Guinness employees in WW1

johnny_doyle

Is there anyone else on this board who had a relative working at Guinness who enlisted in WW1? Did they survive and return to work at Guinness or were they one of the many who didn't survive the war? Is there any story to go with their service?

According to the Guinness Roll over 800 enlisted; over 100 died.

My Gt Grandfather Joseph Niland was a cooper at Guinness before "Enlisting in Kitchener's Army" in 1915, aged 41. He was in 179 Tunnelling Company, Royal Engineers until his death in March 1917. According to the unit War Diary, 2 German shells landed on his section during a pay parade.

His unit exploded the mines that "kicked off" the Somme on 1st July 1916 (Lochnagar and Y Sap). It was also the unit to which Dorothy Lawrence attached herself.

Morlar

Those are fascinating documents. I like the way the the 'cause of' is given as 'Enlisted in Kitcheners' Army'. I would be interested in seeing higher quality scans of those if you have them.

I was at this event recently and acc to Mr Myers Guinness' were one of the few employers in Ireland who gave preference to ex servicemen whereas there were 6 counties in Ireland which forbade employment in any council jobs to ex servicemen, they also forbade giving scholarhips to their children too.

dubtom

Got to love the brewery for their records, not even a half day off would go undocumented. My Grandfather joined the brewery when he returned from the war,they looked favorably on ex service men, where usually you had to have a relative working for them to get in. One thing that did confuse me when I got to see my Grandfathers records,and they covered everything from the day he started until retirement, was that he had enlisted in the army under my Great Grandmother's maiden name, and soon after he joined the brewery had to show his birth cert to change it back to his 'real' name. I'm at a loss as to why he did this,perhaps the political climate at the time,or perhaps the family didn't approve of his joining for fear of reprisals if the local republicans found out,I'm just guessing here,it is a puzzle.

johnny_doyle

Morlar wrote: »

Those are fascinating documents. I like the way the the 'cause of' is given as 'Enlisted in Kitcheners' Army'. I would be interested in seeing higher quality scans of those if you have them.

I was at this event recently and acc to Mr Myers Guinness' were one of the few employers in Ireland who gave preference to ex servicemen whereas there were 6 counties in Ireland which forbade employment in any council jobs to ex servicemen, they also forbade giving scholarhips to their children too.

I have higher quality scans of the documents available. What's the best way to get them to you? I don't think boards will allow large filesizes.

johnny_doyle

dubtom wrote: »

Got to love the brewery for their records, not even a half day off would go undocumented. My Grandfather joined the brewery when he returned from the war,they looked favorably on ex service men, where usually you had to have a relative working for them to get in. One thing that did confuse me when I got to see my Grandfathers records,and they covered everything from the day he started until retirement, was that he had enlisted in the army under my Great Grandmother's maiden name, and soon after he joined the brewery had to show his birth cert to change it back to his 'real' name. I'm at a loss as to why he did this,perhaps the political climate at the time,or perhaps the family didn't approve of his joining for fear of reprisals if the local republicans found out,I'm just guessing here,it is a puzzle.

did you take a trip in to see the archivist at Guinness? One of the most helpful people I've met.

Does sound a bit odd using the maiden name to enlist. From seeing records on Ancestry, there certainly seemed to be quite a few people enlisting under aliases and then having their real name put against their records.

The brewery gave jobs to my gt grandfather's 2 sons in the 1930's. One was there until his death in 1966.

arnhem44

Wasn't Gay Byrne's father working there after the war?

johnny_doyle

his father and brother worked there :

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/obituaries/2009/1024/1224257388755.html

I believe his father worked on the Guinness barges.

dubtom

As did my Grandfather.

