Writing.. is it really that hard?

oceansize

Hey there,

I started writing a book about 8 years ago. When i say started, i mean i've written about 20 pages.

The story i have is huge, but it's only main events.

The idea is huge, and i've thought so for the last 8 years. It's a fantasy book.
The problem is, i've done no writing before, and all of the stuff i write down is just sentences etc. The idea is great, but im just having trouble being able to link all of the "big ideas and incidents" together like in a normal book, you have big events, and then fillers.

The world i envision for this novel is colossal, lots of different places and people etc, i just have no idea how to kind of er... write it, so each part links together.

Do you sit there and write down names of characters and then write back stories for them,and then slot them in places?

I'm having problems also describing whats in my head, places for instance,
How would one of you describe walking out from behind some trees into a huge opening and seeing a in the distance a huge city under siege (im taking an image from the lord of the rings where the orcs are attacking the white city, and i only chose this because i've been looking at things to try and help myself describe what i have in my head).

Thanks if you can help!

pickarooney

A book is not like an album. There should really be no 'filler' as such; everything should be important and lead up to the 'big events', as it were. It can be quite daunting to have a broad idea and refine it down - anyone can conceive a grand building but when it comes down to the physics and the minute details of each room on each floor it can seem like an impossible task.

Start with a cottage. Imagine one part of your story and make a rough sketch of what it should look like. Who lives there and what is his or her role in the story? What is going to happen to them. Move on to the next part of the story and do the same thing. When you have a number of parts, start to link them together. Create as many links as you think necessary to both advance the story and interest the reader.

As regards describing a scene, take a similar approach. Take the bare bones of what's happening, then imagine it, try to see, feel, smell, hear what's happening at that precise moment. How much detail you go into is a defining feature of your style and is up to you to work out.

I don't know how other people come up with names for characters, but I use a variety of techniques - variations on real people, names that sound like the character's personality or features, humorous, clever or mysterious names... this is the fun bit and you can change them at any time with a simple CTRL-H

Pick a piece of your story and populate it with a few characters. Imagine them in as much detail as you can, even if you don't give all that detail away, as it will help to create more real characters. Then just write something...

weiming

Anyone literate can write. I would say writing well is hard. Just as there are a thousand different schools and styles in painting, so it is with writing. I would say except for those with phenomenal natural gifts, you need passion to write well, and passion literally means "suffering" so yeah, it's kinda hard.

But then again anything is hard if you don't know how to do it. If you've discovered methods that are both effective and work for you, you might find writing to be much easier and even enjoyable as well as sometimes "hard".

There's a wealth of information available everywhere about writing exercises, techniques etc. etc., I would suggest you seriously look at a few. In the same way you might buy a book like "How to draw", you might want to read something on "how to write" and actually use the suggestions and see which ones work for you.

To me, it sounds like you're trying to take on too large a task. Instead of writing an epic fantasy novel at your first go, why not start with some short stories that take place in specific locations in this world of yours (post them here, even).

There must be wars and deaths and conquests in this story you imagine, why not start by trying to describe one specific event in detail in a story that is only a few pages long? Once you've written a few of these, it should be relatively easier to expand the scope of your writing and tie many smaller stories together to get a larger one, or perhaps they could remain a series of stories. "Conan" never suffered for it.

Of course, there is no one right way to go about it. Really, familiarizing yourself with different writing techniques and experimenting with them is where you should start.

[EDIT] wow, pickarooney and I decided, at roughly the same time that we had roughly the same things to say about writing in roughly 310 words, that is like karmically...wow, it's like we're brothers from another moth...it's just like...wow.[Edit]

oceansize

thanks guys. OK I'll take a small part that I've already written and post it here for you to look at? That's really helpful cheers!

oceansize

Here you go.

"The patrol were crouched low in their boats, in a line, moving silently through the water which was as calm as glass.
Hoods up and stealthy, there was a tension never felt before by most of the men, just the actuality of being on the lake had made some of them nervous.
The fog was thick and obscured their view which made everything seem surreal. Like a smoking mirror that was beneath them, the fog itself like the smoke from a raging fire emanating from below them.

