Theory Question: Modes and Scales

slipss

Ok, so I was intersted in writting something in the Locrian mode because I heard that it's extremely rare for music to be written in it. But in researching it I think I've discovered that maybe I don't really understand keys, scales and modes at all.

Here's where I'm confused. Gb/F# Locrian has the same notes as G Major, running in the same order just with Gb Locrian starting a note sooner. But you can't say that Cliffs of Dover for instance is written in Gb Locrian, can you? Now I figure it must be to do with the root note being different, but how does that make a difference. I mean if I wrote Cliffs of Dover and just finished it on a Gb would then you be able to say it was in Gb Locrian instead of G major. Or if I finished most of the phrases or sections on Gb would that make it Gb Locrian, even if every other note in the piece were identical played in the exact same way? What about if I took 75% of the G notes in it and directly swapped them for Gb's, is it in Locrian now instead of Gmajor?

I'm just using Gb Locrian and G major as the examples here but all the modes contain all the same notes as one of the major scales, yeah? So why have modes at all? I mean they are all just a major scale in a different key.

Maybe it's root notes I don't really understand. What I think I know about them is that if you are playing something in E minor pentatonic for instance then you kind of just play either side of an E in a scale and keep running back and forth over it. Is that right? I've noticed lots of music doesn't seem to do that at all. How do you use a root note?

If that isn't clear please ask where I need to clarify for ye? Thanks for the help.


(please don't just link me to a site that explains it cause I've read through about 50 of them all saying pretty much the same thing but I still don't grasp it.)

OK-Cancel-Apply

You are correct about emphasis and chord choices. I think the problem with understanding lies in the particular mode you've picked for this question. The thing about the Locrian mode is that it always sounds like it wants to resolve up to the one above. For example, the F# in F# Locrian will pretty much always sound like it's really the 7 of G Ionian. I think that's why nobody uses it.

18AD

Here's a quick excercise that may let you hear why they are different.
Play F# Locrian. Then play F# phrygian, etc... Play each mode from F# up and down a couple of times and listen to them. You should be able to hear a difference between them.

As said, the locrian should sound unresolved.

I'm sure you can already hear the difference between the sound of a song written in a major key and a song written in a minor key. Now, more than likely, they are written in the Ionian and Aeolian modes respectively. This is why the modes are used. If all songs were played in the Ionian mode, they would all sound basically the same.

Hope this helps.
Good luck.

stevejazzx

The OP seems to be forgetting about 'key' somewhat.
First the key goes in, then a chord structure, then a top line. Now many 'modes' maybe used within/over a key. Let's takes EMinor, if I play all csharps instead c naturals (which they would be tonically) I am playing the Dorian mode of EMinor, regardless of starting note, although there may be well influence to 'how it sounds' depending where I start and finish.

Let's start by taking a look at the E Dorian Mode.


The EMinor Dorian is also the d major and the Minor scale. But key or chordal transitions from EMinor to d major and BMinor don't really sound 100% right which is odd considering they share identical set of notes. Certainly the overlying chordal structure is what determines the 'sound' or minor/ majorness of things. Bach to your g lorcian, it is only so 'unresolved' sounding because the chordal structure is rooted tonically to g and the mode is so far off that it sounds somewhat 'out'.
When you know what you're doing this is great fun because you can highlight certain notes over certain chords for that ultimate sense of tension and relief. This is the essence of Jazz and an extremely difficult thing to a) understand in entirety and b) put into improvisational practice.

Remember a mode is not a mode without the overlying key and chordal structure otherwise it is just another scale and a scale becomes a mode when played over a group of chords.
Benjamin Britten's 'Death in Venice' uses some weird modes, even the Lorcian I think, check it out!

Rigsby

Here is a good site that deals with modes.

http://www.jacmuse.com/melodic%20resources/church%20modes/newpage42.htm

slipss

Cheers lads, clears it up a bit.

Steve when you say

"Remember a mode is not a mode without the overlying key and chordal structure otherwise it is just another scale and a scale becomes a mode when played over a group of chords."

