Endurance cycling - training tips

ROK ON

Lots of threads on training which is interesting, so I will add one more.

My two main cycling goals for next year are multi day events. One over 4 days and one over five. They will involve average daily distance of 180km.
Advice is required as to how to approach training.
At present I have a diet plan which is working ok. Apart from 25km round trip commute 3 days a week I can only get out for one long cycle at weekends.

In general I won't need to get faster per se. I will need to climb faster but I have a weight plan and hill repeat work to look after this.

I am more interested in building the type of fitness/form that will enable me to be in the saddle for up to 10hrs a day for 4days.
Any training advice. I know I can do the distance on any given day. I want to put it back to back.

Caroline_ie

what events are you planning on doing if you don't mind me asking?

blorg

Getting out and doing it I reckon. Long miles in the legs. I found the Tour of Ireland a lot harder than the Raid although by any measure the Raid is a lot tougher. I think I was just in better shape by the time that rolled around. If we do organise a Boards Tour of Ireland for early-ish next season that would probably be a good idea.

For what it is worth with the multi-day stuff with me it gets worse on the second day but after that it then gets easier. I have ended each multi-day thing thinking I could bash out the same daily mileage the next day should I want/have to.

Also for the Raid getting in some practice with those sort of length climbs will be essential, first experience of them having to do 19 in a row would be a very bad idea, they are tough enough one by one.

ROK ON

A charity event in aid of Down Syndrome Ireland called Tour de Munster. On in August involving600km thru the 6 beautiful counties of Munster.
Then Raid Pyrenean in early Sept.
If I could get a reasonable multi day training in May that would be great and I plan ob holidaying in Pyrenees in late June.

MadHatter

Get a coach. A real life one, not a book.

A good coach can assess your current abilities and available time and then tailor a plan to meet your goals. Any training tips you get from here, while well intentioned, may contribute nothing to your goal or may even have a negative impact.

Sounds like these events are important, possibly once-in-a-lifetime opportunities? If they are worth doing, they are worth doing properly.

My $0.02.

Raam

ROK ON wrote: »

Apart from 25km round trip commute 3 days a week I can only get out for one long cycle at weekends.

Do you have a turbo trainer? If you really can't get out of the house, you could probably spare an hour to jump on the trainer.

MadHatter

Re the 25km commute - do you have the time to extend this?

Like you, I commute through the Phoenix Park. Generally in the mornings I try to add additional kms with a couple of laps in the park, or do specific workouts on some of the quieter sections away from traffic. Even in darkness, it's relatively safe to cycle in.

I know it's boring as hell cycling round in circles but for these endurance events it'll be all about the miles in the legs so this is an easy way to increase your weekly mileage.

ROK ON

@Madh. I often extend the commute but current roadworks interfere with my loop.
Many weeks I take a 60km midweek spin as well as an 80-120km weekend spin.

I have a plan of rising at 5am to do 3 hrs pre work as well as longer weekend spin.

What I am getting is that best training is simply getting on the bike repeatedly.

lukester

In case you haven't seen it already, there's helpful advice on the training section of ultracycling.com

scottreynolds

2/3 Long Cycles per week Long being 4 hours +. As you get closer to the event a few back to back rides. I did 3 weekends where I did 100 miles twice on consecutive days at a good pace. These sessions were key for me as: (and Blorg alluded to it)

- Day 2 + I was already running on empty s the body reacts differently.
- Eating and sleeping become more important.
- I bonked once on Day 2 and then knew what to expect and how to resolve it.

The more you cycle the easier it is.... Blorg has done more cycling in the past so needed less training. Just aim to get as many 100 mile + rides in I'd say. Do some interval training (like 2x20 minutes) once a week.

scottreynolds

MadHatter wrote: »

Get a coach. A real life one, not a book.

Of course this works well as well.

MadHatter

ROK ON wrote: »

What I am getting is that best training is simply getting on the bike repeatedly.

