Another Penalty Point Question!

Shane732

Ok so I was driving to work this morning, went through an amber light. Third car back waiting to turn right was a Garda car. The car turned around and pull in behind me. He didn't pull me over at this point just pulled in behind me. They just had a good look at who was in the car – I’m a young individual driving a BMW. I moved on. He then flashed his lights and pulled me over.

They got out of the car and proceeded to tell me that I broken a red light. The light was certainly not red when I went through the junction, although it more than likely was red by the time I got to the other side of the junction.

Now I'm left in a situation where I'll be getting a ticket for 2 penalty points in the coming weeks.

I’ve looked over the guidelines in relation to stopping at lights. They read as follows;

An amber light means that you must not go beyond the stop line or, if there is no stop line, beyond the light. However, you may go on if you are so close to the line or the light when the amber light first appears that stopping would be dangerous.

I would contend that I was certainly within the guidelines as outlined above. I was doing about 50Km/h. I think that if I’d hit the brakes to stop the car then I would have either stopped in the middle of the junction or got rear ended by the car behind me.

I feel extremely hard done by but don't know if there is anything I can do about it. If I appeal the decision I run the risk of getting 5 points for the offence. As I already have two points I cannot run the risk of having the charge increased to 5 points. I’m currently looking to see if I can get my hands on any CCTV footage of the incident. Do I have any further recourse?

I've posted this on AAM too.

bad2dabone

The same thing happened to my wife, although it was a garda motorbike who stopped her. She's quite sure it was an amber she went through (and i'ld believe her) and that for her to stop would have been unsafe.

However, she just had to take the points, as like yourself she didn't want 5 points for contesting it, as basically it's her word against the Guards.

Hopefully one of the posters from AGS will be able to advise, but to me it looks like you'ld have to take the points despite leaving a bitter taste in your mouth.

Shane732

Thanks for your reply.

It has left a very bitter taste in my mouth all right. What annoys me further is the fact that the they didn't pull me over straight away. They sat behind me so they could get a good look at me for I'd say about a 45 seconds - 1 minutes before they pulled me over.

I'm going to be up to 4 points now. The first two points relate to speeding (71 Km/h in a 60Km/h zone). I accepted these points and paid the fine etc..

This offence is a complete and utter joke.

Not only that but the Gardaí was utterly rude too.

Henry Ford III

Shane732 wrote: »

I would contend that I was certainly within the guidelines as outlined above. I was doing about 50Km/h. I think that if I’d hit the brakes to stop the car then I would have either stopped in the middle of the junction or got rear ended by the car behind me.

Is 50kph is a little on the quick side to be going through a traffic light?

faceman

Shane732 wrote: »

It has left a very bitter taste in my mouth all right. What annoys me further is the fact that the they didn't pull me over straight away. They sat behind me so they could get a good look at me for I'd say about a 45 seconds - 1 minutes before they pulled me over.

They probably were doing a check on the reg before pulling you over.

NOt that its any help to your case but proof that even the gardai can make mistakes, a friend of mine got pulled over "for breaking a red light" at Terenure village crossroads. It was a garda just walking the beat flagged him down.

Thing was, my mate didnt run a red or an amber light, he had a filter light to go straight while other lights were red.

He pleaded his case to the garda who was having none of it. Eventually the gardai checked out the light sequence and realised there was a filter and came back to my mate and just told him to move along. No apology or nothing.

Shane732

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Is 50kph is a little on the quick side to be going through a traffic light?

It's a good point. The speed limit in the area is 60Km/h in the area. I was travelling circa 10Km/h under the speed limit. The guidelines state that you should reduce speed (but not to a crawl) when going through a set of lights. I was going 10km/h shows that I had reduced my speed.

bad2dabone

its fine to go through a light at 50kph, i'm sure most of us travel through lights at 50kph plenty of times every day, well within the speed limit and driving safely.

It depends on the size of the road. Going through a light at 50kph in a housing estate would be mad, going through a light on a major road at 50kph would be the norm.
(ofc i mean a green light in all cases! :P )

Berni doc

bad2dabone wrote: »

The same thing happened to my wife, although it was a garda motorbike who stopped her. She's quite sure it was an amber she went through (and i'ld believe her) and that for her to stop would have been unsafe.

However, she just had to take the points, as like yourself she didn't want 5 points for contesting it, as basically it's her word against the Guards.

Hopefully one of the posters from AGS will be able to advise, but to me it looks like you'ld have to take the points despite leaving a bitter taste in your mouth.

I stopped at a green light once before to avoid the amber light and a car ran into the back of my car, you are right it is sometimes unsafe to stop

DonJose

Berni doc wrote: »

I stopped at a green light once before to avoid the amber light and a car ran into the back of my car, you are right it is sometimes unsafe to stop

Come again? You stopped at a GREEN LIGHT to avoid an amber light :eek:

Shane732

One other point to note is that the Garda on duty didn't actually have the handheld (pulse I think?) unit on board to register the offence.