arnhem44

thanks for the replies lads,I just pulled this off Wiki regarding Byrne's father


Edward Byrne joined the Irish volunteers in 1912I][URL="http://www.boards.ie/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed"][COLOR=#0066cc]citation needed[/COLOR][/URL][/I, and subsequently joined the 19th Hussars, Infantry Division, when World War I (1914-1918) broke out. He later fought during the Irish War of Independence. He fought throughout most of the War, including at O'Connell Street. [6] Shortly after the War, Edward Byrne was employed by Guinness' St. James's Gate Brewery where he worked for most of the rest of his life. He worked on the barges that operated on the river Liffey, transporting wooden casks from St. James's Gate Brewery to ships at the North Wall, Dublin.[7] Edward Byrne was the son of Alexander Byrne, a coachman to the Earl of Meath, who lived at a lodge on the Earl's estate near Kilruddery, County Wicklow. [6]
Byrne's father, Edward, married his mother, Annie Carroll (from Bray), at Belfast, in 1917, when briefly home on leave from the War. The two had met near Bray just before the War began


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johnny_doyle

arnhem44 wrote: »

thanks for the replies lads,I just pulled this off Wiki regarding Byrne's father


Edward Byrne joined the Irish volunteers in 1912I][URL="http://www.boards.ie/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed"][COLOR=#0066cc]citation needed[/COLOR][/URL][/I, and subsequently joined the 19th Hussars, Infantry Division, when World War I (1914-1918) broke out. He later fought during the Irish War of Independence. He fought throughout most of the War, including at O'Connell Street. [6] Shortly after the War, Edward Byrne was employed by Guinness' St. James's Gate Brewery where he worked for most of the rest of his life. He worked on the barges that operated on the river Liffey, transporting wooden casks from St. James's Gate Brewery to ships at the North Wall, Dublin.[7] Edward Byrne was the son of Alexander Byrne, a coachman to the Earl of Meath, who lived at a lodge on the Earl's estate near Kilruddery, County Wicklow. [6]
Byrne's father, Edward, married his mother, Annie Carroll (from Bray), at Belfast, in 1917, when briefly home on leave from the War. The two had met near Bray just before the War began


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elsewhere Edward Byrne is shown as joining the Irish Guards in 1912. His medal card just lists him in the 19th Hussars and his award of the 1914 Star, the BWM and the VM. No sign of a service or pension record on Ancestry. The fact that he was one of the first into France in 1914 and getting the 1914 Star makes me think he was a regular soldier before WW1 ie in the Irish Guards (though that doesn't discount him being in the Volunteers too).

In the 1911 census he's living in Wicklow with his parents and two brothers; listed as an Agricultural Labourer. No sign of him in the Guinness Roll of Employees so he would appear to have joined Guinness after WW1.

arnhem44

johnny_doyle wrote: »

elsewhere Edward Byrne is shown as joining the Irish Guards in 1912. His medal card just lists him in the 19th Hussars and his award of the 1914 Star, the BWM and the VM. No sign of a service or pension record on Ancestry. The fact that he was one of the first into France in 1914 and getting the 1914 Star makes me think he was a regular soldier before WW1 ie in the Irish Guards (though that doesn't discount him being in the Volunteers too).

In the 1911 census he's living in Wicklow with his parents and two brothers; listed as an Agricultural Labourer. No sign of him in the Guinness Roll of Employees so he would appear to have joined Guinness after WW1.

That's interesting,a bit of conflicting info there,I think Wiki should be taken with a pinch of salt sometimes,regarding Guinness,800 enlisted from Guinness and over 100 died,correct?,does anyone know how many ex-servicemen went to work there after the war who were Guinness employees previously and how many ex-servicemen went to work there in all?

McArmalite

Can anyone tell me, did ex memebers of the Irish forces get preferential treatment in Guinness's 1922 - or was it just exclusively for ex memebers of HM Forces ?

johnny_doyle

McArmalite wrote: »

Can anyone tell me, did ex memebers of the Irish forces get preferential treatment in Guinness's 1922 - or was it just exclusively for ex memebers of HM Forces ?

Hard to say but both Edward Byrne and Martin Doyle VC MM were BA and then IRA (and in the case of Martin Doyle later Free State Army) before Guinness employed them.

