Landlords/Agents keeping deposits

meglome

I was just thinking it might be a good idea to sticky a thread about landlord/agents keeping all or large chunks of deposits unfairly. There seems to be a constant flow of people who feel ripped off.

In my own case we left the apartment spotless and basically in perfect condition (after 6 years) and we've not a hope of getting our €1200 back without the PRTB. I'd been dealing with the agents right hand man and we got on great so he told me that he'd been instructed to ring me and try to fob me off that the apartment wasn't in good condition and we wouldn't be getting our money back. He wasn't happy about being giving the dirty work so he told me the truth that the landlady just didn't want to give the money back. Since then I can't get the agent himself to reply or respond and the landlady has told me point blank never to contact her again. I've applied for adjudication with the PRTB but who knows how long that's going to take.

Agent J

18 months from start to finish based on my personal experience.

But it was worth it to have the Landlord embarass himself at the adjudication hearing and got what was coming to him. I didnt really care about the money,it was the principle of the matter.

Its not that much hassle to be honest. Pay the 25 euro and fill in the form then you get a case reference number. Then wait.

The landlord has to justify their position to keep the deposit. Write down everything that has happened and any documentation you have now so you wont have to remember it when it comes

The only way that landlords are going to be made stop doing this is if people force them to get their money back. The PRTB might be long but it does work.

meglome

Thanks for the reply, I'm looking for other people's experiences of getting ripped of by their landlords which will hopefully help other tenants in chasing down their landlords/agent for their money back.

I'm guessing my own landlady will be in the same position of embarrassment in the PRTB over the next 18 months. Knowing her as I do I'm sure it won't change her sense of entitlement one bit.

Dannyboy83

I'm waiting since January 2009, deposit of €1000.

We left the apartment in good condition.
We left 1 month early (January 14 instead of Febrauary 14) because:
a) Washing machine for broken for 7 months. Landlord never fixed it, despite millions of calls and emails. We had to pay for laundry/electricity elsewhere.

b) He also screwed us on the Gas bill. He never changed the gas bill into our name despite repeated requests, at first we paid all that came our way.
But then we were getting massive gas bills during the summer.
We checked the gas meter and it was out, we realized around September that he had canceled his own gas and combined his meter with ours (we verified using the phone bill system that his account had been closed) so we refused to pay subsequent bills.
We left in January after repeated attempts to resolve the situation

c) On the day he collected the keys, he apologized about the washing machine, I told him get the bills sorted out, and I would pay him from our share from the deposit using our meter readings. He agreed.
Never heard from him again. Never got a cent back.

D) Ignored my phonecall and emails for months afterward. I eventually caught up with him (must have deleted my phone number). He immediately said that WE owed HIM money. Also disputed that the deposit was €1000 and lost his temper when I told him I have it in writing on the contract and have kept all gas bills and records. He admitted he had combined his gas bills with ours, his answer was "so What? What are you gonna do about it?"

I contact threshold several months ago via E-mail, they said come to the office, need a face to face meeting, but I couldn't get the time off work until now.

Any advice appreciated. Never had a problem with a landlord before.
I'm getting a solicitors letter sent to him next week.

p.s. (I subsequently found out he had done the same thing to the tenant before us)

meglome

Some neck on these feckers. You should go to the PRTB and get adjudication, as Agent J said above it's only 25 quid. The form is on the PRTB website. Although that will take at least a year and maybe nearer to two.

mikemac

I have never, ever left a flat or house without meeting the landlord first.
On your moving out day call them and arrange to meet at a time that suits them.

Sort out issues there and then.
Not six weeks later when you are told your carpet has a cigarette burn and nobody has ever smoked there! Landlord looking for the sucker tenant to pay for a new carpet :mad:

And when you move in, photograph everything! Every cupboard, every skirting board and every nook and cranny. Best to have a digital camera for this, it'd kill you to pay for film on all this. It may take 200 hundred plus photos and 20 minutes to do this.

As for you OP, there are very few tenants who would stay somewhere six years! You must have been the perfect tenant and this sort of messing starts?
At least your new landlord will appreciate you

Agent J

mikemac wrote: »

And when you move in, photograph everything! Every cupboard, every skirting boards and every nook and cranny. Best to have a digital camera for this, it's kill you to pay for film on all this

I agree and one addendum. Do the same on the day you leave the house as well.

mikemac

True, good point Agent J ^^^^

meglome

mikemac wrote: »

I have never, ever left a flat or house without meeting the landlord first.
On your moving out day call them and arrange to meet at a time that suits them.

