VO2 max/Heart rate test

silvermints

I've been running for a couple of years now and feel I've reached a plateau. My PB's for 5k, 10k, half marathon etc. are fairly modest and I feel that I need to change my usual training pattern. I've heard that there is a medical/sports test you can take which measures VO2 max, lactic acid, heart rate etc. while running on a treadmill and from this a training plan based on heart rate is provided. Does anyone have any more info on this and if there is anywhere in Dublin that carries out this test?
thanks in advance.

Woddle

http://www.ucd.ie/instituteforsportandhealth/serviceprovision/aerobicendurancetesting/

I've booked into here for the end of the month.

silvermints

Woddle wrote: »

http://www.ucd.ie/instituteforsportandhealth/serviceprovision/aerobicendurancetesting/

I've booked into here for the end of the month.

Thanks for that Woddle. Looks good. Do you think it would be of benefit to a middling runner like myself? My half marathon PB is 1.35, 5k P.B. is 19.49

Woddle

My own 5k pb is 19'25 and like you I want to improve and have my training a bit more specific should help that.

tunney

I'm not a fan of lab testing unless you have something very very specific that you want to find out.

The HR figures are devised in the lab, when you've been instructed to rest the day before and all the rest, in controlled environment. Probably air conditioned. And the test is treated like a race. Also they need to be repeated alot.

Are this HR figures going to be relevant after a few days of training? What about after a few cups of coffee before your evening run? What about after getting feck all sleep for a few days?

Field testing, and constant use of a HRM, and personal education on HR training, IMHO are the best way to train.

That being said when you have something very specific to discover lab testing is excellent. That and if you are an elite athlete with regular access to a lab.

r2k

Hi guys.
The VO2 max will tell you how good your engine is and what horsepower you will put out. For longer endurance sports like running heart rate training based programmes will almost certianly improve overall preformance IMO

TFBubendorfer

In theory I'd be interested in a test like this, but in reality I'm not prepared to spend €110 to tell me something I most likely already know.

Run a 5k, 10k or half marathon and look up the "equivalent" VO2max or LT figure from one of dozens free internet sites. The values might not be exactly where your tested results might be, but in reality they are more relevant than the one from the lab.

The VO2Max figure is an isolated number that won't tell you anything about endurance, fatigue resistance, efficiency, and so on. The figure derived from the race results has all those factored in.

dario28

silvermints wrote: »

Thanks for that Woddle. Looks good. Do you think it would be of benefit to a middling runner like myself? My half marathon PB is 1.35, 5k P.B. is 19.49

Or how about ya give me the 110 euros and I'll get ya sub 90 half marathon fit !!

TheRoadRunner

I agree with most of what Tunney says above. To get the most from the VO2 max test you should get it done at regular intervals. It helps you see improvements etc.

Having said that I think it is it well worth the 110 euro as a once off fitness test in my opinion. Before the test itself you get a quick physical and some blood work done. If you were to go to your doctor for this it probably wouldn't be far off 110 euro. You are also hooked up to heart monitors so if you had an underlying medical problem they may be able to pick it up and refer you to a specialist. All of this and a fitness test is worth the money IMO

Racing Flat

It's 60Euro in Trinity (last time I checked anyhow)

baldykav

If you know how to use the data then get it done. Also is good to get it done before the start of a new training period as levels will move as you progress. Define your thresholds and structure your sessions around them

I go to Bernard in Trinity, cheap and effective. 60 euro the last time I was in.

TheRoadRunner

Racing Flat wrote: »

It's 60Euro in Trinity (last time I checked anyhow)

I don't think it is easy to get an appointment though.

StudentC

Like anything to do with training, there are lots of different opinions about testing!

As somebody said above, the benefit of testing is usually in what you do with the data. Just a test result on it's own isn't always that informative, but using the results to plan your training and gauage your progress is. A good tester will be able to help you do this, and won't just hand you the results and expect you to interpret them yourself.

Well standardised lab testing can be useful for athletes of all standards, not just elites. Although fieldtesting can of course also be useful, it's much harder to standardise, and therefore get reliable results from.

