all blacks vs italy last 10 mins scrumathon

handsomecake

paddy o brien has given stuart dickonson a dressing down for giving the all blacks a raw deal in the scrum farce which blighted the last 9 or so minutes against italy. for those who have not seen it there was essentially 9 minutes of reset scrums from the 71st minute to the final whistle .

neemia tialata was sin binned during the pantomime that ensued.
wyatt crockett was given the shepards crook by graham henry after "seemingly repeated infringements" but this transpired to be false.
the following is from the new zealand herald:
LONDON - International Rugby Board (IRB) referees' boss Paddy O'Brien has given Stuart Dickinson a rev-up and apologised to the All Blacks for the Australian whistler's errors at the scrum last weekend.

New Zealand's former top referee told coach Graham Henry when they met in London today that Dickinson got it wrong, and Italy's props were breaching the laws as they appeared to dominate the All Blacks' scrum in Milan.

"The best example I can use is in the last 10 minutes there were eight scrums, of which seven, the tighthead for Italy is purely illegal," O'Brien told Fairfax media.

"Up here they're crying that it should have been a penalty try. It should have been a penalty first scrum to the All Blacks."

Italy coach Nick Mallett called for a penalty try as the hosts camped on the All Blacks' line, while the tourists claimed tighthead Martin Castrogiovanni was boring in on Wyatt Crockett throughout the test.

All Blacks assistant coach Steve Hansen yesterday accused Dickinson of "guessing" in his scrum rulings.


O'Brien said Dickinson would need to study a DVD of the match, he would be coached on how to better adjudicate the scrums, and told to lift his game or it could affect his future appointments.

"We've got to be fair to teams. If the referee is not accurate we've got to put our hand up. We need to educate that referee and get him better because that scrummaging on Saturday was not up to international standard."

He said the impact on Crockett had to be taken into account, as he was subbed off in the 60th minute after repeatedly trying to tell Dickinson of the problems at scrum time.

"You've got a young guy trying to launch his test career and get things right and the referee is inaccurate. Then it's our problem," O'Brien said.

"We've got to deal with the ref which we will just like Graham deals with a player who is not playing well."

South African's Jonathan Kaplan will control the All Blacks' test against England at Twickenham on Sunday (NZT).

- NZPA

chupacabra

Yeah i watched that match and i was roaring at my tv by the end. It was an utter disgrace that italy were not awarded a penalty try and Dickinsons excuse of "The scrum hasn't advanced past the mark" was astounding tbh as the bloody ball had past the mark at the back of the scrum no fewer than 3 times! No idea what the ref was playing at and it was down right unfair.

handsomecake

chupacabra wrote: »

Yeah i watched that match and i was roaring at my tv by the end. It was an utter disgrace that italy were not awarded a penalty try and Dickinsons excuse of "The scrum hasn't advanced past the mark" was astounding tbh as the bloody ball had past the mark at the back of the scrum no fewer than 3 times! No idea what the ref was playing at and it was down right unfair.

did you not read the article.
the italians were found to be scrummaging illegally.
it should have been penalty black

anonymous_joe

Don't recall anyone saying this during the Lions tour.

chupacabra

handsomecake wrote: »

did you not read the article.
the italians were found to be scrummaging illegally.
it should have been penalty black

Yeah i read the article, total rubbish. The italians were just putting immense pressure on the all blakcs front row, did you watch the game?

handsomecake

chupacabra wrote: »

Yeah i read the article, total rubbish. The italians were just putting immense pressure on the all blakcs front row, did you watch the game?

yes

jank

Just the Kiwis moaning and deflecting attention of a very bad game they played. The days of the invincible all blacks are numbered.

ManofMunster

don't know what o'brien is talking about. italian scrum seemed well on top. person best located to spot infringements was the ref and he evidently felt the kiwis were scrummaging illegally.

was an absolute joke no pen try was awarded. if the roles were reversed and the italians were repeatedly collapsing the scrums, the ref would've been under the posts by the third penalty.

buck65

Should have been a penalty try to the Azurri, they were given 3 or 4 penalties in a 5 metre position. If the Italian scrum was illegal all day that's another story. I remember he beast boring alot in the first Lions test and S A got the penalties. Dickinson hadn't a clue what was going on.

