Usually a day a track would be normal.

That is of course if the track is ready for mixing.

In all my years of doing suchlike I've never (and I mean never!) opened a track and it was ready ..... ever! Even for the few 'name' bands I've done stuff for.

So there could easily be a day spent 'fixing stuff' too - If you have a 'definitive' track you'll save yourself a bundle of time.

Some of the common faults I hear are -

On the musical front ....

Tuning - the number 1 by far , strange in an age when a tuner can be Euro 20

Arrangement - tracks not 'flowing'.

Timing - guys not playing together - that's what 'groove' is.

Decisions - too many tracks - parts playing 'on top' of each other etc.

Technical issues -

Tracks not labeled , no notes

Distortion - you'd be surprised how many things are 'over' recorded.

Edits - bad ones, especially on Drums, clicks pops etc ...

Over Compression - once that's on 'tape' yer phucked.

If you sort out all of this during the production you'll have a better mix because the mixer can go straight for the 'emotional' centre of the track - not have to hack through a lot of Technical hedgerow to get there ...

If you read/hear a lot of top mixers interviews you'll see them talking in very emotional non tech way .... this is what you want, to inspire the mixer.
If the first guitar track they hear on a mix is out of tune and time they'll, quite naturally in my opinion, start to dislike the track - because someone else not doing their job has stopped them doing theirs.

I would suggest that the above is FAR more important in the finished mix than who actually mixes !

This of course is when the possible mixers chosen are of a similar 'standard'.

I'd be interested to hear what the other Pro guys have to say on this subject - I know from a conversation I had only 2 nights ago one well respected Pro guy absolutely agrees.

Effectively YOU start the mixing process, a Mix engineer only finishes it ...

something for me to work on thanks

if6was9

Usually takes me in about 2 days of actual working but I like to take a few days break between the tracking and mixing so I can come in with fresh ears and get the best out of it.

Since I do this on the side I often don't get full days to work on mixes either having to make time for it around work and sleep. I normally quote bands as having a mix within 2 weeks of tracking.

Nothing grates me more than when bands force me to finish mixes earlier than I had quoted. I've had a couple of bands book mastering sessions after we finished tracking, but for dates before the date they'd have their mixes.

One band did this while I was working in Cork but all my gear was where I lived in Limerick and came on the days off. We finished tracking in Limerick, I told them it would be 2 weeks, I went to work in Cork then 2-3 days later I started getting phone calls and texts asking hows the mix coming along, can they hear it now- I'd not even been back to Limerick to start it, then they dropped the bombshell they'd booked a mastering session for a few days time and couldn't be late with it. So I hi-tailed it back to Limerick between working hours to get it done on time and did get it done.
Mastering guy spent nearly 2 months with the 4 tracks before sending em back to the band. Lesson learned

Fstudios

Recently I sent out an album to be mixed by Tom Lord Alge in the US, he had 2 pages of guideline for the tracks to be prepared for his mix session, the basic premise being that everything that was on the session was to be used, already edited and tuned. No extra tracks to be dealt with.

Hear his mixes here: http://www.myspace.com/kopek

Basically he treats Pro Tools like a tape machine (which is exactly the idea behind it!) he gets the tracks onto the console and off he goes.... he doesn't want to edit anything in any way, it takes away from the flow of the day.

Mostly he had tracks done in a day, that includes all the breaks to make sure that things are fresh in his mind.

I think that from an engineering standpoint you have 3 major processes in the album process:

1. Recording
2. Editing (including timing and tuning)
3. Mixing

Not getting bogged down with the producers role (which changes based on who it is, their personal style and level of involvement) you'll find that these 3 things are very separate and there is no crossover.

Mixers don't like editing, you'll find that across the board. (Certainly that way with me!)

Mixing times vary a huge amount depending on musical style, amount of track, experience, the list goes on & on..... & on & on..... & on.