That would be a large part of it alright. But there would be additional elements to consider - how to build up the distances as you work towards the event, how to taper as the event approaches, how to cope with injury, unforeseen breaks in training etc, how to assess your progress and feed this back in to your training. That's were the coach would be beneficial.

ROK ON

Scott can you send me link to the coach that you used please.

scottreynolds

ROK ON wrote: »

Scott can you send me link to the coach that you used please.

http://www.rutheyles.co.uk/

MadHatter

One other thing to note - looks like the Tour de Munster is mid-Aug and Raid is early-Sept, so there's relatively little time between the events. Since the Tour is your first multi-event it'll take lots out of you and your body will be pretty much thrashed. This will make you susceptible to illness and injury in the following days/weeks.

Rapid recovery will be essential if you're to be ready for the second event. It'd be useful to do a bit of research in this area to see what recovery strategies are recommended (again, a coach can help here). It'd be a shame to put all the training in for the 2 events only to come with something in the couple of weeks in between events.

rottenhat

This is an interesting one for me also with Mille Cymru on the agenda for next summer. It's slightly different in that it breaks down more like 3 x 300, then a final push of 100, and I have a feeling you won't be sleeping on the floor of a village hall during the nights, but I guess it would be close enough.

I am loosely following a training plan from Simon Doughty's book - it's not exactly a very detailed plan, just a number of kms for each week, which equates to the distance of your longest ride that week, and the sum of other kms you should be putting in over the rest of the week in shorter rides (all very well at the start of the plan where you're talking about numbers like 80km, a bit different at the end where it's 200-400k with the occasional rest week). But basically it follows the ideas that you always see - increase distances gradually, by around 10% a week, and throw in a rest week every 4-6 weeks to allow your body to adapt.

In practice this will boil down to doing every audax ride in the calendar, and filling in with solo 200s or sportives (depending on the date, I'm thinking of riding to the Mount Leinster Challenge, for instance, to build it up to the necessary distance).

Edit: although I notice that you say you don't need to work on pace, you'll see from the articles on the ultracycling website that many of them do recommend doing some work on speed, simply because going faster = less time on the bike = more time to recover. Therefore I'm aiming to use club rides over the winter to increase my pace on what now feel like relatively short rides (80-90km).

ROK ON

Rottenhat. Have come to similar conclusion bout riding to sportives next year.
IIRC one boardsie rode to and home from WW200.

rottenhat

ROK ON wrote: »

Rottenhat. Have come to similar conclusion bout riding to sportives next year.
IIRC one boardsie rode to and home from WW200.

I'm sure many of us did, but the man you're thinking of is Cunavalos, who lives near Clonmel.

Will you be joining us on the audax rides next year? In terms of training the body for recovery, I would think even up to 400 might be worthwhile (although that's just idle speculation...others, feel free to contradict).

redmaxi

Paul Sheridan who organises the TDeMunster takes a group out 2 nights a week from Cork. Starting from mid April. He maintains he can get a complete beginer ready for the event in mid August - and he does. First night last year was 52k long and averaged 28.1 KMPH. It seems a bit high for begineers but the peloton is kept tight and very well controlled. Throw in a few 100k runs on Saturdays and 5 sportives and your set !.

Enduro

blorg wrote: »

For what it is worth with the multi-day stuff with me it gets worse on the second day but after that it then gets easier. I have ended each multi-day thing thinking I could bash out the same daily mileage the next day should I want/have to.

I've a multi-day adventure racing backgound and the above rings very true indeed. Day one is hard since you're in at the deep end. Day two is hard because you're still getting used to it, and you're a bit wrecked after day one. By day three your getting used to it, and getting into "the zone". After that they all seem the same, pretty much

Enduro

MadHatter wrote: »

One other thing to note - looks like the Tour de Munster is mid-Aug and Raid is early-Sept, so there's relatively little time between the events. Since the Tour is your first multi-event it'll take lots out of you and your body will be pretty much thrashed. This will make you susceptible to illness and injury in the following days/weeks.