After some time the scout boat just ahead of the rest started to slow, and the order went back through the line to slow up, there was some low gasps as of to the west even through the fog there could be seen a line of dull yellow lights, like lamps. They seemed to be following a pattern, as if lining a shore of some kind.
“steady” was the only sound that came from the front boat.
Captain Geijan gave the order with his hands to move in toward the shore in a staggered formation, each boatmaster taking up position in rank without saying a word.

Straight up ahead now the fog seemed to clear a little and the shoreline with the fire torches lining it could be seen clearly. Geijan gave the order again, but this time the order was to halt. In unison the paddles of each boat wave in the opposite direction slowly under water to counter the boats forward movements.

They lay still now. Perro was scanning the shoreline from the west across as far as he could see down to the east. For a while he thought he couldn’t see anything apart from the dancing flames of the torches along the coast, he could faintly make out that there seemed to be some heavy brush, possibly a treeline beyond the torched path, but that was all. The signal was given and the boats advanced again, this time at a snails pace so as not to cause any waves to touch the shoreline if there were any watchful eyes.

“Halt!” was the next thing that was heard and the alarmed whispering voice of Geijan seemed to linger for an age. All boats came to a halt at once. Now, clearly visible was indeed a shoreline that stretched off to the west and then disappeared around a sharp bend.

Upon observation the road at first seemed empty. But under the hoods of the men closest to the shore, eyes were wide and shocked.
Almost instantaneously all men in the first 2 boats had stooped low in their water bourn cradles. They were almost invisible. Each man in awe at the sight of what was almost certainly a column of mounted humanoids riding in single file at a gallop going west along the road.
They appeared to be heavily armoured, almost all identical, wearing tall dark horned helmets and bright yellow spears. The horses appeared to be large war horses with heavily armoured legs and the riders bored huge tower shields bearing a symbol which appeared to be of a large red boat.
As the line tailed off there could be seen least a half a dozen large carts, which appeared to be laden with bodies, bloodied and battered, and clearly those of a spent force from some kind of assault or defence, more then likely a failed one.

As the last of the rear guard had passed where the boats were still floating silently, the horseman tailing slightly behind seemed to reign in his mount and did an about face, he observed off to the east as his mount bucked and lifted it’s head. For a while the horseman was motionless, apart from some light hand movements which instructed his mount to move him in or out on the road. Then all of a sudden, he lifted a horn from below his outside leg to his mouth. A sound so frightening as the sound of an earth tremble rose high above everything else, and the horseman, and what seemed like all riders in front of him burst off at an alarming speed west, and around the bend out of sight of the floating silent boatmen who were silently observing them,
Instinctively once the last of the riders were out of sight, all eyes went back to the east, the the which obscured the lamps which appeared to keep on going in behind the brush on the edge of the road. For a while all was silent apart from the ever growing silence caused by the heavily laden horses pounding on the road to the west. After what seemed an age the sound seemed to get louder again, but this time something emerged from the brush to the east. A group of approximately a dozen horsemen wearing what appeared to be red robes and masked hoods with towering spears pointed straight upward emerged moving at incredible pace apparently following the trail left by the army some minutes ahead. The sight was strange, seeing such brightly coloured riders moving so quickly. None in the boats moved or made a sound. When the first rider was level he raised his hand high, clenched his fist and brought it down fast to his side. Almost instantly the riders came to a halt almost directly in line with the boatmen. The lead rider immediately dismounted and removed it’s bow from it’s back, and fired a projectile at incredible pace toward where the boats were waiting. The object landed directly through the rudder of the lead boat and detached it from the craft. The projectile itself was large and long like a polearm with huge scimitar like spikes near the tip...

That's all original and it's mine, It probably doesn't make sense as it;'s not really in the context of the rest of the story but it's just a part i picked.

Can you maybe rewrite it so it actually sound like it's from a bookand not a notepad lol

pickarooney

I don't know about rewriting it (!) but I'll give you a few pointers.
Firstly, I like the setting and there's certainly a lot you can do with the story.
I would suggest tightening it up a bit as there are a lot of 'clunky' unnecessary words which break the flow of the story.

oceansize wrote: »

Here you go.

"The patrol were crouched low in their boats,

Strictly speaking a patrol is singular and should have a singular verb form. It's quite common to use a singular noun to refer to a collective entity, e.g. "Manchester United were on the back foot", but this early in the passage it might be better to use 'patrolmen' or other singular noun to avoid any confusion.

in a line,

It's not entirely clear if the men or the boats were in a line.

moving silently through the water which was as calm as glass.