Fstudios

Fstudios wrote: »

Recently I sent out an album to be mixed by Tom Lord Alge in the US, he had 2 pages of guideline for the tracks to be prepared for his mix session, the basic premise being that everything that was on the session was to be used, already edited and tuned. No extra tracks to be dealt with.

Hear his mixes here: http://www.myspace.com/kopek

Basically he treats Pro Tools like a tape machine (which is exactly the idea behind it!) he gets the tracks onto the console and off he goes.... he doesn't want to edit anything in any way, it takes away from the flow of the day.

Mostly he had tracks done in a day, that includes all the breaks to make sure that things are fresh in his mind.

I think that from an engineering standpoint you have 3 major processes in the album process:

1. Recording
2. Editing (including timing and tuning)
3. Mixing

Not getting bogged down with the producers role (which changes based on who it is, their personal style and level of involvement) you'll find that these 3 things are very separate and there is no crossover.

Mixers don't like editing, you'll find that across the board. (Certainly that way with me!)

Mixing times vary a huge amount depending on musical style, amount of track, experience, the list goes on & on..... & on & on..... & on.

Here's some info on him: http://www.nettwerk.com/producer/tom-lord-alge

PaulBrewer

Fstudios wrote: »

Recently I sent out an album to be mixed by Tom Lord Alge in the US, he had 2 pages of guideline for the tracks to be prepared for his mix session,.

What are on the 2 pages F?

Fstudios

I was trying to find them, I'll see if I can dig them out for you.

Fstudios

Here it is:



Tom Lord-Alge Pro Tools Guideline
*It is important to follow these guidelines in order to avoid additional studio costs and unnecessary delay
*Tom mixes from Pro Tools 5.1 24 Bit or HD 96K {General Guidelines}
1. Please send only SCSI Removable, Firewire hard drives & CDRs. We no longer work with 24 track ANALOG or 48 track Digital tapes. If your project is on one of these formats, please transfer prior to shipping.
2. To help ensure no delays on the scheduled mix day, it is essential that the Pro Tools files are received 24 hours prior to the mixing session. If they are not at South Beach Studios 24 hours in advance. Toms’ assistant will not have time to prepare the files, and the song or songs cannot be mixed. Also, it is likely the studio will charge for lost time.
If Tom is mixing an entire CD, please indicate the order in which the songs are to be mixed (this gives Tom’s assistant time to prepare the files to Tom’s specs).
3. It is important to include a rough mix, either by mp3 to the project coordinator, or by audio CD. If the "Rough Mix" and the Pro Tools files don’t match exactly, a brief note should be sent along explaining the difference (i.e. "The song was re-sung" or "We redid the drums"); If this is the case, please make a new "Rough Mix" CD. The reason for this is if the arrangement is different and no explanation is given, Tom starts to question whether or not he has the correct session.
Continued... page 1 of 3
*Please pass along the following instructions to your
pro tools engineer {Tech guidelines}
1. Managing a session: Only one session should be sent for each title. It should be labeled as "(Song title) For TLA". No other sessions should be included. It should be notated clearly and correctly so there is no misunderstanding what a part is. PARTS THAT ARE NOT TO BE USED SHOULD BE DELETED. Not hidden, but deleted. Hidden tracks WILL be deleted By Tom’s assistant before Tom gets the song. This also includes play lists not being used. Please delete them (The number one reason for HUGE files are all the unused play lists). Again, Tom’s assistant has been instructed to delete these before they get to Tom. It is very easy to clean out a session and then "Save a Session Copy In" checking the "All Audio Files" box to save a new session and audio files. Make sure that you "Delete Unused Regions" from the session first so they don’t take up disk space in the new session. Make sure that you open up this session and that there are no missing audio files (If audio files are missing, whether they are being used or not, Tom will question the validity of the entire session). Make an extra copy of the EXACT session for yourself in case Tom has any questions, you will be able to see EXACTLY what he has. Also, in some very rare cases, another engineer may need to do a mix of the song, this copy cab be used for that. It also may be used for record company archives. If more than 64 Voices are being used, it is the responsibility of the Pro Tools engineer to assign them so everything can play.
2. Automation & Plug Ins: Record any effects that are part of the songs integrity. For example, a guitar going through "Amp Farm" or a "Telephone Vox" Efx. Label it then save the original and make sure you CLEARLY LABEL that it was unaffected sound in the note page. Once this has been done, REMOVE ALL PLUG INS. All automation should be removed from the session. (not disabling the master automation). Delete any and all volume moves, mutes, automated plug ins, etc. from the individual channels.
Continued page 2 of 3
Continued...Tom Lord-Alge Pro Tools Guideline
3. Track Labeling: Since there is no standard for this, Tom is asking you to spend some time and label the instruments so there is no guessing what they are. Many times we have received tracks labeled in "hieroglyphics". If you follow these suggestions, you will get a better mix.
Vocals- Lead vocal should be marked as such: "Ld Vox", Not "John Vocal 5". The same for vocal doubles- "Ld Vox Dbl" or “Br Vox”.
Instruments- Notate the main instruments as such: i.e. "Main Gtr", not "Joey SG6"(add the suffix "L" or "R" if there are a pair of them). Including the section that they play is also helpful, i.e. "Br Pad", not "Virus" (This is the pad that ONLY plays in the bridge).
Drums- Unless there are more than one mic on any drum or room, we don’t need to know what the mic is, rather what the sound is (If you must leave the mic info, put it on the note page).
Bass Drum- “Ft” or “Bd” Snare Drum- “Snr” add the suffix “Top” or “Bttm” if applicable.
Etc......
Alternate Instrumentation
Tom knows that it is impossible to make ALL the decisions before the mix, so if there are questionable parts that you may or may not want to use, these should have "?" in front of them i.e. "?Br Gtr Line". Tom will use his discretion on whether these will be used.
With all instruments, any note in the comment boxes is helpful.