Racing Flat

Personally I found it extremely useful and it lead to a resurgence of PBs after a plateau of 18 months or so. Took about 90secs off my 10mile time (from 61s to just sub 60) after 2 months of training based on the zones prescribed. But this may well have been due to training suboptimally initially.

What I found is that my easy pace slowed down a lot (I had been at 7.30 pace, I dropped to about 8.20 pace when going with the prescribed HR zone) while my tempo pace sped up. My interval session stayed much the same. My weakness was pointed out as being my lactate threshold so the emphasis was placed on these workouts (probably appropriate anyhow as I was training for a 10mile). So I'd recommend it, but it may not be for everyone...

pgibbo

Racing Flat wrote: »

Personally I found it extremely useful and it lead to a resurgence of PBs after a plateau of 18 months or so. Took about 90secs off my 10mile time (from 61s to just sub 60) after 2 months of training based on the zones prescribed. But this may well have been due to training suboptimally initially.

What I found is that my easy pace slowed down a lot (I had been at 7.30 pace, I dropped to about 8.20 pace when going with the prescribed HR zone) while my tempo pace sped up. My interval session stayed much the same. My weakness was pointed out as being my lactate threshold so the emphasis was placed on these workouts (probably appropriate anyhow as I was training for a 10mile). So I'd recommend it, but it may not be for everyone...

Where did you get it done RF?

Does anyone know if there is a difference between the one in UCD and Trinity? Are the tests similar & the results interpreted in a similar manner? Cheers.

tunney

pgibbo wrote: »

Where did you get it done RF?

Does anyone know if there is a difference between the one in UCD and Trinity? Are the tests similar & the results interpreted in a similar manner? Cheers.

does trinity do gas analysis?

jeffontour

tunney wrote: »

does trinity do gas analysis?

Unless something has changed in the past 6 months or so I think the answer is yes.

Racing Flat

pgibbo wrote: »

Where did you get it done RF?

Trinity

tunney wrote: »

does trinity do gas analysis?

Yes

StudentC

pgibbo wrote: »

Where did you get it done RF?

Does anyone know if there is a difference between the one in UCD and Trinity? Are the tests similar & the results interpreted in a similar manner? Cheers.

I'd imagine that the tests would be broadly similar overall, with some protocol differences. The key thing might be the type of report and advice you get.


UCD do a test with two components - initially an incremental (increasing speed) test with 3 minute stages at submaximal speeds, used to determine lactate thresholds. The end point of this test is decided based on your data during it. This is followed by an incremental test of one minute stages until max (either you give up yourself, or the data shows that you have reached your max). The starting speeds for the test are determined based on your own level/training/race times etc etc.

The results from both components contribute to determining zones and designing your training etc.

Iron Enthusiast

Does anyone have the contact details for the Trinity testing?


I must be blind, but i've chekced and can;t seem to find any online? (except one link which then diverts you to a page about Golf-balls? - weird)

Anyway, contact details would be greatly appreciated!

Woddle

Iron Enthusiast wrote: »

Does anyone have the contact details for the Trinity testing?


I must be blind, but i've chekced and can;t seem to find any online? (except one link which then diverts you to a page about Golf-balls? - weird)

Anyway, contact details would be greatly appreciated!

I found this in my log

aero2k wrote: »

TCD also have a human performance lab - contact bernard.donne@tcd.ie. I think DCU have one too, and I'd be amazed if there isn't one in Limerick.
Not to scare you or anything Woddle but I did my tests on the bike - the treadmill has a harness hanging from the ceiling so you don't injure yourself when if you collapse.
They have an enormous fan - presume UCD is the same - but you'll still get very hot, so wear the lightest singlet and shorts you have.

This thread may be of interest:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=61552131

Iron Enthusiast

Thanks for that Woddle!!