This is the first example of 'clunk'. '...through water as calm as glass...' says the same thing in fewer words and flows a little better.

Hoods up and stealthy, there was a tension never felt before by most of the men, just the actuality of being on the lake had made some of them nervous.

'Stealthy' really refers to an undetactable movement which cannot really be said for men sitting or standing in a boat. The first part of the sentence does not fit properly with the second. Simplify it, e.g.: 'Tension was palpable amongst the hooded men; the mere fact of being on the lake had many shaking with nerves.'

The fog was thick and obscured their view which made everything seem surreal. Like a smoking mirror that was beneath them, the fog itself like the smoke from a raging fire emanating from below them.

They're on a boat and the fog is rising from beneath them, i.e. from the water itself? You've mixed up three different descriptions to tell us there was thick fog rising. You could say the same with 'Fog, thick and smokelike, rose from the lake'. You've already told us the lake was smooth as glass.

After some time the scout boat just ahead of the rest started to slow, and the order went back through the line to slow up, there was some low gasps as of to the west. Even through the fog there could be seen a line of dull yellow lights, like lamps.

Use full stops at the end of sentences, not commas. Passive voice is cumbersome here. Lights are usually lamplike, you're not telling us much there as it would be impossible to make out the exact shapes of the lights.

They seemed to be following a pattern, as if lining a shore of some kind.

I would tend to use 'arranged in a row' or something.

“steady” was the only sound that came from the front boat.

Captain Geijan gave the order with his hands to move in toward the shore in a staggered formation, each boatmaster taking up position in rank without saying a word.

Is Geijan saying 'steady'? What is he doing with his hands? Can anyone see what he's doing with his hands in the thick fog?

Straight up ahead now the fog seemed to clear a little and the shoreline with the fire torches lining it could be seen clearly. Geijan gave the order again, but this time the order was to halt.

He gave the order again, but it was a different order. Simplify.

In unison the paddles of each boat wave in the opposite direction slowly under water to counter the boats forward movements.

Not sure if there is a typo but I didn't understand this sentence. What does 'wave' mean here?

They lay still now. Perro was scanning the shoreline from the west across as far as he could see down to the east.

While lying still? Picky maybe, but you might want to make an exception.

For a while he thought he couldn’t see anything apart from the dancing flames of the torches along the coast, he could faintly make out that there seemed to be some heavy brush, possibly a treeline beyond the torched path, but that was all.

He thought he couldn't see anything? He either could or he couldn't, really. Then you tell us he can see flames which are now clear enough to identify as torches and also some plantlife. Don't get me wrong, I understand what you're trying to say, but don't state absolutes and then contradict them immediately. 'He strained to make out anything beyond the row of what seemed to be torches lining the tree-lined coast.' ?

The signal was given and the boats advanced again, this time at a snails pace so as not to cause any waves to touch the shoreline if there were any watchful eyes.

Small point, but whether or not there are actually any watchful eyes (and you've told us already there is a long line of eyes) they want to avoid making waves. Also, it's hard enough to believe that the fleet of boats would only be picked up on by the presence of a ripple at the shore.

“Halt!” was the next thing that was heard and the alarmed whispering voice of Geijan seemed to linger for an age.

Clunky passive voice again. Just tell us that Geijan spoke and be done with it.

All boats came to a halt at once. Now, clearly visible was indeed a shoreline that stretched off to the west and then disappeared around a sharp bend.

The 'indeed' is a bit strange. No real need to keep confirming things this way, we're astute enough to know there is a coastline here with a line of torch-wielding enemies on the lookout.

I'll look at the rest of it tomorrow...

oceansize

i wasn't trying to annoy anyone, i was just asking for some advice. You picked alot of parts from a very small part of my story so far, and there's LOADS of mistakes lol.

Maybe if i just wrote the whole thing, and then got someone to go over the lof of it and try help me sort it out?

I'm a professional (not as a writer obviously, I'm a guitarist).

do you think i should continue writing it, or stop and do some kind of creative writing course? I'm afraid that doing a course that will dilute me (as in push me into writing in ways that other people write). The only fantasy novels i've ever read are the lord of the rings. I've read some small outtakes from other popular books and they all seem to follow the same kind of style. I'm hoping that this will help me write something original.

pickarooney

oceansize wrote: »

i wasn't trying to annoy anyone, i was just asking for some advice.