Unfortunately I didn't have my licene on me - I'm aware that this is an offence in itself but nothing was said about this.

Anyway they just took my details down on a piece of paper and that was it. I have to produce my licence within a week etc....

Would the above have any effect on the matter?

Shane732

DonJose wrote: »

Come again? You stopped at a GREEN LIGHT to avoid an amber light :eek:

Well infairness he didn't want to go through the lights and be pulled over for breaking a red light!!

DonJose

Shane732 wrote: »

Well infairness he didn't want to go through the lights and be pulled over for breaking a red light!!

Did you read what he said?

"I stopped at a green light once before to avoid the amber light and a car ran into the back of my car"

Shane732

DonJose wrote: »

Did you read what he said?

"I stopped at a green light once before to avoid the amber light and a car ran into the back of my car"

Yes I did read what he said – my reply was an attempt at sarcasm. I.e. if he was pulled over on the other side the Garda would say that the light was red.

bad2dabone

Berni doc wrote: »

I stopped at a green light once before to avoid the amber light and a car ran into the back of my car, you are right it is sometimes unsafe to stop

i assume you're joking ?

Stopping on a green to avoid an amber is bound to get you rear ended and is your fault!

CharlieCroker

The Garda not having the FCPS (handheld) machine makes no odds, it can be updated when he gets back to the station. He just took the details down in his notebook.
Also, make sure you produce your licence within 10 days, its an offence not to. Bring your insurance cert and nct with you too just to avoid any confusion.

As for the offence, I wasn't there ao i cant comment. If the Guard on scene feels he has a strong enough case to prosecute you, then he prob does.
Contrary to what a lot of people think, not all Gardai are always out to get people. He wouldn't have turned the car around and followed you if he wasn't sure that you'd done something wrong.
As for taking a minute to pull you in, there are a number of reasons for this:
- reg check as someone already said
- looking for a safe place to pull you in
- not wanting to block traffic.

There's a few more that i cant think of at the moment.

Joeyjoejoe43

Shane732 wrote: »

my reply was an attempt at sarcasm.

Fairly bad attempt!

Joeyjoejoe43

CharlieCroker wrote: »

Contrary to what a lot of people think, not all Gardai aren't always out to get people.

Ha!! You said it mate!

Rulmeq

Stories like this make dashcams sound very attractive.

CharlieCroker

Joeyjoejoe43 wrote: »

Ha!! You said it mate!

Fixed that.

tmcw

What I don't understand is how the police knew you went through a red light (you say they turned around, which sounds like they were facing the opposite direction to you). Were they in a position to see the colour of the light?

Another point is that if they're guessing that it was red, based on what they we're seeing on the lights opposing the direction you were travelling, that wouldn't stand up in court I don't think, as, in my experience, the lights aren't always exactly synced.

Your other point about not stopping as it was changing to amber and you didn't want anyone coming up your ass is valid too. If it was me in the same circumstances as I've understood, I'd go to court over it. Doesn't sound like you were acting the kunt.

furiousox

Usually when cases like this go to court the judge always sides with the guard.
The cctv footage would be a big help for your case though...

Esel

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Is 50kph is a little on the quick side to be going through a traffic light?

WTF?

a_v525

Hey man, FYI all garda cars have those windshield mounted cameras in them. If the garda car had a clear shot of you & the lights, chances are its recorded on the camera so if you went to court you could get the gardai to show the footage which would show if you broke the red light or not.

TimmyTarmac

Howya Shane,
Not sure if this is any help but a little over a year ago I was summonsed to appear before the Dublin District Court ( at the Richmond St courts) for non payment of a speeding fine. I had a specific difficulty because my old hand written license had a digit missing on the number. I accepted I was speeding, by the way, but I went to court to explain that I had to try to pay the fine with no success. Anyhoo, while I was there there was a case the same as yours. The Garda gave his evidence that this woman had broken a red light turning right at some junction in Tallaght. The lady herself, with fire in her eyes, adamantly disagreed with the Guard saying that the light was amber and that not turning would have been unsafe. The Judge quickly threw out the case because of the conflicting accounts. He also threw out a couple of speeding cases because people claimed they didn't get the notice in the post. I guess you could call this judge lenient. That was my only time in court and I'm told it's not like that always and you can get a guy with little or no sympathy for you.
If you are ticked off enough it is an option but a gamble.
In my case, the kind Judge accepted my particular explanation and didn't put points on my license - I could have gotten six and an 800 euro fine for non payment of the original fine. He did order me to pay a nice few quid into the poor box in recognition of my speeding.
If you fancy the gamble, put on your best suit and bring your righteous indignation.

Cheers

Shane732

Thank for all the replies!

The Garda wouldn't have been able to see my car as I was going through the lights on my side.

The car was two/three cars back waiting to turn right so he wouldn't have had a clear view.

In relation to the lights - I simply don't know, it is possible that he saw the lights, its also possible he didn't.

I would love to take this to court but if I lost I'd be up to 7 points and getting insurance at my age in a car like that would be impossible. It's already hard enough - but that's another days work.

