Episode Re-Watch - 3x20 - The Man Behind the Curtain

Sad Professor

Okay, lets try another episode. This one is really worth re-watching imo, but if you don't have access to the episode you can read a synopsis here at Lostpedia. And also a transcript.

The main point of discussion though is of course the Cabin scene:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Swhhw0-W_E

Our understanding of this scene has changed a lot in the light of the season 5 finale. We all presumed the guy Locke saw in the chair was Jacob, but it now seems it was actually "Esau" (or was it?). But what about Ben? This is what he tells (Un)Locke about this scene in the s5 finale:

LOCKE: What happened that day at the cabin? When you first took me to meet Jacob?
BEN: Well, you clearly already know that I was talking to an empty chair, John. That I was pretending. Which is not to say that I wasn't as surprised as you were when things started flying around the room.
LOCKE: But why would go to all the trouble to make something like that up?
BEN: I was embarrassed. I didn't want you to know that I had never seen Jacob. So yes, I lied. That's what I do.

Most of this fits pretty well, especially if you consider the rest of Ben's behaviour in season 3. He felt very threatened by Locke and was constantly trying to undermine him in front of his people. But I'm not quite sure why Ben, if he was just pretending, continued to do so when the room started shaking.

Also, Richard (supposedly the only person who was in contact with Jacob) just stands around while Ben declares he's taking Locke to see Jacob. And when Ben comes back he makes up orders from Jacob and Richard just follows them. Smells like a retcon to me. But what do you think?

Some questions:

Why did Ben lead Locke out to the cabin? Did he know about Esau? Or did Jacob once reside there?

What about the line of ash? Did Ben know what it was?

Mr.Nice Guy

Yes it would seem now that it wasn't actually Jacob in the cabin but his nemesis.

One thing that confuses me about that scene. As I recall, Ben said that Jacob didn't like technology and when Locke shone his torch at Ben the room began to shake and Ben was thrown back violently at one stage. In that sense Ben was right about what he said to Locke so had he been to the cabin before and sensed a presence in there?

Psychedelic

Yeah I always think about that doesn't-like-technology reference, seems now it could be Esau who doesn't like technology. Why would either of them not like technology? I think Jacob would be pro-technology, perhaps his use of the loom thing in the Season 5 finale might suggest that? Another thing is the Dharma Initiative was all about new technology so I wonder does that tie in with the island mythology?

Sad Professor

Okay, here's a theory:

Ben hadn't a clue about the entity/Esau living in the cabin. He just thought it was an abandoned old cabin. It belonged to Horace originally, so I assume Ben would have been familiar with it. He just brought Locke out to it to play mind games with him. All that stuff about "Jacob" not liking technology was just bs. The plan was bring Locke out, talk to an empty chair, Locke wouldn't see anything, and then Ben could say, "I'm sorry you are too limited to see". Then he could go back to his people and say Locke was a loser/nobody, let's kill him, etc. Typical twisted Ben plan.

But then Locke hears something. Ben is caught off guard, he's not sure how to react. As far as he's concerned there's nothing there. Then the room starts shaking and, well, maybe Ben thinks it's an earthquake and decides to play along. He's hardly going to go running from the cabin like a little girl. Then he gets flung against the wall like rag doll, now he knows there's something up and he's scared ****less. Look at him when he comes out of the cabin, he really hasn't a clue what just happened. All he knows is Locke said he heard somebody say "help me". Ben thinks, enough is enough, and just shoots him.

Make sense? I'm probably overlooking something.

uncleoswald

I'm not sure that when all is said and done that everything regarding the cabin/Jacob/Esau will make sense. At this stage the makers had a plan for an end but had not decided how to get there with so much uncertainly going on so admit to winging it to a certain extent.

