100% of Worlds Power by Renewables?

Grudaire

Did anyone see this article in the scientific American?

Some very interesting concepts in it. Just some things that came to mind:

• The increased efficiency of electricity isn't often mentioned (eg in car engines)
• Is reliability sufficiently taken into account?
• Why can't it done?

See draft of research that article is based one here

Heroditas

Well of course the required power can be met from renewables.
Harnessing it is the problem though.

From the article:

• The cost of generating and transmitting power would be less than the projected cost per kilowatt-hour for fossil-fuel and nuclear power.
• Shortages of a few specialty materials, along with lack of political will, loom as the greatest obstacles.

All well and good but how much would it cost to build 3.6m wind turbines along with all the other sources mentioned? The cost would be phenomenal.

In theory it's sound but in practical terms, it's very difficult. The author is a bit disingenuous by saying there's a lack of political will. Imagine if politicians here said we'd build all of the above but in the meantime they'd have to double the energy costs to pay for it?! There'd be bedlam.

Grudaire

Heroditas wrote: »

In theory it's sound but in practical terms, it's very difficult. The author is a bit disingenuous by saying there's a lack of political will. Imagine if politicians here said we'd build all of the above but in the meantime they'd have to double the energy costs to pay for it?! There'd be bedlam.

But, in the meantime countless non-renewable plants will have to be built. Should the money not be better used on projects like this?

I don't see it as a likelihood that this will happen, however I don't see why it can't be aimed at. And ambitious targets are the way to go! Achieving 50% of 10TW > achieving 85% of 5TW

Heroditas

Cliste wrote: »

But, in the meantime countless non-renewable plants will have to be built. Should the money not be better used on projects like this?

Not unless they're cost effective. However, if research institutions wish to invest time and money in them, they're more than welcome to.
I feel very strongly against any sort of industry being heavily subsidized so renewable technology shouldn't be exempt from this, what could be deemed harsh, point of view.

Cliste wrote: »

I don't see it as a likelihood that this will happen, however I don't see why it can't be aimed at. And ambitious targets are the way to go! Achieving 50% of 10TW > achieving 85% of 5TW

I definitely agree with this sentiment though!

Grudaire

Heroditas wrote: »

Not unless they're cost effective. However, if research institutions wish to invest time and money in them, they're more than welcome to.
I feel very strongly against any sort of industry being heavily subsidized so renewable technology shouldn't be exempt from this, what could be deemed harsh, point of view.

Without wanting to get this dragged into another wind thread, isn't wind energy cheaper to generate? (At least at decent windspeeds). And isn't it Eirgrid's aim to have 40% Wind power by 2020 anyway? (source)

You wouldn't happen to have the average cost per kW/H for the different types of generation handy (It's eluding me on google!)

Heroditas

Cliste wrote: »

Without wanting to get this dragged into another wind thread, isn't wind energy cheaper to generate? (At least at decent windspeeds). And isn't it Eirgrid's aim to have 40% Wind power by 2020 anyway? (source)

Oops, you just have!

The problem is the cost of building the wind farms - it costs approximately €1.8m to build a 2MW turbine and connect it to the grid.
After that, you have maintenance costs.
However, it's only generating power approximately 28% of the time.
So, comparing it to a 750MW power station, the turbines cost a bit more and you still need the back-up generation.

Cliste wrote: »

You wouldn't happen to have the average cost per kW/H for the different types of generation handy (It's eluding me on google!)

You won't find prices like that very handily on Google.
However, I'll see if I can dig up MWh prices tomorrow.

Grudaire

Heroditas wrote: »

Oops, you just have!

The problem is the cost of building the wind farms - it costs approximately €1.8m to build a 2MW turbine and connect it to the grid.
After that, you have maintenance costs.
However, it's only generating power approximately 28% of the time.
So, comparing it to a 750MW power station, the turbines cost a bit more and you still need the back-up generation.

Oh No!

Well I know that this feasibility study is for worldwide generation. I'm not 100% how it deals with smaller countries like Ireland - presumably massive interconnectors are part of the deal!

So negate back up generation for a minute! Now day to day maintenance of a windmill is surely cheaper than maintenance of a power station + fuel costs!

Heroditas wrote: »

You won't find prices like that very handily on Google.
However, I'll see if I can dig up MWh prices tomorrow.

Thanks!

Capt'n Midnight

Heroditas wrote: »

However, it's only generating power approximately 28% of the time.
So, comparing it to a 750MW power station, the turbines cost a bit more and you still need the back-up generation.

LOL

In the UK there used to be a gas turbine power station that had two functions, it was a last resort backup , other than that it was only used on Wednesdays evening. Instead of being used 28% of the time, it was only used to cope with a five minute surge from all the kettles being put on after Coronation Street. Nowadays this sort of thing (Eastenders) is handled by 600MW from the French interconnector and the Welsh pumped storage station.

28% is more than most hydroelectric plants are run for

If we had better ways of storing energy then this would not be an issue.

IIRC the energy payback time for a large wind turbine is about 3 months , if you can use all the energy it produces.



And has anyone got any figures on how much our Kyoto fine will be, as this has to be factored in to fuel costs too.

Capt'n Midnight

Interesting idea for sunnier climes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_roadway
zero extra land usage


If someone finds the map with the solar panel areas to power the world please post it up
it means you could power the EU with panels covering a small area of a saharan country

Heroditas

Cliste wrote: »

Thanks!

Coal €2.2/GJ
Distillate €11.08/GJ
Heavy Fuel Oil €5.35/GJ
Gas €5.82/GJ
Peat €3.4/GJ

Grudaire

Heroditas wrote: »

Coal €2.2/GJ
Distillate €11.08/GJ
Heavy Fuel Oil €5.35/GJ
Gas €5.82/GJ
Peat €3.4/GJ

And any for the renewables?

Heroditas

Cliste wrote: »

And any for the renewables?

Good grief! You're very demanding! :P

Leave it with me. I'll try and dig those up too.

cnocbui

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

If someone finds the map with the solar panel areas to power the world please post it up
it means you could power the EU with panels covering a small area of a saharan country

Not quite a map, but....



Might as well have the rest: