Teaching Council has changed its mind about my degree

clartharlear

I got a letter from the government the other day,
I opened and read it, it said they were suckers

My degree was on the approved list when I first checked in 2006. It was on it when I applied for the PGDE in 2007. It was on it when I did the PGDE in 2008/2009. It was on it when I started work this September.

They sent me a letter saying they changed their hive mind. They want me to give them €200 to tell me what further college courses I need to do to dance to their tune. I had 21 days to appeal to the High Court, except that they posted the letter to my parents' home rather than my term address, so I actually only have a week now.

I'm in such shock. How can they do that to me??? I'm bawling crying now. Hopefully, I'll just be icily angry when I ring them in the morning. What can I say??

spurious

Go see a solicitor.
That's outrageous.

clartharlear

spurious wrote: »

Go see a solicitor.
That's outrageous.

I'm in such shock. How can they do that after saying it was fine for years? I know I'm not the only person with my degree teaching. (Electrical engineering and maths, for what it's worth)

I'm with ASTI - hopefully they'll be able to give me some support in this?

clartharlear

How can I suddenly not be a qualifed teacher??

"Dear Clartharlear," they said, "Please accept my apologies" they said. How very dare they??

In fact, my degree is still sitting pretty on the pdf list on their website.
http://www.teachingcouncil.ie/_fileupload/TC_RegCtee/Autoquals_Updated_9thOctober2009_55076717.pdf

djk1000

I'd say that ASTI is the way to go, it's what they are there for.

Dionysus

This is disgusting. Is there anybody in any teachers' union who would be qualified to sort this out?

This is so very, very unprofessional of them and I'd really like to see you face them down. They cannot mess with your livelihood like this. They just cannot be allowed to.

pathway33

clartharlear wrote: »

How can I suddenly not be a qualifed teacher??

If you are teaching maths it may have something to do with the new syllabus which starts in september. I imagine there would be other maths teachers in a similar situation. If you are in a permanent job you have a very strong case for not doing any more modules. If you on on contract till May then you may be better off doing the other 10 or 15 credits the teaching council may specify rather than getting into a legal dogfight that could put you both out of pocket and out of the profession until you are recognised for the new syllabus.

RealJohn

I know this isn't very helpful but I have nothing good to say about the teaching council. I genuinely don't see any value in it at all.

ytareh

I would love to see ANY TEACHER come here and speak up for the useless quango that is the TC ....Beneath contempt ,dont even get me started.Jobs for the boys and girls paid for by us -one of their ultimate functions may very well be to fire 'underperforming teachers'-unions might be a bit more vociferous if they werent in on the whole sick joke themselves...

bananabunch

They have had my application for 14 months now and still haven't registered me :eek:

clartharlear

pathway33 wrote: »

If you are teaching maths it may have something to do with the new syllabus which starts in september. I imagine there would be other maths teachers in a similar situation. If you are in a permanent job you have a very strong case for not doing any more modules. If you on on contract till May then you may be better off doing the other 10 or 15 credits the teaching council may specify rather than getting into a legal dogfight that could put you both out of pocket and out of the profession until you are recognised for the new syllabus.

It is absolutely nothing to do with the new syllabus. University qualifications are not at all related to secondary syllabi. That's not that much less ridiculous than saying that English teachers need to get new degrees because a new poet is introduced.

As it happens, I'm not in a state school at all right now, but private education is not where I want to be in the long term, but without TC recognition, no school would hire me. Doing the dip is very expensive, in itself, and through loss of earnings. I gladly spent the money following my dreams, but I can't afford the muchos euros it would take to go do another course, even an online one. And why should I have to, when it was all their mistake all along?

ytareh wrote: »

I would love to see ANY TEACHER come here and speak up for the useless quango that is the TC ....Beneath contempt ,dont even get me started.Jobs for the boys and girls paid for by us -one of their ultimate functions may very well be to fire 'underperforming teachers'-unions might be a bit more vociferous if they werent in on the whole sick joke themselves...

I actually thought that the teaching council was a good idea. Some teachers do underperform, and I thought that a professional body might lead to more professional development. I'm ashamed of my naivete.

pathway33

clartharlear wrote: »

University qualifications are not at all related to secondary syllabi.

The requirements specifically state on the teaching council website that 'the breadth and depth of the syllabi undertaken are such as to ensure competence to teach Mathemetics to the highest level in post-primary education'

Obviously if there is a greater emphasis on statistics in the new project maths syllabus then degrees like engineering have to be re-evaluated. Degrees in financial mathematics are now becoming eligible to teach maths whereas before they were not.

I wish you all the best. You are in a situation that is not of your making. However it's better to face the reality that you may have to update your skills. I hope it works out for you.

ytareh

Clar and Pathway you both need to show a bit more solidarity with your colleagues in my opinion...

@Clar ...sure there are a TINY minority of teachers VERY unsuited to the profession but it ill behoves ANY of us to point out those of our fellow workers who we feels are "underperforming" ...that word is going to become a cross on which many a hard working but struggling teacher in a school with poor discipline and/or gossipy parents will be crucified on...(Dont believe me?!What if Id told you 12 months ago that our pension contribution would have been doubled and that THEY were coming back for more from us !?)

@Pathway ...the guy has done an engineering degree ,do you seriously think he cant do secondary school maths ?Do you have more faith in the TC's ability to ascertain this information?In all seriousness there are probably very few subjects at Junior Cycle or maybe even Leaving Cert level that any graduate worth their salt couldnt teach with a bit of preparation ...Off the top of my head Music ,'technical' subjects like Woodwork and Metalwork and MAYBE Art would be some of the very few subjects Id think you couldnt tackle with a First Year class and a bit of flair as a teacher. ...History,Geography,Maths,English (!),Science, Home Economics etc etc ,sure ANY teacher could take a free class of those and guide a class along purposefully with the bare minimum of prep ...This is not to play down our profession rather to support the OP and numerous others who have been shafted by the TC and their ridiculous and lucrative 'degree ratification' process...


There's a happy medium somewhere between ANYONE with a degree and PGDE/HDip being able to teach ANY subject (ok so that was a 'slightly' tongue in cheek comment )and formulating the most arbitrary ,ridiculous and unsuitable 'requirements' which debar any other those taking the most mainstream of general degrees from getting into teaching .Ive said it before and will say it again if Stephen Hawking applied for a job in an irish school the TC would probably declare him underqualified to teach Science...

clartharlear

Ah now, I didn't mean it in as negative a light as you took it. I didn't mean to relate performance and results, for a start. My dream of the teaching council as a professional body was to provide continual professional development for all. CPD should be a benefit, not a punishment. Like I learned in my Irish class yesterday, "ní h-aon ualach léann".

I love learning, as anyone who loves teaching should. I would rather save up for a developmental master's degree, rather than go back to square minus one. Call me Sisyphus, like.

Stephen Hawking would have to sit the exam in Irish educational history for a start!! :P

PS a degree in engineering does not a male make!

Clár

clartharlear

pathway33 wrote: »

The requirements specifically state on the teaching council website that 'the breadth and depth of the syllabi undertaken are such as to ensure competence to teach Mathemetics to the highest level in post-primary education'

For what little it's worth, the council also reversed its position on my eligibility for teaching applied maths, and that syllabus hasn't changed in our lifetimes!
When I was at the AGM for AM teachers recently, I met other teachers who had also come from engineering backgrounds. Hmm, I wonder if any of those permanently positioned teachers got similar letters.

ytareh

Oops sorry Ms. Clar...

pathway33

clartharlear wrote: »

the council also reversed its position on my eligibility for teaching applied maths

Well then my theory was rubbish and should be ignored. Maybe you should post this question on the 'Soc - Legal Discussion' forum. Find out about contracts and the fact that the teaching council had a contract with you based on your assessed performance.

If there are more of ye out there in this position ye would have a better and cheaper chance of appealing this as a group.

Best of luck.

TheDriver

Union or Solicitor, important and also print out that PDF ASAP so you have it as evidence as they can't go back on something that you did. Also, Applied Maths teachers, most don't have AM qualifications which doesn't makes them any less teachers as most have physics and/ormaths degrees. I was at same AGM and most people would be the same.
TC: In theory sounds good but if they can't even get applications right, never mind tackle underperforming teachers

graduate

This type of thing seems to me to reflect a lot of what is bad about Irish education. There is always comment on the lack of maths teachers, here we have someone with the math skills and a degree that would allow them give the students a flavour for the use of maths and provide an important role model. Yet this bureaucracy is being used against the OP.