Which is exactly what the forum is for. You haven't annoyed anyone; what made you think that?

You picked alot of parts from a very small part of my story so far, and there's LOADS of mistakes lol.

Only minor things though, stuff that you would probably have picked up on yourself when re-reading and things that can be changed (but only if you want to change them) very easily.

Maybe if i just wrote the whole thing, and then got someone to go over the lof of it and try help me sort it out?

On the one hand, yes, once you have the motivation you can write uninterrupted for months and see what comes out. On the other, nobody can write a book in one go and you'll need lots of rewrites. If you get feedback as you go, provided you take it as encouragement, you can learn to look out for things as you continue writing.

do you think i should continue writing it, or stop and do some kind of creative writing course? I'm afraid that doing a course that will dilute me (as in push me into writing in ways that other people write).

I really don't know what these courses involve or what you can get out of them. Someone who has been on one would be better placed to advise but I would say that if you have a less then positive approach to doing such a course the benefits will be limited.

The only fantasy novels i've ever read are the lord of the rings. I've read some small outtakes from other popular books and they all seem to follow the same kind of style. I'm hoping that this will help me write something original.

I've only read a few fantasy novels in my time and admittedly there are an awful lot of Tolkein clones but also a lot of original works. I think fantasy is like anything - if you're not really 'into' it, it can alll seem the same (I get this with science-fiction and reggae, for example).

Do you want feedback on the rest of the passage or do you feel like rewriting it first or putting up another excerpt?

imasmeasmecanbe

the main problem i find with writing something big like the book you're planning is that i want everything to be perfect. it gets to a point that you have to accept that every sentence you write is'nt going to be a master piece - the thing just would'nt make sense if it was. When i take on projects like this i tend to set apart a certain amount of time each day to just write, non -stp. and regardless of how bad the piece in itself may be, after coming back to it the next day or the day after you can rewrite little bits, and change words and you realise that it really does fit in with the grand aspect of things if you just take a step back and look from the readers perspective not the writers.

FishFingers

imasmeasmecanbe wrote: »

the main problem i find with writing something big like the book you're planning is that i want everything to be perfect. it gets to a point that you have to accept that every sentence you write is'nt going to be a master piece - the thing just would'nt make sense if it was. When i take on projects like this i tend to set apart a certain amount of time each day to just write, non -stp. and regardless of how bad the piece in itself may be, after coming back to it the next day or the day after you can rewrite little bits, and change words and you realise that it really does fit in with the grand aspect of things if you just take a step back and look from the readers perspective not the writers.

Writing is self-specific - we all have our own way to write, and you appear to have yours. Unless you're working under a deadline (which is a great discipline to do) don't put too much pressure on yourself. Break the book into chapters (otherwise you'll look at the project as your Everest, especially if this is your first outing!) - decide what each chapter is going to be about and what's more, what it will lead to. But each chapter should tell you something about the character(s) or thier backgorund(s)....

Write continuous notes even outside of the time you've given yourself to write (a writer doesn't really have specific hours!!). Don't concentrate too hard on the words that you have, but rather concentrate on what you haven't on the page...writing is a disgustingly labourious job! Even when you have your first draft complete you'll be faaaaarrrrrrr from finished, let me tell you! Ask any writer what part of writing they hate and they'll tell you "the editing" is the worst. I myself am working on a script at present, and it is now on its 4th draft and due to be staged early next year!

Keep talking to other writers and don't lose your ambition or motivation - some days you'll just want to give up (it's very natural!). Let ANYONE and EVERYONE read your work (hardest thing to do when you're starting out), even in its progressing stages...(by the end of it people may well be sick of you - but you're only using them for their eyes!!), remember, you're a writer, not a reader!!!

ALWAYS back up your material and make sure to copyright your work (even in the treatment stage!!) so it can't be stolen! (Do a "Poor Man's Copyright!).

The best advice I got off a fairly well known writer - "Write less, read more!" So keep on reading!!!!

Finally, just enjoy the experience! It's very enjoyable! Don't let it become daunting, but allow yourself to become lost in your own world! It's alot of fun! ... And hey! It's almost a real job!!!