Much appreciated!:)

Woddle

Well I had my fitness test today and it went quite well. I had a skinfold test aswell and to my shock horror my scales is obviously wrong as theirs has me at 78.6kg :eek: my height is 175.6 cm and I'll know exactly how fat I am next week
Then it was on to the main event,LT test, a warm up first, then I started running at 10kmph for 3 mins ten got my blood taken, then 11km for 3 mins and then blood taken again, they increased it by a km every 3 mins and I got up to 15km but halfway through that they stopped the test so obviously they could see the tipping point. I was told beforehand that the test would be stopped at some point between 85 and 90% effort. I had a mask on and hated it I found it hard to take deep breaths with it and I also wanted to spit at times but couldn't.
I rested up for a few minutes and had a cup of water before it was time for the VO2 max test, mask was put back on, no blood would be taken. We started at 10km again for a minute and then after every minute the speed was increased by 1kmph, I got up to 17kmph and managed to finish it but then I gave up, I was annoyed because I reckon I had another minute in me.
So I'll be sent the full details next week but for now I've been told that my LT pace is 14kmph which I've worked out to be approx 6:53 per mile and to improve my VO2 max I need to run at paces in or around 5:40 per mile. I was also told that my max HR was 194 (I think, can't remember) which is 11 bpm less than what I've been using, so I'm very eager to get the full results back next week. I've already learned alot today and on top of that I was told I need to lose weight and that I have slightly high blood pressure.
I really enjoyed the test and a big thanks to Romain and Ciara, Romain is a runner himself with a PB in the marathon of 2'37, the only problem is that he's french damn you Henry, I'm still not over it.

Salty Dog

Sounds like you learnt some stuff - would you recommend it ?

Woddle

Salty Dog wrote: »

Sounds like you learnt some stuff - would you recommend it ?

Absolutely but I'll have a better opinion of it next week when I get the analysis sent to me, I'll stick it up here for people to have a look and see what you get for your buck. And as I said before they do offer group discounts, so if there's enough boardsies interested we can arrange sth.

Salty Dog

Woddle wrote: »

Absolutely but I'll have a better opinion of it next week when I get the analysis sent to me, I'll stick it up here for people to have a look and see what you get for your buck. And as I said before they do offer group discounts, so if there's enough boardsies interested we can arrange sth.

Thanks. Interested to see what the analysis info is like.

5:40 is a decent clip

Woddle

Salty Dog wrote: »

Thanks. Interested to see what the analysis info is like.

5:40 is a decent clip

the way I wrote 5:40 is probably misleading, it's 5:40 pace but for 400s

gerard65

Its interesting that your LT etc is very near to the charts in books which estimate these times from your race times. But your max MHR been out by 11secs!!. How did they measure this?

gdogg09

Woddle wrote: »

Well I had my fitness test today and it went quite well. I had a skinfold test aswell and to my shock horror my scales is obviously wrong as theirs has me at 78.6kg :eek: my height is 175.6 cm and I'll know exactly how fat I am next week
Then it was on to the main event,LT test, a warm up first, then I started running at 10kmph for 3 mins ten got my blood taken, then 11km for 3 mins and then blood taken again, they increased it by a km every 3 mins and I got up to 15km but halfway through that they stopped the test so obviously they could see the tipping point. I was told beforehand that the test would be stopped at some point between 85 and 90% effort. I had a mask on and hated it I found it hard to take deep breaths with it and I also wanted to spit at times but couldn't.
I rested up for a few minutes and had a cup of water before it was time for the VO2 max test, mask was put back on, no blood would be taken. We started at 10km again for a minute and then after every minute the speed was increased by 1kmph, I got up to 17kmph and managed to finish it but then I gave up, I was annoyed because I reckon I had another minute in me.
So I'll be sent the full details next week but for now I've been told that my LT pace is 14kmph which I've worked out to be approx 6:53 per mile and to improve my VO2 max I need to run at paces in or around 5:40 per mile. I was also told that my max HR was 194 (I think, can't remember) which is 11 bpm less than what I've been using, so I'm very eager to get the full results back next week. I've already learned alot today and on top of that I was told I need to lose weight and that I have slightly high blood pressure.
I really enjoyed the test and a big thanks to Romain and Ciara, Romain is a runner himself with a PB in the marathon of 2'37, the only problem is that he's french damn you Henry, I'm still not over it.

Good work Woddle. Did you do it in Trinity and get in touch with the Bernard Donne?

Woddle

gerard65 wrote: »

Its interesting that your LT etc is very near to the charts in books which estimate these times from your race times. But your max MHR been out by 11secs!!. How did they measure this?

Hi Gerard65, it's out by 11 beats because I kind of did the last part wrong. I had to stay on the treadmill for a minute at each kmph and when I got to 17kmph I just wanted to finish that but I didn't want to be moved up to 18, so they counted down 5,4,3,2,1 to say I had finished my 1 minute at 17kmph but after the countdown I just jumped off but in fact I should have kept going. So they have a max of 192 0r 194 can't remember but I reckon it would have gone higher, I had previously based my maxHR on my garmin data which has given me highs of 203 and 205. The max I achieved today I've actually gone beyond on numerous occasions. I'll be doing the test again in mid February and I'll know what to expect, it was a bit of nerves and lack of concentration kicking in.

Racing Flat

Good stuff Woddle. My experience with these is that they'll give you different HR ranges at which to work off for easy runs, LT runs and VO2 max work. So at your point of VO2 max your speed corresponded to 5.40 yesterday, but when givving you a training programme they'll look at the HR at that same point. So say it was 183, they might tell you to be at about 180-185 for intervals. The problem with this is when doing an interval, for the first 200m or maybe more you'll be way below that, so it might be more based on perceived effort or indeed pace. So at 183bpm you might manage 400s in 85secs, but at the same HR, you might be at 88s for 800s and 90s for 1000s. Using the HR is handy too because if it is windy, or hilly, you'll go at a slower pace for the same effort - if working of pace you might go too hard in bad conditions trying to hit that pace. Similarly, your LT pace of 6.50 odd, they might give you a HR range to correspond with that, rather than working off pace.

Whenever I did the test, max Hr was never used - just pace and HR at LT and at VO2max and during easy running (before the graph started to curve). The max Hr they got for you is obviously just the max HR recorded during the test. If you were in a race you might go at 20kph for the last 10secs and get a higher reading. Also I woldn't trust max readings given off HRMs in training in that - again, my experience is a lot of skewing with these data. And as has been said on here before, using HR data based on generic info rather than a proper test like this isn't all that useful IMO.

Best of luvk with the training plan, I'd say it'll suit you.

Racing Flat

Resurrecting an old post....


When you go to the lab, they will put you on the treadmill and start to monitor your heart rate and blood lactate levels. This will tend to be fairly stable at rest and will rise marginally once you start exercising at a comfortable level, but then stable out once again. They increase the speed a little every so often. Once the speed starts to get a little uncomfortable the lactate levels will rise more significantly, and then at a certain point, it will rise massively and fairly suddenly. IIRC the point where it rises massively is the lactate turnpoint.

As they will have graphed this, and recorded your heart rates at each time point on the same graph, you can see what your heart rate was at this turnpoint. If you train as close as possible to this heart rate you will be at your lactate threshold and so may improve your ability and capacity at this point, so that the graph will 'move to the right' i.e. you will soon be able to run faster before the lactate levels rise rapidly. If you train faster than the lactate threshold the effects of lactic acid will limit performance - ie you won't be able to keep doing it for too long as it's more 'anaerobic', so getting as close as possible is the key for improving your lactate threshold, the key indicator for marathon performance.

In terms of calculating your easy run heart rate, they will just look at the graph to see what your heart rate was when the latate levels were stable and before they started to rise in any way significantly. So they won't work this out from your HR at LT but rather from your HR at comfortable running pace/lactate levels.

Finally speed session HRs will be based on HRs higher than that at the lactate turnpoint.