tweeky

Tom's notes make sense but in reality most ProTool sessions i receive are a mess with only the old school Engineers ones (that existed in the note taking and tracksheet days) being the exception.
The joy to receive a properly produced track with groove, tuning, edited and properly labelled but most of all a great song. The world of the top mixers with
assistants and great gear (lots of) is a small club. A friend had a track mixed by a world famous mixer not so long ago and when attending the mix he noticed that the assistant practically had the track mixed before xxxxx came
into the studio.

PaulBrewer

Is that Bob ClearXXXXX or Cenzo TownsXXXX or even Hugh PadgXXXXX Tweeky ?

tweeky

Mountain. The rough mix of this session already sounded great in my opinion as it was recorded by Tim Martin and track was as we say "on a plate".
Bob's Assistant then prepped, patched, inserted compressors, added effects and set up a rough mix on the board. Bob came in later for the final balance (which he does so well) and after a few hours (and a few thousand dollars) the mix was in the bag.

PaulBrewer

tweeky wrote: »

Mountain. The rough mix of this session already sounded great in my opinion as it was recorded by Tim Martin and track was as we say "on a plate".
Bob's Assistant then prepped, patched, inserted compressors, added effects and set up a rough mix on the board. Bob came in later for the final balance (which he does so well) and after a few hours (and a few thousand dollars) the mix was in the bag.

Are you allowed to say who the band was ? I only met Tim once but know his Clannad work well - I'm well into a Magical Ring, me ...

woodsdenis

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2759219/P%26E%20PT%20Guide%2B%20Info/P%26E%20Wing-PT%20Guidelines%20v2.0sw2.pdf

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2759219/P%26E%20PT%20Guide%2B%20Info/PTSession%20Info.dot

Here are a couple of docs worth downloading. Basically an attempt to standardize the documentation for delivery of DAW files for mixing. Most of it pertains to Protools as it is the most common medium. Like the TLA spec sheet its mostly common sense.