If only they had a Tazer, warning Graphic Video

Turner · 13-11-2009 3:32pm #1

Filmed in Minsk Russia. Mentally unstable man attacking Police with what appears are 2 knives.

I have experienced this on a few occasions now in work and we had no armed cover. We basically had to rush and overpower the people in question and this was before Asp's and OC spray.

Luckilly i never got seriously injured but many Gardai have.

The Russian police in the video show great restraint only shooting him in the legs, but the man does come out of it seriously injured, it is unclear at the end if he is dead or not.

Had they had tazers or OC spray (or any less lethal weapons) im certain it would have been resolved a little easier and with less injury to the man.

Warning - Graphic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXd_L9vR4R8

BravoMike · 13-11-2009 3:59pm

I suppose they did the best they could at the time with the epuipment they had. In all fairness you wouldn't know if he was dead/unconcious through the loss of blood or the repeated blows to the head.

Trojan911 · 13-11-2009 4:29pm

Very mickey mouse.

1. Discharging their firearms to shoot the legs in an area which was full of public.

2. Where were the cordons?

3. Traffic still flowing.

4. Left him lying prone after when he should have been place in the recovery position.

5. No apparent first aid after cuffing.

Yes, tazer or OC may have been a more kinder option but as it wasn't available then they should have shot him in the major organs if he was posing such a threat.

donvito99 · 13-11-2009 4:45pm

I don't think I can trust Russian Police with guns and batons let alone tazers and spray.

Why do they insist on beating him after he's been shot in the legs?

Turner · 13-11-2009 4:54pm

donvito99 wrote: »

I don't think I can trust Russian Police with guns and batons let alone tazers and spray.

Why do they insist on beating him after he's been shot in the legs?

I think to make him release the knives from his hands.

Its not nice but is necessary in such a dangerous situation. Pain makes people release their grip on weapons.

13-11-2009 5:24pm

Trojan911 wrote: »

Very mickey mouse.

1. Discharging their firearms to shoot the legs in an area which was full of public.

2. Where were the cordons?

3. Traffic still flowing.

4. Left him lying prone after when he should have been place in the recovery position.

5. No apparent first aid after cuffing.

Yes, tazer or OC may have been a more kinder option but as it wasn't available then they should have shot him in the major organs if he was posing such a threat.

It's not the Met we are watching but the Russian Police. They obviously have different ways of handling situations over there. We've all heard stories about how they treat prisoners.

Trojan911 · 13-11-2009 5:38pm

foreign wrote: »

We've all heard stories about how they treat prisoners.

That's why I'm surprised they didn't shoot him outright from the beginning.

coach23 · 13-11-2009 5:54pm

Trojan911 wrote: »

Very mickey mouse.

1. Discharging their firearms to shoot the legs in an area which was full of public.

2. Where were the cordons?

3. Traffic still flowing.

4. Left him lying prone after when he should have been place in the recovery position.

5. No apparent first aid after cuffing.

Yes, tazer or OC may have been a more kinder option but as it wasn't available then they should have shot him in the major organs if he was posing such a threat.

I'm confused what way would you have done it trojan? you seem to be more concerned with the crazy man trying to satb the police rather than showing concern for the police he was trying to stab!

the police were rightly concerned with the threat to the public and their colleagues if not they wouldn't have (a). stopped ot sort the problem out and (b). rushed to the aid of their colleagues as you would do if you had ever been a police officer if you were would understand this. cordons come after the situation has been contained and enough members are at scene to do so you dont leave the man with the knife attacking members to stop traffic you have to prioritise

as for shooting the man in the legs in public this is contradictory to your supposed concern for the mans welfare, your comment about this would lead me to believe that he should be shot in the head but your later comments seem to suggest that he shouldn't shot at all, and also we operate in the public domain you cant not shoot because you're in a public place the safety of the officer in this situation is paramount as they are being attacked by a lunatic with 2 knives dont see any members of the public trying to stop the guy thats why people need us becuase we will do it not just talk about it or criticise those who do it from an armchair.

if you were in the service now or at any other time you wouldnt criticise the officers they took alot of time and put themselves at huge risk before shooting the guy alot of forces would have fired alot earlier

Zambia · 13-11-2009 9:11pm

I would say trojan has it pretty much spot on. Shooting people in the legs if better left for movies.

Once shot , down,weapons cleared and cuffed then first aid , suspect care comes into play.

Shooting in a public place is a judgement call, here there is a real and present threat to public by leaving a man with 2 knives on a bender.

Trojan911 · 13-11-2009 10:52pm

coach23 wrote: »

I'm confused what way would you have done it trojan?

I repeat....

Trojan911 wrote:

they should have shot him in the major organs if he was posing such a threat.

coach23 wrote: »

if you had ever been a police officer if you were would understand this.

I was. Eleven years Met Police.

As Zambia correctly points out, shooting legs is for the movies. The OP correctly points out that Tazer or OC may have been better, I agree, however, it was not the case.

If you cannot contain the threat, which they clearly couldn't in this serious life threatening scenario, then put him down by shooting the major organs (chest area). Isolate the danger, the perp is down, the public are safe, now apply medical aid until the arrival of the Ambulance Service/Paramedics etc.

Don't ponce about aiming to shoot for legs and then beating him about the body with batons. When bullets hit solid ground they ricochet/fragment. Several shots appear to have been fired and beatings with batons are also seen and the perp is still running around. One of the tyres is flat on a squad car.