As an example, on one of my tests:

HR max = 193 (but they did not use this info)
Velocity @ LT = 15.9kph
HR @ LT = 182
%VO2max @ LT = 81%
%HRmax @ LT = 94%
lactate @ LT = 2.6mmol/L
velocity @ 2mmol/L = 15.3kph
HR @ 2mmol/L = 180
lactate @ 160bpm = 0.9mmol/L
velocity @ 160bpm = 12.3kph

Based on this, the following HR zones were prescribed (for hard weeks):
easy - 150-160 (occasionally 165)
tempo/LT runs - 175-180
speed - >185

As a matter of interest, if I had used the often described zones of 70-80% of 220-age for my easy runs and 80-90% of 220-age for my LT runs, I'd have been at 132-150 and 150-170 respectively...My max HR was higher than 220-age and my LT occured at 94% rather than 90% max HR (which means I'm uneconomical I think ) so the generic zones would have had me training too easy.

Also, when I went for this test, I told the testers that I'd been stuck around 61-62mins for 10miles for about 2 years and I wanted to run sub 60. The tester said that if everything went really well, if I picked a good course, a dry day and the wind was at my back I might just about mangae it if I really dug in. He got me doing a lot more LT running (this was very tough compared to what I was used to, not really the speed, but the frequency and duration) and 10 weeks later I ran 60.01 - or I'm not sure...

A few months later I went for another test (telling them I wanted to run 2.59..., they must love me ):

HRmax = 189 (lower - am I older??? I think I just didn't push myself as much, knowledge of the test this time and knowing the'd got all the info they needed...)
velocity @ LT = 16.2kph (yes! I'm faster at LT, this implies faster at 10mile, half marathon, marathon etc.)
HR @ LT = 178
%HRmax @ LT= 94%
lactate @ LT = 2.2mmol/L
velocity @2mmol/L = 15.9kph
HR @2mmol/L = 176
lactate @ 160bpm = 1.1mmol/L
velocity @ 160bpm = 13.1kph

So new prescribed training zones...
easy 145-150
LT 170-175
speed >180

The key zone tbh is the LT one - you can see that it is a little lower than my HR at the actual LT during the test. I generally need the monitor to let me know when I am in this zone - otherwise I'd probably just start the session too fast and slow down fairly quickly and so not train hard enough for that session. For easy runs, just running naturally comfortably tends to have me close enough to the easy zone - I wouldn't need a monitor for that. For speed sessions - as they are very hard anyhow, the HR gets up appropriately, I wouldn't need the monitor to tell me this.

I had been at a plateau across the distances for about 2 years, ie didn't really set any pbs between mid 2006 (3rd year running) and early 2008. Since getting tested then and training according to these zones, omitting cross country, I have ran about 12 races and gotten 10pbs. The 2 non pbs are explined by one race being after a 4 week break from running and one where I was running up to my knees in water. So I'd be a big fan of training in the correct heart rate zones, but only if you know your individual correct zones from proper testing. You'd be better working off effort or race times than generic zones/estimations IMO.


from http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055456854&highlight=heart+rate+zones&page=2

Woddle

So I got my report back today, I've taken a few things out and left what I think is important in

Maximum oxygen uptake (VO2max):
. When expressed relative to your body weight your VO2max is 57
mlO2.kg-1.min-1. This value is excellent compared to untrained individuals of the same
age (3).
As VO2max is a good predictor of endurance performance and aerobic fitness, any
increase in this variable would likely enhance your performance. In order to improve
your VO2max you should consider eliciting VO2max during short term (~ 30 to 60 sec.)
speed sessions (running at 17 km.h-1 or 190+ beats per min. in your case). On the
other hand, since your VO2max is already high it is likely that any improvement in
aerobic fitness will be mainly represented by a significant shift towards higher speeds
in your lactate threshold and turnpoint and/or your running economy rather than a
great increase in VO2max.

Lactate threshold:
Blood lactate concentration ([La]) changes during VO2max tests is a measure
commonly used to set training intensities and monitor improvements 2.
In this report, lactate threshold is defined as a 1mmol.L-1 increase in [La] above the
value measured at rest. In your case, lactate threshold occurred at 11 km.h-1 (158-162
beats per min.). Lactate threshold is the transition between easy- to moderate-intensity
running exercises. In other words, it is the pace that you can sustain for a longduration
exercise. Exercising at this intensity constitutes the basis of your training
plan; it is often used as a recovery session (e.g, recovery between hard work-out at the
gym or high intensity running sessions). This is a pace that you should train at (or
slightly below) as a recovery session.