Yikes! If its your fist time doing this type of thing, I'd say they are way too close. You're very unlikely to be properly and fully recovered in time for the second one. I try to leave a minimum of one month between big effort events, if possible, and most people would consider that a bit tight. More than likely something has to give there.

DirkVoodoo

I rode to and from the W200!

A whopping 16km added on to the day

blorg

Enduro wrote: »

Yikes! If its your fist time doing this type of thing, I'd say they are way too close. You're very unlikely to be properly and fully recovered in time for the second one. I try to leave a minimum of one month between big effort events, if possible, and most people would consider that a bit tight. More than likely something has to give there.

I would generally agree and would have posted similar if it was a complete newbie saying they want to do this, however ROK_ON is a pretty experienced cyclist who has done these distances in single days and that is almost a year away.

On the other hand it is worth considering priorities.

I do think doing preparatory events before though would be advisable. I did the TOI (by far the toughest multi day thing I did) and then found touring around Sardinia the next week much tougher than I expected, although we were going at a relaxed pace not doing mega distances. Normally I would have dropped my girlfriend like a rock on the climbs but here she was keeping up with me, even overtaking and saying "you know, you could go faster!" Something was wrong, very wrong.

I then found the Raid easy enough but found cycling around Ireland a week later far harder.

So if the Raid is the primary goal for the season then the Tour de Munster so soon before might not be the best idea.

ROK ON

I have been asked by a relative to do the TdM and I couldn't say no. Thought about it this year but the charity didn't really suit my fundraising goals.

The Raid is pure ambition and goal setting. That one I will be doing for me.

If we can get a boards TOI arranged (suggest around Paddys day) then I will have a good idea as to recovery from distances.

Thanks for the advice however as it is not something I consixered.

What I would say is that after the Raid I wouldn't need to look at a bike for months, so if I am spent then so be it.

Btw Blorg you still haven't put up your Raid diary.

blorg

Doing the Raid after the Tour de Munster is by no means impossible. You will just need to be well hard by then. I would tend to leave as much as possible between them, weather etc permitting. Two weeks would be plenty if that is possible. I did mine with one but reckon two would have been better.

I will get back on putting up my Raid diary- almost have Sicily ready, then will work on the Raid.

Enduro

ROK ON wrote: »

The Raid is pure ambition and goal setting. That one I will be doing for me.

Remember that when you're doing the TdM, and don't push yourself in any way on it. Just use it as a series of long slow rides to put in time on the saddle. That can be hard to do if you're the competitive kind (especially if you're competitive with yourself, if you know what I mean), but always keep your eye on the bigger picture.

rottenhat

blorg wrote: »

Normally I would have dropped my girlfriend like a rock on the climbs but here she was keeping up with me, even overtaking and saying "you know, you could go faster!" Something was wrong, very wrong.

This is a touching picture of domestic bliss which I will treasure for the rest of my days.

Lumen

I spent some time reading the UltraCycling site last night, and was surprised by how little volume is required to get in shape for really long (12-24hr) cycles.

It seems that a (proper imperial) century every weekend and a couple of fast sessions during the week is sufficient.

This could mean as little as 250km a week altogether, which doesn't seem that much.

I guess the important thing is learning to cycle slowly (which I think takes enormous discipline, unless you're naturally laid back) and being patient while your letting your gycogen storage, fat burning and digestive systems gradually improve.

Also, there does seem to be an element of "fast, far, pick one" which makes club racing and epic distance cycling somewhat incompatible (although I know there are people who manage to do both, I suspect that the training and sleeping required would preclude meaningful employment).

Beasty

Lumen wrote: »

(proper imperial)

Thanks for reassuring me you have not dropped all links with your past:)

Ryder

Carmichael advocates interval training as a substitute for lsd for distance riding. Seems to be a lot of supporting research.