Sort out issues there and then.
Not six weeks later when you are told your carpet has a cigarette burn and nobody has ever smoked there! Landlord looking for the sucker tenant to pay for a new carpet :mad:

And when you move in, photograph everything! Every cupboard, every skirting board and every nook and cranny. Best to have a digital camera for this, it'd kill you to pay for film on all this. It may take 200 hundred plus photos and 20 minutes to do this.

As for you OP, there are very few tenants who would stay somewhere six years! You must have been the perfect tenant and this sort of messing starts?
At least your new landlord will appreciate you

I agree with what you're saying. However I think what's happening to people is the landlords/agents are basically making stuff up and hoping that the tenants will go away and not chase down their money. In my case there really wasn't anything wrong with the apartment, the landlady and agent just won't talk to us. They don't have a leg to stand on when it goes to the PRTB but I reckon I won't see the money otherwise.

Kipperhell

Do you think there should be some equal way a landlord could pursue a tenant for non payment of rent and excessive damage? I am for the name and shame if it is equitable and worked both ways.

The current system is actually in favour of the tenant. A tenant can simple stop paying rent and the landlord is pretty much stuck with a loss with no real course of obtaining the money.

RedPlanet

Kipperhell wrote: »

Do you think there should be some equal way a landlord could pursue a tenant for non payment of rent and excessive damage? I am for the name and shame if it is equitable and worked both ways.

The current system is actually in favour of the tenant. A tenant can simple stop paying rent and the landlord is pretty much stuck with a loss with no real course of obtaining the money.

I don't think you can equate the 2 at all.
The Landlord is operating a business, and therefore is generating profit from letting. The tenent is not generating profit from not paying rent.
The Landlord is using his/her business to steal actual money from the tenent by not returning the deposit.

meglome

Kipperhell wrote: »

Do you think there should be some equal way a landlord could pursue a tenant for non payment of rent and excessive damage? I am for the name and shame if it is equitable and worked both ways.

The current system is actually in favour of the tenant. A tenant can simple stop paying rent and the landlord is pretty much stuck with a loss with no real course of obtaining the money.

I do feel that the landlord can get stiffed by the tenants more easily now and that isn't fair. However there are still many terrible landlords in this country. When the landlords/agents are keeping deposits unfairly they are stealing other peoples money, it's as simple as that. If it was done in other circumstances they;d find themselves in court.

the_syco

RedPlanet wrote: »

The Landlord is operating a business, and therefore is generating profit from letting.

The landlord provides a service. Currently, if you suddenly stop paying for said service, the landlord can't do diddly about it.

meglome wrote: »

When the landlords/agents are keeping deposits unfairly they are stealing other peoples money, it's as simple as that.

It's wrong, and they can be made pay it through a cheap legal system. If the landlord want to chase the tenant, he has to go through the expensive court route.

RedPlanet

the_syco wrote: »

The landlord provides a service. Currently, if you suddenly stop paying for said service, the landlord can't do diddly about it.

Definitions of service on the Web:

• work done by one person or group that benefits another; "budget separately for goods and services"
• an act of help or assistance; "he did them a service"
• the act of public worship following prescribed rules; "the Sunday service"
• a company or agency that performs a public service; subject to government regulation
• employment in or work for another; "he retired after 30 years of service"
• military service: a force that is a branch of the armed forces
• Canadian writer (born in England) who wrote about life in the Yukon Territory (1874-1958)
• avail: a means of serving; "of no avail"; "there's no help for it"
• tableware consisting of a complete set of articles (silver or dishware) for use at table
• servicing: the act of mating by male animals; "the bull was worth good money in servicing fees"
• (law) the acts performed by an English feudal tenant for the benefit of his lord which formed the consideration for the property granted to him
• serve: (sports) a stroke that puts the ball in play; "his powerful serves won the game"
• be used by; as of a utility; "The sewage plant served the neighboring communities"; "The garage served to shelter his horses"
• the act of delivering a writ or summons upon someone; "he accepted service of the subpoena"
• make fit for use; "service my truck"; "the washing machine needs to be serviced"
  wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

:rolleyes:

seahorse

This nasty little scam is as old as time. It's happened to me almost every time I moved out of a property and I've done a fair amount of moving since I started renting in Dublin in 1992. There was never any excuse for it as I very often left apartments in better nick than I got them, and never left them worse. It is theft and it should be labelled as such. If I took a landlords washing machine with me when I moved nobody would be slow to call a spade a spade. :mad:

D3PO

I still cant believe that people are silly enough to give back keys without getting their deposit back.

There is NO reason for it all not to be sorted on the day you are leaving. Demand the landlord for letting agent inspect on the day your moving out before you hand back the keys.

Do the meter reading for the ESB at the same time. It isnt rocket science to work out whats owed. You can ring and get a figure to close out any accounts with Bord gais etc so again all can be sorted whilst the landlord is there.

Why people agree to hand back keys without getting their deposit back is beyond me

super_furry

After having massive problems twice with having a deposit returned - one for having 'long grass' in the back-garden and a crack in window that we there when we moved in, the other simply wouldn't answer or return calls - I now use the deposit as the last month's rent. Sure the landlords are unhappy, but every property I've ever rented has been left in the same (if not better) condition than when I entered it and I'm simply not willing to leave myself open to being ripped off again.

Kipperhell

RedPlanet wrote: »

I don't think you can equate the 2 at all.
The Landlord is operating a business, and therefore is generating profit from letting. The tenent is not generating profit from not paying rent.
The Landlord is using his/her business to steal actual money from the tenent by not returning the deposit.

So according to you it is okay to take something for nothing if the other person is making a profit? That is stealing it shouldn't matter who it is from. So you don't want a fair equitable system.

meglome wrote: »

I do feel that the landlord can get stiffed by the tenants more easily now and that isn't fair. However there are still many terrible landlords in this country. When the landlords/agents are keeping deposits unfairly they are stealing other peoples money, it's as simple as that. If it was done in other circumstances they;d find themselves in court.

They do find themselves in court and it can be done with ease. As a landlord you should have the similar protection for theft of a service. I would assume there is just as many terrible people either side of the landlord tenant divide.

I have met my share of terrible landlords and tenants. I have also met more anti-landlord people than people who would even defend them. Part of it is human nature as regards to disregarding something you don't own and some of it is malicious.

If you leave the system as inequitable people will treat people unfairly. People should be help accountable for their actions either way landlord or tenant. A one-way system is pretty unfair and would never get off the ground or government support

RedPlanet

Kipperhell wrote: »

So according to you it is okay to take something for nothing if the other person is making a profit?

Yeah cause that's like, exactly what i said.. /sarcasm :rolleyes:

Kipperhell wrote: »

As a landlord you should have the similar protection for theft of a service.

Nope, you're not comparing like with like.
If a tenent doesn't pay rent, he/she is not fulfilling a contract, ie: a promise to pay money.
That is not the same thing as reaching into the person's wallet and helping yourself to 1000€.
Bad yes, stealing No.

Kipperhell

RedPlanet wrote: »

Yeah cause that's like, exactly what i said.. /sarcasm :rolleyes:

Nope, you're not comparing like with like.
If a tenent doesn't pay rent, he/she is not fulfilling a contract, ie: a promise to pay money.
That is not the same thing as reaching into the person's wallet and helping yourself to 1000€.
Bad yes, stealing No.

Actually it what you are saying. You are just trying to split hairs as it could be equally said the landlord is not fulfilling the contract by not returning the deposit. At no point is a landlord reaching into somebody's wallet and taking money out. No payment for a service is a form of theft if you think otherwise I would be surprised that many people would agree. I won't argue semantics with you.

From experience I would say that most deposit disputes are very subjective.

meglome

D3PO wrote: »

I still cant believe that people are silly enough to give back keys without getting their deposit back.

There is NO reason for it all not to be sorted on the day you are leaving. Demand the landlord for letting agent inspect on the day your moving out before you hand back the keys.

Do the meter reading for the ESB at the same time. It isnt rocket science to work out whats owed. You can ring and get a figure to close out any accounts with Bord gais etc so again all can be sorted whilst the landlord is there.

Why people agree to hand back keys without getting their deposit back is beyond me

Very easy to say this but much harder in practice to actually do it. For me they were trying to use the excuse that I still had the keys not to give me back my deposit. Now I was aware at that point they had no real intention of giving me back my deposit so I handed back the keys and got the PRTB form filled.

super_furry wrote: »

After having massive problems twice with having a deposit returned - one for having 'long grass' in the back-garden and a crack in window that we there when we moved in, the other simply wouldn't answer or return calls - I now use the deposit as the last month's rent. Sure the landlords are unhappy, but every property I've ever rented has been left in the same (if not better) condition than when I entered it and I'm simply not willing to leave myself open to being ripped off again.

I was strongly considering doing this myself but ultimately decided to do the right thing and pay for the last month. I didn't trust my landlady so I wasn't shocked when I didn't get my deposit. Still I did the right thing and the PRTB will eventually get me my money back.

Kipperhell wrote: »

From experience I would say that most deposit disputes are very subjective.

Well my experience is they are not subjective at all, the landlords just don't fancy giving the money back. Now don't get me wrong I'm sure there are many occasions when the landlords correctly keep deposits but many landlords seems to be really taking the weewee and since the downturn it appears to have got much worse.

brendanuk

My Experience, left the place spotless better than when i moved in. The agent came around to do final check everything is ok. She goes on about smudge on bathroom mirror which you could wipe away which i did while she was standing there.

Still said it needed proffesionally cleaned. I asked how much it would be she says she doesnt know! ffs! I said no way, your going to rip me off. anyway under duress agreed to take 50 euros off deposit for cleaning.

So when I left everything was correct and in order and handed over the keys. Said the deposit would be in my account week later. Still waiting month later.

Sickens me that it maybe 12 -24 months before i get the deposit back via the correct channels. repeated phone calls nothing but fobbed off.

I do agree its akin to theft

ekevosu

I am currently in dispute with a landlady over our deposit as it was a rolling deposit to the people that had rented before us (six years before) and no lease and she claimed that the deposit was two thirds of what it was and not a months rent which is what we paid. After beating my head off a wall trying to deal with this person she wouldn't cooperate and her last email was one sentence basically saying, "if I owe you money prove it!"

I trawled through my emails yesterday evening looking for a work related email and stumbled upon an email the week we moved in six years ago, in which I detailed exactly the verbal agreement we had on the deposits and how much we were all supposed to pay and the exact date we were putting it in her bank account.

I danced a little jig around the office before politely sending it on to her and am awaiting her response. She'll still try and come up with a way around it but the email is so precise she wouldn'thave a hope if it ended up in court...... which I hope it won't.

c4cat

Agent J wrote: »

I agree and one addendum. Do the same on the day you leave the house as well.

Even better have the landlord in every shot too

nohopengn

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I'm waiting since January 2009, deposit of €1000.

We left the apartment in good condition.
We left 1 month early (January 14 instead of Febrauary 14) because:

The landlord sounds like a real scumbag and on moral grounds you would expect to get the funds back. However(and I am not in any way sticking up for the scumlord you encountered), as you left 1 month early does the landlord have 'breach of contract' grounds for not refunding the monies??

It's only a question and I do hope you get all monies refunded.

JJ

I had a situation where it took me about a year and a half to get a deposit back from a former landlord but this was back in the old days when you had to go through small claims court.

The process cost about €7 and change and if wanted to escalate it to a sheriff then that cost a further €7 and change but you got that back if the sheriff was able to settle your claim.

I never had to actually go to court or a hearing with my former landlord. I can only presume that my landlord coughed up the money when the sheriff arrived. It did take a lot of following up throughout every step of the process but it was worth it.

chrisr001

The PRTB do not know the difference between right and wrong any more than property owners.
I have had numerous deposits stolen by these 17th century scammers, without ever incurring any reason for a deposit to be witheld.
The only way I could ever ensure I'd get it back was to stay without paying rent for the last month or so.
The PRTB refused to look at evidence I presented to them, they are too far down the food chain

chrisr001

Agent J, do you work for the PRTB or do you rent out property.
What you said is science fiction.

eth0_

chrisr001 wrote: »

The only way I could ever ensure I'd get it back was to stay without paying rent for the last month or so.

Yeah right. And how, exactly, do you get references for future properties you are renting? :rolleyes:

mikemac

I've never met a landlord yet who wanted a landlord reference off me. Sure I could give any name and mobile number for a friend, it proves nothing.

Instead I give a workplace number for HR, once you're working full-time that's usually good enough.
And didn't give references when I was a student either.

chrisr001

reference!!!
as if i'd rent from a twot who asked for a reference,

monkeypants

When I lived in England, I never had a problem with my English landlords/landladies. In Ireland, I've had problems, big or small, with every single one.

Of course, I'm generalising.

hobochris

ednwireland wrote: »

i've just had a tenant move out told me the place was spotless. i am going to have to spend a day cleaning the place because i wouldnt move into it the way it is, i have already lost a months rent because she got a council house and we should have had 56 days notice but the council said 28 days is "enough". i register with the PRTB, pay my tax and 2nd home tax and still get shafted

sorry rant over, but tenants need to see that there are 2 sides to letting property , i'm also going to have to get builders in to meet new regs despite just having done a load of work on the place. (maybe i'm odd in keeping the place to a standard i would be prepared to live in).

and as far as withholding deposit i would give the tenant an itemised receipt of what was owing and return anything left over. its usually been rent and esb

If your looking for sympathy over your business interests, you wont find it here.