It would seem now to be Esau in the cabin, but its Richard's roll in all this that is so confusing. Did the writers know what roll this character would have in the future? He knows Jacob's true hiding place so why pretend with Ben for so long? If he knew Jacob wasn't in the Cabin did he know something else was? If so why let Locke and Ben go there? Richard doesn't actually seem to be in contact with Jacob but why?

What about the line of ash? Did Ben know what it was?

In that sense Ben was right about what he said to Locke so had he been to the cabin before and sensed a presence in there?

I don't think so, it really seems that his knowledge finally has its limits. Yes he is always deceitful (it was in this episode he blatantly lies about been born on the island) so its hard to be sure but I think we saw the real Ben in the last few episodes in the scenes with the smoke monster and Jacob.

The thing that really pissed me off about this episode was at the very end when Beb just leaves Locke in the grave to die instead of shooting him in the face.

Psychedelic

Sad Professor wrote: »

Okay, here's a theory:

Ben hadn't a clue about the entity/Esau living in the cabin. He just thought it was an abandoned old cabin. It belonged to Horace originally, so I assume Ben would have been familiar with it. He just brought Locke out to it to play mind games with him. All that stuff about "Jacob" not liking technology was just bs. The plan was bring Locke out, talk to an empty chair, Locke wouldn't see anything, and then Ben could say, "I'm sorry you are too limited to see". Then he could go back to his people and say Locke was a loser/nobody, let's kill him, etc. Typical twisted Ben plan.

But then Locke hears something. Ben is caught off guard, he's not sure how to react. As far as he's concerned there's nothing there. Then the room starts shaking and, well, maybe Ben thinks it's an earthquake and decides to play along. He's hardly going to go running from the cabin like a little girl. Then he gets flung against the wall like rag doll, now he knows there's something up and he's scared ****less. Look at him when he comes out of the cabin, he really hasn't a clue what just happened. All he knows is Locke said he heard somebody say "help me". Ben thinks, enough is enough, and just shoots him.

Make sense? I'm probably overlooking something.

Yeah that sounds plausible. Going back to the technology thing again, Ben might have known that because Richard told him about it, so he mentions that to Locke at the cabin. It could still work in your theory.

One thing though, if Ben didn't know about Jacob, surely Richard would have known this and would realise Ben was lying about his orders from Jacob.

Mr.Nice Guy

This is the transcript of the torch bit of the scene prior to the shaking:

LOCKE: You're pathetic.

[As Locke leaves he hears a voice]

VOICE: Help me.

[Locke turns]

LOCKE: What did you just say?

BEN: I—I didn't say anything.

LOCKE: Oh yes you did. I heard you, [raises the flash-light] you said...

[Suddenly the room takes on a life of its own. Chairs rock, glass smashes, the lantern catches fire and windows shatter]

BEN: [To the chair] That's enough, you've had your fun!

[Ben is thrown back against the wall. For a brief moment, a figure is seen in the chair, followed by a closeup of an eye. Locke runs out of the cabin. Ben walks, shaken, from the cabin a moment later. Pause]

LOCKE: What was that?

BEN: That was Jacob.

I'm not sure I can go along with the idea that Ben was happy to play along when the room started shaking. If you watch the scene back there is a clear look of panic on Ben's face when Locke raises the torch prior to the cabin shaking violently. Then Ben runs over to the chair and tries to stop what's going on before being thrown back hard. If there was briefly a figure seen in the chair (I'm hazy about the figure being seen in the chair itself though the transcript says there was) then all of this surely points to the idea that Ben had some degree of knowledge over a presence in the cabin.

The idea that Richard knew about a presence there and told Ben would seem a theory I could accept. Unless the writers are making it up as they go along, I think Ben knew more than he let on to UnLocke.

cooker3

There was definitely a figure in the chair and also you saw "Jacobs eye"
I assumed it was Locke for ages but I watched the episode with DVD commentary for the first time a few weeks back and Darlton pointed it out.

It was also interesting to note they said Horace wife and Annie would play an important role in the future and yet they have never been seen again. I wonder why the change of plan.