Bit of a strange one from O Brien, apologising to the might All Blacks, Italy should have had the apology. Another proof that the big teams are biased towards by IRB.

enda1

I thought it could only be a penalty try if there was a penalty committed which prevented a certain try. Is this wrong?
Cause even if the All Blacks were scrummaging illegally, I don't see how they were preventing a "certain try".

csm

They were being illegal for a reason. If they had allowed a scrum to occur they would have been driven backwards and over the line. That's the reasoning behind giving a penalty try anyway. I think if the ref is giving yellow cards & a number of penalties then he has to give a penalty try. Although I'm happy to concede that Dickinson & O'Brien know more about interpretation of the rules than I do.

thomond2006

enda1 wrote: »

I thought it could only be a penalty try if there was a penalty committed which prevented a certain try. Is this wrong?
Cause even if the All Blacks were scrummaging illegally, I don't see how they were preventing a "certain try".

If there are repeat infringements in scrums near the line, the referee must assume that the defending team are illegally attempting to prevent a try.

Think from a defensive point of view, if you know you're going to concede a pushover try, the first thing that you'll do is collapse the scrum and see if you'll get away with it. With the scrum being inconsistently refereed nowadays, it's a 50/50 call.

Aidric

I watched this on Saturday as well. Everyone bar the All Blacks were livid in the stadium. Collapsed scrum after collapsed scrum and he keeps reforming. The Italians deserved a try and Dickinson bottled it imo. Parisse in particular was livid.

thomond2006

Coaches and players must be pulling their hair out at this constant debacle.

We see this ourselves every week in the Magners League but it has crept into top level matches as well (The Beast's illegal scrummaging in the 1st test anyone?)

It's just not good enough for a professional sport (insert "it's the same in soccer" here ) to have this disgraceful standard of officiating,

If every ref was as good Alain Rolland, we'd be fine.

Judgement Day

jank wrote: »

Just the Kiwis moaning and deflecting attention of a very bad game they played. The days of the invincible all blacks are numbered.

Been here before I think. The days of the All Blacks invincibilty have been predicted many times and while the current team is nothing like as good as those on previous tours it's just a blip and NH teams had better enjoy it while it lasts. Normal service will be resumed shortly.

anonymous_joe

thomond2006 wrote: »

Coaches and players must be pulling their hair out at this constant debacle.

We see this ourselves every week in the Magners League but it has crept into top level matches as well (The Beast's illegal scrummaging in the 1st test anyone?)

It's just not good enough for a professional sport (insert "it's the same in soccer" here ) to have this disgraceful standard of officiating,

If every ref was as good Alain Rolland, we'd be fine.

Football has an astonishingly high standard of reffing when you consider the conditions in which they operate.

They make very few mistakes, and it's a sign of how competitive the sport is at its highest levels that even a minor error can determine a game.

-K2-

Judgement Day wrote: »

Normal service will be resumed shortly.

Yes, the ABs will be on top for 3 years and fail in the World Cup, again.

Cuchulain

I have to say that determining the offences in rugby union is a pure lottery.

For example SH referees generally dont ping players for going off their feet at a breakdown/ruck whilst NH referees regularly blow up for it. Kaplin only gave one penalty against the Aussies for doing that and it was happening all over the place.

The same goes for scrumtime. There could be numerous offences in one scrum, props boring in, ball not being straight, illegal binding, flankers breaking off too early and about 3 zillion other offences.

Something has to be done regarding the rules as its a thankless job for the referees trying to be fair and the players who are afraid to play the game in fear of being pinged.

thomond2006

ElectronEng wrote: »

Yes, the ABs will be on top for 3 years and fail in the World Cup, again.