But then again as another poster pointed out.... It is Russia were are talking about here. It appears their training may differ from UK police forces & probably AGS also.

Your post does appear confused. Hope this clears a few things up.

bravestar · 14-11-2009 1:02am

Trojan911 wrote: »

If you cannot contain the threat, which they clearly couldn't in this serious life threatening scenario, then put him down by shooting the major organs (chest area). Isolate the danger, the perp is down, the public are safe, now apply medical aid until the arrival of the Ambulance Service/Paramedics etc.

Don't ponce about aiming to shoot for legs and then beating him about the body with batons. When bullets hit solid ground they ricochet/fragment. Several shots appear to have been fired and beatings with batons are also seen and the perp is still running around. One of the tyres is flat on a squad car.

Agree 100%

the locust · 14-11-2009 8:16am

+1. I agree with trojan...
This is somewhere in Russia and they did the best they could with the training they have and i they showed restraint with the firepower they had available (i think there are guys standing beside the camera with AKSU's! 1:45 and 5:41).

I think this guy maybe wanted the police to shoot him. At 1:43 after running after a few armed officers with no luck he walks towards the guy with the AKSU with his hands up, in a 'come on do it' gesture? The guy with in the vest with the AK steps back and gives him space.

I think a number of times any of them (all armed) were well justified to shoot to kill. Officer and Public safety.
That guy ran at them swiping, and worst case scenario he could have easily crossed the barrier, stopped traffic and got into a family car!

As for the baton strikes later on - thats pain compliance, i think they weren't happy until he let go of the knives - excessive yeah maybe but its Russia! And its a life threatening situation, they really don't want him up again if he's not feeling pain. Yes they probably shouldn't have aimed to have shot him in the legs either!

At 5:18 i think is that a canister of chemical spray? Looks like spray lying on the ground beside him? If so i presume they tried to use that.

It is easy to sit back and say what should have been done, but i suppose you can learn from videos like this.

PS - pretty poor first aid aftercare! 1/10!

kerry4sam · 14-11-2009 2:15pm

Chief, at first I watched this clip only the once as I just couldn't being myself to see it again, graphic it sure was. The sight of this bloody man lying on the concrete with the police restraining him is imprinted in my mind.

Now, after reading the posts here by Trojan911 & The_locust I have to say thanks guys for your words of wisdom on this.

Turner · 14-11-2009 2:33pm

Now you see what the Gardai are up against every week.

I have seen this type of situation or similiar, five or six times in my service, and nobody ever got shot. They are terrifying experiences and i will never forget them.

I have never experienced somebody armed with a real gun (immitation yes) threatening me.

People rarely see the policing the Gardai do and its not pretty.

Its not all about hiding behind bus shelters doing speed checks (traffic corp) or walking in twos down grafton street in the sun chatting to tourists.

Trojan911 · 14-11-2009 3:06pm

Chief--- wrote: »

Now you see what the Gardai are up against every week.

Probably every day/night in some part of Ireland this happens, whether it is a mentally deranged person, drunk, drugged or domestic violence incident. Not every incident is reported in the press/media either.

It is not the pleasant side of policing I agree.

I worked on the domestic violence unit for a year and a half while over and also completed a Sexual Offences course at the Detective training school at Hendon for male & female victims of serious sexual assault, they weren't pleasant either, but I chose to do it so can't really grumble. They were eye openers, I'll say that much.

kerry4sam · 14-11-2009 3:32pm

Chief--- wrote: »

Now you see what the Gardai are up against every week.
...
People rarely see the policing the Gardai do and its not pretty.

Its not all about hiding behind bus shelters doing speed checks (traffic corp) or walking in twos down grafton street in the sun chatting to tourists.

I know that it's not all about doing speed checks or giving directions, in-fact it's an insult to assume to think that's the way people view the work of A.G.S. as not every civilian thinks that way. I for one know first-hand otherwise, even if what I am being told & the experiences I am hearing about daily happens in a small town in the country. That imo is a topic in itself as most people do rarely see the rough/tough-side of work carried out by members and would mainly only see traffic duties / routine checks etc etc. Alot happens in the shadows that some people don't even want to know about, let alone want to see or even hear about. I know it's not pretty and neither are the injury's caused when things don't go to plan. That's why I respect the views of members who post here, as they prove time & time again that common-sense cannot be taught to anyone and it vital for every member imo.

The advantage of this site is the ability to show clips like the one you posted to put visual images to the words being told.

GalwayKiefer · 14-11-2009 3:52pm

I cant understand why they didn't shoot him in the chest the second he rushed the first officer with the knives? Granted they showed a lot of self-restraint dealing with him but still, reasons behind it ignored - if you rush an officer (or a civilian for that matter) with two knives you need to be put down straight away. And I do not mean shoot to kill in case anyone misunderstands me, that craic of shooting him in the legs while he's running around was just plain dangerous. Especially with all the traffic around - how many stray shots where there?

meathstevie · 14-11-2009 6:47pm

Taser would have sorted that in 2 seconds flat. Anyway, that's hypothetical and as a lot of people here have said shooting for limbs is not exactly what most European police forces would be trained for. Suffice to say that the knife man is extremely lucky to be alive or at least not more seriously injured after the encounter with the police.

civdef · 14-11-2009 8:35pm

I remember reading someplace that for a lot of European police in the past, particularly in Germany, shooting a suspect in the legs with the standard sidearm (usually something fairly small like a .32) was considered "less lethal" and was allowed if a suspect was running away.