It's completely a judgement call, he wasn't on my side of the road. He didn't have a clear view of me going through the junction. He only saw me on the other side of the junction.

I suppose the key to this would be CCTV footage - if I could prove the light was amber I'd be ok.

Shane732

Joeyjoejoe43 wrote: »

Fairly bad attempt!

Duly noted!

Savman

Shane732 wrote: »

I would love to take this to court

Think that's all you can do tbh, you have to prove there's an element of doubt about the sequence of events. You might get off, you might get convicted, impossible to know for sure. Only you can decide if it's worth the risk to fight it.

Or you might never hear about it again, its a long shot but...

galwaytt

The keys things here are:

Shane732 wrote: »

• The Garda wouldn't have been able to see my car as I was going through the lights on my side.
  
• The car was two/three cars back waiting to turn right so he wouldn't have had a clear view.
  
• .... he wasn't on my side of the road. He didn't have a clear view of me going through the junction. He only saw me on the other side of the junction.
  
• I suppose the key to this would be CCTV footage - if I could prove the light was amber I'd be ok.

For me, there's enough doubt on their side, and too much at stake, for you to NOT contest this. But approach the Garda directly at the station first, and make your case - nicely, and see if you can get him to see your point of view.

Esel

And if you do contest it, get a solicitor.

Shane732

galwaytt wrote: »

The keys things here are:

[/LIST]

For me, there's enough doubt on their side, and too much at stake, for you to NOT contest this. But approach the Garda directly at the station first, and make your case - nicely, and see if you can get him to see your point of view.

Hi Galwaytt,

Thanks I think I'm going to go with your advice - I have to drop my licence in to the station so I'll try and speak to the officer about it and see what he has to say.

sogood

Isn't it a sad state of affairs that we see so many of these types of posts. Admittedly, while many Gardai are fair minded, decent and conscientious sorts, some unfortunatelly forget that they are servants of the public. Too often a Garda can come the heavy and poor Joe public is left cra**ing himself, for fear of getting into even bigger trouble, whether or not he was in trouble to start with. It seems that a Garda can pull you over for any, or no reason, decide that you did something wrong, and you have to shut up and pay up. Any attempt at reasonable discussion can be interpreted as "resisting" or "being un-cooperative/ argumentative etc." which never sounds good in court. Do you have a leg to stand on? Do you have any specific rights? Do the Gardai have all encompassing powers to which you have no defence? Is there a leaflet or guide to the above, specifically as to what your rights are, what the Garda powers are? Would it be any use, as at the end of the day, it's your word against his?

Shane732

Do the Gardai have to meet a quota? If so then its completely ridiculous!

I'm going to try and speak to a Sargent in the station. If that doesn't work then I'll go to the ombudsman.

I'll have a good look around for CCTV when I'm around the area next.

CharlieCroker

sogood wrote: »

Isn't it a sad state of affairs that we see so many of these types of posts. Admittedly, while many Gardai are fair minded, decent and conscientious sorts, some unfortunatelly forget that they are servants of the public. Too often a Garda can come the heavy and poor Joe public is left cra**ing himself, for fear of getting into even bigger trouble, whether or not he was in trouble to start with. It seems that a Garda can pull you over for any, or no reason, decide that you did something wrong, and you have to shut up and pay up. Any attempt at reasonable discussion can be interpreted as "resisting" or "being un-cooperative/ argumentative etc." which never sounds good in court. Do you have a leg to stand on? Do you have any specific rights? Do the Gardai have all encompassing powers to which you have no defence? Is there a leaflet or guide to the above, specifically as to what your rights are, what the Garda powers are? Would it be any use, as at the end of the day, it's your word against his?

Is there a guide to a Garda powers regarding traffic?? I wouldn't exactly call it a guide, but an extremely comprehensive piece of legislation.
Its called the Road Traffic Act 1961-2006.

I love the way people give out about the the law when hardly anyone has actually read ANY of it.

Go to www.irishstatutebook.ie for some education. Might be helpful

sogood

CharlieCroker wrote: »

Is there a guide to a Garda powers regarding traffic?? I wouldn't exactly call it a guide, but an extremely comprehensive piece of legislation.
Its called the Road Traffic Act 1961-2006.

I love the way people give out about the the law when hardly anyone has actually read ANY of it.

Go to www.irishstatutebook.ie for some education. Might be helpful

Thank you for that, but just to clarify, I wasn't "giving out about the law" merely complaining about the sometimes heavy handed behaviour of a minority of "law enforcers". My query wasn't exactly about the content or otherwise of the Road traffic Act, which I happen to be pretty familiar with, along with other related legislations, obligations, requirements etc. as I am a professional driver and am obliged to stay up to date with all current laws in this regard. My query was a general one regarding "Joe Publics" rights, when dealing with requests, instructions etc. from a member of the Gardai, as in non confrontational damage limitation for example. Thank you for your response however and point taken.

Shane732

Just a quick question - How long do the Gardai have to input an incident report into their system?