Lactate turnpoint:
Lactate turnpoint is defined as the second further increase or discontinuity in [La]
profile. This turnpoint generally occurs at about 4 mmol.L-1. In your case, your lactate
turnpoint has been observed at 14 km.h-1 (180-183 beats per min.).
Lastly, your [La] reached a maximum of 14.3 mmol.L-1, post-maximal test.
At your lactate turnpoint pace, you reach a non-steady state, corresponding to the
heavy-intensity domain. At this pace, an anaerobiosis takes place (i.e., a mismatch
between the oxygen demand and supply) leading to a metabolic acidosis (decrease in
pH, sub-products accumulation). At this point, in response to an increase in blood
lactate concentration, a pulmonary ventilation increase occurs to neutralise the
accumulated lactate (i.e., respiratory compensation for metabolic acidosis) (4).
Training at this intensity is helpful to: (i) develop your ability to sustain a high
percentage of VO2max (endurance concept), (ii) provoke a shift of your lactate
turnpoint corresponding working intensity to higher values and (iii) enable your body
to buffer (neutralise) the accumulated lactate and tolerate a higher metabolic acidosis.
In other words, it will be easier (not easy) for you to maintain your race pace.
In general, the lactate threshold and turnpoint paces match or are very close to the
aerobic and anaerobic threshold paces.

Training zones
Intensities Heart rate (Bpm) Running speed (Km.h-1)
Easy < 154 10
Steady 158-162 11
Heavy 180-183 14
Maximal 190+ 17
Intensities Heart rate (Bpm) Pace (Min per km)
Easy < 154 6’
Steady 158-162 5’27’’
Heavy 180-183 4’17’’
Maximal 190+ 3’32’’
Intensities Heart rate (Bpm) Pace (Min per mile)
Easy < 154 9’37’’
Steady 158-162 8’43’’
Heavy 180-183 6’51’’
Maximal 190+ 5’39’’
Institute for Sport and Health

Table 1. Physical and Physiological data
Age (y) 30
Weight (kg) 78.6
Height (cm) 175
O V &
2max (mlO2.kg-1.min-1) 57
Running speed at L threshold (km.h-1) 11
Heart rate at L threshold (beats.min-1) 158-162
Running speed at L turnpoint (km.h-1) 14
Heart rate at L turnpoint (beats.min-1) 180-183

Take home message.
_ Always listen to what your body says (e.g., “how do you respond to a new
type of exercise or a new way of training”).
_ Planning your training will avoid training “hard” everyday pushing the body
beyond its ability to adapt and leading to overtraining.
_ You should consider high intensity training, short 30-40 sec. runs and also
tempo training (training at lactate turnpoint pace) to develop your ability to
sustain a high percentage of VO2max (see Wednesday and Sunday sessions).
_ Since VO2max is affected by body composition (i.e., body fat and muscle mass),
you should consider decreasing your body fat.

Woddle

The only thing I don't agree with is the easy paces
158-162 bpm would equate to about 8 minute pace for me.
Other than that I'm quite happy with the information I've got back, I've got real figures regarding my heart rate which I can work off and I can now start targeting my lactate turnpoint.

Also I'm carrying too much weight, I am in fact 12 stone 5 lbs and at 5ft 9 thats just too much weight to be carrying around. I had thought I was down to 11 stone 11 but my scale obviously is not accurate, the wife will go nuts if I tell her

menoscemo

Woddle wrote: »

_ Since VO2max is affected by body composition (i.e., body fat and muscle mass),
you should consider decreasing your body fat.

:rolleyes: I Like this part. As if we all don't already consider this, and 'considering' just doesn't seem to be enough to get the jog done

uberwolf

quick question on this. I did a series of these as a cyclist, found the zones invaluable, and the benefit of having benchmarks great.

What I'm not sure of though, is doing one of these as a relatively unfit body with aspirations and a real understanding of HRM based training from another life, pointless? I know they frequently test unfit people as part of student theses so I might drop Bernard a line from the past!

/just dug up my last test results VO2 Max > 70mL.Kg. ugh. Those were the days