Does that mean that a solo instrumental piece, like just lead guitar playing without any rythm section or chords being played beneath it, it would be inaccurate to say that is was played in B Ionian for example if it was played in B Major, even though they are identical? Or a similar piece would have to be called G Major rather than Gb Locrian if it was just one instrument playing, no rythm under it? So modes aren't really scales but more how scales relate to the rest of the music in the piece. Those that make sense? If so does that mean that Lydian for example should only be used in certain circumstances depending on the accompaniment, only used with certain chords?

stevejazzx

slipss wrote: »

Cheers lads, clears it up a bit.

Steve when you say

"Remember a mode is not a mode without the overlying key and chordal structure otherwise it is just another scale and a scale becomes a mode when played over a group of chords."

Does that mean that a solo instrumental piece, like just lead guitar playing without any rythm section or chords being played beneath it, it would be inaccurate to say that is was played in B Ionian for example if it was played in B Major, even though they are identical? Or a similar piece would have to be called G Major rather than Gb Locrian if it was just one instrument playing, no rythm under it? So modes aren't really scales but more how scales relate to the rest of the music in the piece. Those that make sense? If so does that mean that Lydian for example should only be used in certain circumstances depending on the accompaniment, only used with certain chords?

Good question - the answer for more often than not is no.
Most music, even linear lines from a solo instrument follow a chordal structure. In this setting it is much harder sometimes to hear to the mode in action depending on how the chordal structure is highlighted by the linear line. For example it is easy to play individual notes and highlight a chord structure by simply starting each part with with the root third and fifth, or even just straightforward arpeggios. In a complex linear (single note by note) passage the overlying chord progression might not be that apparent (analysis on paper makes it easier to detect sometimes). Occasionally a piece may follow just the rules of the tonic key in which case we can say it's the Ionian mode but that is not an absolute definition. So although someone playing a d Maj scale starting and finishing on the note d - could be said to be playing a d Ionian, it is really just a d major scale if there is no corresponding 'music' or chordal passage. It might be confusing to call it the Ionian mode as we think of modes as degrees of the tonic key
1st degree or tonic (key) ... Ionian
whole step (2 frets)
2nd degree ... Dorian minor mode
whole step (2 frets)
3rd degree ... Phyrgian mode
half step (1 fret)
4th degree ... Lydian mode
whole step (2 frets)
5th degree ... Mixolydian
whole step (2 frets)
6th degree ... Aeolian
whole step (2 frets)
7th degree ... Locrian
half step (1 fret)
1st (8th) degree

and it's a bit useless to us unless it is put into practice. That's what I meant by a scale is just a scale.

In your example where there is a single linear line there would invariably be many scales around a structure with a certain order of 'key' notes. This would invariably highlight a chordal passage so the rules of modes, although trickier in a solo setting like this, still apply. the idea that I was trying to get across is that I found is is easier to explain to people that most modes can be related as scales we already know (albeit they might run from different start and end points to suit the key signature as in the example earlier where the familiar d major/b minor scale when played over an eminor becomes the e Dorian mode in action). That is just another way of looking at it because sometimes the theory of degrees of the scale is daunting for students starting off so I like to link in the familiarity of already known data. In this way when they go back to learning modes by degress it should be easier for them.

slipss

Cheers man, first time I've seen that explained where it actually made sense to me. Think everythings cleared up in my mind now.


Out of curiosity are you a music teacher or did you just study a lot of theory yourself?

stevejazzx

slipss wrote: »

Cheers man, first time I've seen that explained where it actually made sense to me. Think everythings cleared up in my mind now.



Well I was tihnking I sould have gone into it in a bit more detail about but it was already going on quite a bit and you sound as if you've grasped the fundamentals?

Out of curiosity are you a music teacher or did you just study a lot of theory yourself?

Both!
Did my grades part time in Chatham Row on classical guitar, now play a bit of everything - mostly Jazz and classical. Give some lessons at my house from time to time to 3 or 4 guys who are really into it.

Glad it hepled a bit anyway

steve