SP theory seems solid. Of course I still wonder why UnLocke asked Ben about that incident in season 5 finale other then for the viewers benefit especially when it seems it was him who said help me in the cabin.

Sad Professor

cooker3 wrote: »

It was also interesting to note they said Horace wife and Annie would play an important role in the future and yet they have never be seen again. I wonder why the change of plan.

I believe they tried to get the actress who played Horace's wife to come back last season but she was unavailable. Amy was her substitute. And I presume Annie will pop up again at some stage. Although last season seems like it would have been the natural time for her to do so. But we don't really know what happened to young-Ben after he returned from the Temple. This will have to be filled in, so maybe she'll show up then.

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

The idea that Richard knew about a presence there and told Ben would seem a theory I could accept.

There's a problem with this though, as Ben and Locke went back to the cabin in season 4 and Ben really seemed to believe that it was Jacob who gave Locke their orders. It was on the basis of this that he moved the island.

How about this:

Maybe at some point Ben followed Richard when he went to visit Jacob. And he saw Richard approach the cabin and maybe adjust the line of ash or whatever. Ben thinks he's found Jacob. But after Richard has left, he visits the cabin himself and finds it empty, so he thinks either a) Jacob no longer lives here, or b) Richard was lying to me and there is no Jacob. So when he brings Locke out there he does believe he's talking to an empty chair, etc, but after everything goes crazy he starts to think the entity must be Jacob and he just couldn't see him. This is why he refuses to enter the cabin the second time and quite willingly passes the torch to Locke.

Although there's some question over whose cabin it was post-Horace. When Ilana and co visit it in the season 5 finale, she says:

ILANA: He isn't there, hasn't been in a long time. Someone else has been using it. [Shouting to her team] Burn it!

Does she mean:

1 - [Jacob] isn't here, hasn't been in a long time. [Esau] has been using it.
or
2 - [Esau] isn't here, hasn't been in a long time. [Christian] has been using it.

I know she was working for Jacob, but she also seemed to know about Esau and may have been visiting the cabin to confirm her suspicion (if the body wasn't enough) that Locke was Esau.

tok9

the way ben goes back to the chair and says you'e had your fun really makes it look like he knows someone is there.

Also how would he know about him disliking technology? I'd say the writers had another idea for this but had to scrap it

Sad Professor

tok9 wrote: »

the way ben goes back to the chair and says you'e had your fun really makes it look like he knows someone is there.

Look at the way he puts his hands on the chair though. If he could see someone in the chair he would have put his hands on their shoulders, not the back of the chair - it looks fake. Many people pointed this out at the time.

Again, I think Ben was just playing along, without thinking too much. He didn't get to be such a good liar by confessing every time one of his plans went wrong. He's such a good liar because he adapts, we've seen time and time again with him.

Also how would he know about him disliking technology? I'd say the writers had another idea for this but had to scrap it

How do we know Esau dislikes technology? Maybe he's fine with it, but he heard Ben going on about it and decided to pipe up at that moment. Or maybe both Jacob and Esau dislike it.

I'm presuming what Ben said in the season 5 finale is true, which means he most likely had no knowledge of Esau. I see no reason for him to lie to Locke at that stage, especially since what he said was embarrassing for him.

tok9

I'm not sure what to think really... he looks surprised a few times alrite...

the good thing was that its Ben we're talking about so no one really knows what to believe

cooker3

Sad Professor wrote: »

I'm presuming what Ben said in the season 5 finale is true, which means he most likely had no knowledge of Esau. I see no reason for him to lie to Locke at that stage, especially since what he said was embarrassing for him.

I don't know. Didn't he lie to Sun about his star sign. I know it's a minor thing but to me it showed he is almost an compulsive lier. I wouldn't rule it out totally.
As an aside what a great way for the writers to get themselves out of a hole or change a plan. Just keep saying he is lying.