Mufflets

Re Teaching Council

ytareh wrote: »

I would love to see ANY TEACHER come here and speak up for the useless quango that is the TC ....Beneath contempt ,dont even get me started.Jobs for the boys and girls paid for by us -one of their ultimate functions may very well be to fire 'underperforming teachers'-unions might be a bit more vociferous if they werent in on the whole sick joke themselves...

You have taken the words right out of my mouth ytareh, im waiting 14 months to be registered as well. I have yet to meet a teacher who has something good to say about this bunch of self serving clerks.

It costs way too much to get registered and you do all the work yourself (apart from the bit the guards do).

they accommodate only themselves i.e. i needed my registration finished quickly recently, that didn't suit them.

they may claim many roles but my experience suggests that helping teachers is not one of them.

there was suggestion at the asti meeting last year in Sutton to call for the abolition of these nusence cowboys. if there is another such vote ill make sure im there with as many more voters as i can muster.

clartharlear

Well, I just got further correspondence from the TC re-stating that even though my degree was there in big bold writing in the main list, I should have known to look at section 18c, paragraph (iv), line 84 in font size 6 “This document should be read in conjunction with the General and Special Requirements for Teachers of Recognised Subjects in Mainstream Post Primary Education. This is to ensure that, irrespective of any modular options you may have taken in your degree studies, you have satisfied all the requirements to teach a particular subject."

I know it's probably an issue for PI, and I won't actually do anything stupid, but I do feel like my life is utterly pointless since my whole self-image was based around my professional identity (already weakened because of job-finding troubles). I'm no use to anyone in this world. There are people out there who do have maths degrees. I should just get rid of myself and let them look for the jobs.

dory

Ah clar please don't be like that.
You can still help people.
You have the Dip. How about sending your CV to every VEC if you haven't done it already?
They, mostly around September I admit, will be looking for people to teach repeat Leaving Cert in plc colleges and I know they don't need a dip.

Offer to give grinds. I give cheap grinds so that I work more often and in the end make more money, and are kept busy. People are always looking for maths grinds.

Can't you just keep applying for jobs anyway? Sure, so many people are working with no dip, surely you can throw your name into the pot too.

I hope it works out for you.

Trotter

I think you must go through the union on this one, and also make a call to the teaching council to explain whats happening.

I think the ASTI would need to help you out in this case.

Many of us who are now permanent teachers in our own right went through a time where we felt the world was conspiring against us to achieve the goal. Hang in there. These are the worst of times and there will be better days than this.

Look for help from wherever you can get it, be that the ASTI or wherever else. Also, make sure to print off the Teaching Council documentation as it stands now.

You will get there.

spurious

You need to get the union to fight this. The TC only exists with their (our) collaboration (and our money). Why the TC exists at all is another question, if they cannot be entrusted with a simple Yes/No decision on a qualification.

What "requirements to teach a particular subject" are they saying you are missing? Are they giving you time to get these requirements?

Do you know how many other people are in the same boat?

clartharlear

Ah sorry. I'm just very upset and probably over-reacting. Some readings of Sisyphus stories describe him as happy.

dory wrote: »

Can't you just keep applying for jobs anyway? Sure, so many people are working with no dip, surely you can throw your name into the pot too.

You're right, dammit. It's just all my life I've been such a "by-the-book" person. I like being part of the proper system! I am getting by right now by giving grinds. I should just accept that I'm going to have to continue 'getting by' rather than 'getting somewhere'. There's a lot worse happens at sea...

Trotter wrote: »

Many of us who are now permanent teachers in our own right went through a time where we felt the world was conspiring against us to achieve the goal. Hang in there. These are the worst of times and there will be better days than this.

This is a perfect expression of how I feel!
A very nice man at ASTI told me that he was on the case.

clartharlear

spurious wrote: »

What "requirements to teach a particular subject" are they saying you are missing? Are they giving you time to get these requirements?

Do you know how many other people are in the same boat?

The thing is, it seems, is that there is a list of approved degrees.
http://www.teachingcouncil.ie/_fileupload/TC_RegCtee/Autoquals_Updated_9thOctober2009_55076717.pdf
My degree is on this list. What the TC are now saying is that list is NOT approved unless the other requirements (30% etc) are met.

But why would they put a degree on the list when it doesn't meet their requirements? This is going to be the point on which I hang. I had understood that "autoqual" meant automatically qualifying, whereas it probably means autobot quality transformer action.