That is fact, not opinion. :pac:

stephen_n

Frankly I'm very surprised at O'Brien undermining Dickonson. Having watched the match I'm not sure Italy were doing anything illegal but with front rows it's hard to tell and all refs seem to ref it in a particular way anyway so it is hard to say. I do feel though that considering Dickonson choice to keep peanalising the all blacks that he should have awarded the penalty try. Italy messed up though just after the sending off when the All Blacks played without a wing forward on the blind side and Italy didn't attack it off the scrum!

laugh

I cant see O'Brien in his position for very long after that.

Tim Robbins

Anyone fancy putting a youtube together of the videos so we can discuss?

The problem with the scrum is that there are so many ways you can cheat it's just extremly unlikely that one prop is cheating and the other three are behaving themselves.

ManofMunster

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Football has an astonishingly high standard of reffing when you consider the conditions in which they operate.

They make very few mistakes, and it's a sign of how competitive the sport is at its highest levels that even a minor error can determine a game.

yep football refs miss nothing.

gutted!

Teg Veece

I'm very surprised and Paddy O'Brien's behaviour here.

Regardless of who was infringing at the scrum, the fact that he has singled out a fellow referee and berated him, completely undermines the respect for refs upon which the whole sport depends!

Very poor form altogether.

thomond2006

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Football has an astonishingly high standard of reffing when you consider the conditions in which they operate.

Don't say that to any Irish soccer fan after last night.

:mad:

padser

Did Paddy O Brien really say this? It seems unbelievable especially given his attititude to others critisizing referees. He should be booted out of a job.

From Scrum.com
http://www.scrum.com/england/rugby/story/68735.html

International Rugby Board (IRB) referees' boss Paddy O'Brien says there is no room for coaches publicly criticising referees, and they will be sanctioned for doing so at the World Cup.

New Zealand's O'Brien, in Sydney to discuss the trialling of new laws in the Australian domestic competition, refused to directly discuss Queensland Reds coach Eddie Jones' stinging criticism of referee Matt Goddard at the weekend.

But he urged coaches to go through the proper channels.

"Coaches mouthing off and blaming referees, doesn't do the game, referees or coaches any good," O'Brien said.

O'Brien confirmed written complaints backed by video evidence would be given serious consideration by the IRB at this year's World Cup, but any public post-match criticism would be punished by fines or suspension.

"The really good coaches, and the teams that seem to be at the top of the world at the moment, are the ones that are very proactive in submitting reports to me, accompanied by clips where they think they've been hard done by.

"Those reports carry a lot of weight with our IRB referee selectors."

O'Brien said referees were accountable for their mistakes and the IRB referee selectors would come down harshly on errors to ensure a high quality.

"We saw a bad call in November when England weren't awarded a try against the All Blacks. We've been quite proactive in the media and saying the referee made a huge mistake, and we deal with that in our selection meetings."

Jones faces a judicial hearing before Super 14 governing body Sanzar later this week for his criticism of Goddard after the Reds' narrow loss to the ACT Brumbies at the weekend.

He faces possible suspension for several matches and/or a fine, but the outspoken former Wallabies coach wasn't backing down today.

"I think I have a duty as coach to support my team to ensure we believe we get a fair go and the comments I have made have been in line with that," Jones said.

"I think it is important to have a code of conduct. I don't think you can continuously criticise any part of the game.

"You have to have some objectivity but at the same time if there is something wrong in the game you have to be able to voice it.

"As long as you don't do it all the time, there needs to be a channel for it."

Jones said referees needed to be accountable and called for them to attend post-match press conferences to explain their decisions, an innovation blocked by Sanzar last year.

anonymous_joe

ManofMunster wrote: »

yep football refs miss nothing.

gutted!

thomond2006 wrote: »

Don't say that to any Irish soccer fan after last night.

:mad:

The ironing is delicious.

In a way it proves my point though, sadly. How often do we something like this happening? This is the one major mistake in the two games. One.

Compare that to the first Lions test where no-one knew what the offence in the scrum was, despite the huge number of scrums that were awarded.

Digifriendly

anonymous_joe wrote: »

The ironing is delicious.

The irony in your spelling is delicious too!

enda1

Digifriendly wrote: »

The irony in your spelling is delicious too!

Ever hear of a cartoon about a yellow family. The Samsons or something?