Snickers Man

According to Gaybo's autobiography "The Time of My Life" his father and several of his uncles joined the army, served throughout world war one and all returned home uninjured, or at least physically uninjured.

His father would frequently suffer terrifying attacks for the rest of his life when he would wake up screaming and shaking uncontrollably. Byrne reckoned it was a form of epilepsy but some sort of post traumatic stress disorder could not be ruled out.

He says his dad started work in Guinness after the war and that Guinnes had a policy of recruiting WWI veterans, to the extent that the jobs were known locally in Dublin as Jobs Fit for Heroes, a play on the election promise of the Liberals to make " A land fit for heroes". One that they were unable to keep of course.

Familyties

Edward Byrne was my Grandfather's bother. My Grandfather was Patrick
Byrne. He also joined the army.. When he left the army he worked for Lord
Meath and he and his family lived in the lodge at Phoenix park Castleknock.

He married my grandmother Catherine Whiston from Bray.
They had 4 children twin boys (sadly one of the twins dies at age 1 year)
The children were Jim, Alex and Mary (my mother)
Does anyone have any information on the Whiiston family. I believe
My Grandmother Catherine Whiston had 2 brothers Adam and James and
a sister.
Her father was James and I believe her mother was Mary? There were
Dairy farmers.

johnny_doyle

Guinness now have an online facility for searching for family members

http://www.guinness-storehouse.com/en/GenealogySearch.aspx

JemWhsky

My grandad Christopher Kit Martin returned from the war and worked in the brewery,not sure if he worked there before the war.But he was given a house in Park Villas Castleknock,which were built for returning soldiers.

johnny_doyle

Jem, do you know which unit he served with, age, name of spouse?

RIRI

But I thought the OP might like to see his Gt Grandfather's handywork Lochnagar Crater, The Somme, July 2011

johnny_doyle

RIRI wrote: »

But I thought the OP might like to see his Gt Grandfather's handywork Lochnagar Crater, The Somme, July 2011

nice pic. The Friends of Lochnagar maintain a website at

http://www.lochnagarcrater.org/

The La Boiselle Project team are currently excavating some of the tunnels

http://www.laboisselleproject.com/

spurious

If the OP would like a photo of Mr. Niland's grave, the War Graves Photographic Project, which is run by volunteers, has one in its archive, which they will send on a high-res version of at a very low cost.

Joseph Niland

If anyone would like to help the project by photographing some graves or memorials, please contact them.

johnny_doyle

ta. I already have a photo of Joe Niland's gravestone

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=niland&GSfn=Joseph&GSbyrel=all&GSdyrel=all&GSob=n&GRid=12481935&df=all&

JemWhsky

johnny_doyle wrote: »

Jem, do you know which unit he served with, age, name of spouse?

Hi Johnny just seen your message, he was born in 1893 in Donaghmore Meath. His wife was Bridget Kinsella Martin.I dont know what unit he was with sadly.But he was damaged by gas and may have fought at the Somme, according to one family member.Appreciate any help mate,Cheers.

johnny_doyle

this Christopher Martin appears to be the best match on the Guinness archives website

http://www.guinness-storehouse.com/en/GenealogySearchDetails.aspx?eid=16551

but he joined Guinness post WW1 so no mention in the Guinness Employees Roll to say which unit he served with. The wife is named as Margaret rather than Bridget. A tree on Ancestry has the wife as Margaret Kinsella (marriage 1920 Balrothery), The tree ties in with this census record

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Meath/Donaghmore/Donaghmore/714893/


No surviving service or pension record matches the details we have for him unfortunately.

Any chance there might be some medals for him in the family somewhere? These would have a unit and number.

JemWhsky

Many thanks Johnny,appreciate that.

johnny_doyle

a new BBC production re WW1 featuring Guinness

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01p33l4?page=2

JemWhsky

Cheers for that Johnny.