A deposit in general is a lot harder to come by for a tenant who is simply looking for a place to live then a landlord who is making easy money.

monkeypants

ednwireland wrote: »

i've just had a tenant move out told me the place was spotless. i am going to have to spend a day cleaning the place because i wouldnt move into it the way it is

Did you hand back the deposit before discussing this?

monkeypants

ednwireland wrote: »

monkeypants the deposit will be given back like i said one persons clean isnt necccesarily anothers

I'm not accusing you of anything or disputing your story. I'm just noticing that in all cases, the keys or deposit are given back without both parties meeting and hammering out the details. It seems like a lot of hassle could be spared by doing so.

Kimia

ednwireland wrote: »

tenants need to see that there are 2 sides to letting property , i'm also going to have to get builders in to meet new regs despite just having done a load of work on the place. (maybe i'm odd in keeping the place to a standard i would be prepared to live in).

/QUOTE]

Look, it's your decision if you want to rent out your home, so don't bother moaning about it here. It's not the tenant's decision to have their deposit held for some ridiculous reason and the problem is that there is no where fast and easy to dispute this.

It's happened to me too, landlord took money out of the deposit for professional cleaning and bar holding a camp out in our apartment there was nothing we could do as she was the one with the money (our money) in her possession.

It's absolute and utter villany, and to be honest I feel like if another landlord takes the p*ss with my money (MY money) again I will have to do something really malicious like wreck something which actually will be worth whatever the landlord keeps. ( I won't, it's just a fantasy I have of my vengeance).

:mad:

ztoical

Kimia wrote: »

Look, it's your decision if you want to rent out your home, so don't bother moaning about it here. It's not the tenant's decision to have their deposit held for some ridiculous reason and the problem is that there is no where fast and easy to dispute this.

Sorry you've had issues with landlords but this is a forum for accommodation and property which covers both landlords and those renting so both should be allowed to give their opinions. This thread is about landlords keeping deposits and landlords should be welcome to post here explaining reasons why they have kept part or all of a deposit.

And ednwireland is right there are two sides to each story, we've had enough threads on here from landlords getting screwed out of rent, having houses/flats left in a state, and being stuck with huge bills. It's the whole reason we have deposits cus sadly it's been proven alot of people can't be trusted. There are good landlords out there just like there are crap ones, same as there are good tenants and crap ones....lets not tar everyone in both groups with the same brush.

And for the record I'm not a landlord nor have I ever been one nor have plans to be one.

oflahero

My experience is that everyone starts out with good intentions, and then has one bad experience, which hardens them up against the rest of humanity. A landlord has a nightmare with scruffbag tenants who leave the place in a wreck, and thereafter resolves to extract as much of subsequent deposits as he/she can, regardless of tenant. Or some young and innocent first-time renters take the lease at its word ("the deposit is to cover damage only, NOT general wear and tear") and inevitably get ripped off by an unscrupulous agent who claims 'professional cleaning' is required at the end of a tenancy - after that, it's all 'bastard landlords'.

My personal story involves moving out of a rented house in 2003, in which I and friends had been since 2001. For the last five months, we had had a lad in to take one of the rooms after the girl therein had moved out. With a month to go, one morning we get a note under our door telling us that the poor guy had died suddenly. Long story short, after all the kerfuffle of the guards, going down the country for his funeral (we felt awful for his family, especially as he'd only really just moved in), we met up with the landlady to finalise the keys & deposit. She took his last month's rent out of the deposit.

I know that she was strictly entitled to the rent according to the lease agreement, but it was a low-down dirty thing to do. The PRTB wasn't around then, and anyway we felt we'd afford the guy a bit more dignity rather than chasing a dead man's rent through small claims court.

monkeypants

ednwireland wrote: »

if another landlord takes the p*ss with my money (MY money) again I will have to do something really malicious like wreck something which actually will be worth whatever the landlord keeps.

I know someone who wasn't getting his deposit back, so he bought a load of cheap paint and chucked it round the place.

Calina

Oh god and I wonder why renting in this country can be hell.

In Belgium, deposits were frequently kept in escrow accounts with both signatures required to retrieve the money.

Wish that could be done here. It would sort out a lot of the deposit messing.