Lumen

Ryder wrote: »

Carmichael advocates interval training as a substitute for lsd for distance riding. Seems to be a lot of supporting research.

Can't remember whether I read Carmichael or not, but the theory seems to be that since the further you are from your threshold the slower you fatigue, it makes sense to do a bit of work to raise your threshold, provided it doesn't get in the way of the distance work.

The problem I've found with this is that it's easy to get fixated on threshold raising and be too knackered to get the miles in.

@rottenhat: thanks for the Doughty book reference, I ordered it last night

scottreynolds

Ryder wrote: »

Carmichael advocates interval training as a substitute for lsd for distance riding. Seems to be a lot of supporting research.

I'd say its a mixture.... there's zero substitute for 6 hours of your arse getting a pounding in the saddle.... For me sitting in the saddle that long was as much of a problem as the fitness.

Ryder

Thats a fair point Lumen. His book is well worth a read. The approach suits me because of time limits but i think i will adapt his plan and try to get 100k rides at the weekend in jan. My goal is the etape so prob a little different to yours

blorg

I have seen research (probably linked from here) that showed similar adaptions from interval training as long base miles all right. The former being more time-efficient.

What Scott says is very true though, sitting on a bike for 8 hours day after day is tough as well, even if you have the fitness.

Bambaata

Anyone know any sites with long turbo sessions. the only ones i can find are all less than 90mins. Trying to find some aerobic endurance 2hr+ ones if possible. have a tacx flow so i can change slope etc too

hinault

rottenhat wrote: »

I'm sure many of us did, but the man you're thinking of is Cunavalos, who lives near Clonmel.

Will you be joining us on the audax rides next year? In terms of training the body for recovery, I would think even up to 400 might be worthwhile (although that's just idle speculation...others, feel free to contradict).

Have I got this right? He rode from Clonmel - did the W200 - and then rode home?
In one day?

hinault

blorg wrote: »

Doing the Raid after the Tour de Munster is by no means impossible. You will just need to be well hard by then. I would tend to leave as much as possible between them, weather etc permitting. Two weeks would be plenty if that is possible. I did mine with one but reckon two would have been better.

I will get back on putting up my Raid diary- almost have Sicily ready, then will work on the Raid.

Myself and couple of former racers went to Sicily 4 years ago for one of the lads 40th birthday.
We decided to bring the bikes and make it a touring holiday/pissup.

Great time : Sicily is a really nice place to go to ride/train.
Let me know if you need info about Sicily

rottenhat

hinault wrote: »

Have I got this right? He rode from Clonmel - did the W200 - and then rode home?
In one day?

That would have been a strong move, but I think he actually rode up on the Saturday, did the 200 on the Sunday, and then home on Monday...maybe the man himself will confirm. I'm hoping to raise the ante next year by riding to Enniscorthy from Dublin, doing the Mount Leinster Challenge, and then riding home, but until then I think Cunavalos is the winner.

(Well, probably Blorg is the winner...I'm sure he's done something that makes that look like a walk in the park)

hinault

rottenhat wrote: »

That would have been a strong move, but I think he actually rode up on the Saturday, did the 200 on the Sunday, and then home on Monday...maybe the man himself will confirm. I'm hoping to raise the ante next year by riding to Enniscorthy from Dublin, doing the Mount Leinster Challenge, and then riding home, but until then I think Cunavalos is the winner.

(Well, probably Blorg is the winner...I'm sure he's done something that makes that look like a walk in the park)

Even if he rode Clonmel - Dublin (saturday), W200 (Sunday) and Dublin - Clonmel (Monday) is a great achievement .
340 miles over three days is good going!

rottenhat

hinault wrote: »

Even if he rode Clonmel - Dublin (saturday), W200 (Sunday) and Dublin - Clonmel (Monday) is a great achievement .
340 miles over three days is good going!

This is what happens when you let GAA players have bikes.