I am now speculating that the degree was initially put on the list by someone recognising that (for example) if someone could build a circuit that could differentiate and integrate then they would probably be mathematically able for teaching LC calculus. But now they see the course code EE instead of AM and reject it.

As for giving me time, they'll take $200 to tell me what hoops they want me to jump through, then I'll spend a whole lot of time and money on those hoops, and then they'll take another $90 off me to attempt to register again next year. Cowboys, Ted, cowboys.
I know there are other people in similar situations, I just don't know them personally.

bean na gaeilge

Clár,
I thought my degree was worth nothing - as I took my degree in Irish and Celtic Civ (first year to complete this degree in Galway). When I contacted the TC at the end of my first year I was told celtic civ followed by a module for History in H Dip would qualify me for History teaching.... How wrong was I to believe that shower. Was told in my Dip year I was only qualified to teach Irish after all. If I had known that at the start I would have stuck with Maths or Latin in my degree..... and now I resent thier €90 fee.... they are such a useless lot. (Sorry for the negativity) - I wish you all the best with the ASTI I really hope they can help you - !

Hillel

ytareh wrote: »

I would love to see ANY TEACHER come here and speak up for the useless quango that is the TC ....Beneath contempt ,dont even get me started.Jobs for the boys and girls paid for by us -one of their ultimate functions may very well be to fire 'underperforming teachers'-unions might be a bit more vociferous if they werent in on the whole sick joke themselves...

Are you seriously suggesting that the issue of under-performing teachers doesn't need to be addressed? Or, are you suggesting that there is no need to enforce teaching standards? Surely not.

clartharlear

Hillel wrote: »

Are you seriously suggesting that the issue of under-performing teachers doesn't need to be addressed? Or, are you suggesting that there is no need to enforce teaching standards? Surely not.

Rabbi, I think the poster is seriously suggesting that the teaching council does not in any way address the issues of teacher performance or teaching standards.

This is what the teaching council is spending our money on - near-sighted pedantic arguments about the small-fonted letter of the rules. They don't care whether or not I'm a good teacher. They don't care how many points or A1s I got in my own school experience. They don't care whether or not I have a honours grade in a highly respected and challenging four year degree course. They don't care whether or not I have industrial experience as a woman in engineering and thus may be more suited to mentoring the young people in my charge than someone who went classroom->lecture hall->class room.
They care that some of my university course codes began with EE instead of MA.

Mufflets

Hillel wrote: »

Are you seriously suggesting that the issue of under-performing teachers doesn't need to be addressed? Or, are you suggesting that there is no need to enforce teaching standards? Surely not.

Cant speak for yterah but im suggesting that the gang of self serving cowboys who call themselves the teaching councill constantly err on the side of laziness. i.e for regestration they only take their hands out of their pockets when all information has been collected for them. it should neither cost nor take as long as it does for them to make a decision.

they do change the rules (maybee to keep themselves busy) and they do really enjoy what they see as their role deciding whether someone is good enough to teach . My registration is being held up by whether or not i had insurance and tax on my car 8 years ago believe it or not,

The fact that i had is immaterial since their own rules only preclude someone from registration with a criminal or some such conviction. I am not joking when i say that they told me that they dont go strictly by the rules but rather look at a persons "full picture" in making their decision, so for me they just throw my file on the pile that says "dont touch work needed" and haven't yet made a decision.

Heres a tip by the way, threaten them with legal action and they stop correspondence with you but they do start getting their asses in gear to resolve issues.

there are roles that need to be fulfilled eg teacher performance etc but not necessarily by this shower and certainly not in the way they go about it.
Ps clare hang in there it can seem like hell when you start teaching first but it does get a lot easier and try not to take things personally experience is everything.

clartharlear

Thanks very much for your words of support.
I was horribly shocked by this thing, but since I last posted here, I've more or less hidden my head in the sand. I am simply at an absolute loss about what to do and I just get dreadfully upset when I think about it.

cartridgegreen

Hi, Just wondering if you had taken this any further or if you pursued further training?

clartharlear

The teaching council changed their mind again.
random, arbitrary, incompetent.
i can't even say the name of that pos organisation without going into apoplectic fits of swearing

looksee

I agree with you abour the TC and you are right to be mad about them putting you through that, but congratulations on getting your registration, and I hope a job works out for you. Good luck.