Prime Time - Leaving the church feature II

axer

Hi all,

I heard that next week "Leaving the Church" will be featured on Prime Time.

I don't know what day or anything else.

Anyone know more?

Regards,
Noel

Wacker

axer wrote: »

Regards,
Noel

Oh dear, I'm I the only one getting Kelly1 flashbacks?!?

No disrespect intended to the gent and scholar that is Kelly1. I'd have a similair response if you ended your post with, for instance, Cordially, Scofflaw.

Turtwig

Wacker wrote: »

Oh dear, I'm I the only one getting Kelly1 flashbacks?!?

No disrespect intended to the gent and scholar that is Kelly1. I'd have a similair response if you ended your post with, for instance, Cordially, Scofflaw.

Doesn't kelly1 usually end with

"God Bless,"
"Noel"

axer

Wacker wrote: »

Oh dear, I'm I the only one getting Kelly1 flashbacks?!?

No disrespect intended to the gent and scholar that is Kelly1. I'd have a similair response if you ended your post with, for instance, Cordially, Scofflaw.

Lol, I didn't even realise I had added that. Thats what happens when you post in boards in between sending 20 odd emails.

lostexpectation

fine aslong as they get a spokesperon from the church, and not some nutcase( or dq)

or was that supposed on thursday according to cmo, seems they bumped it. as they always do.

condra

I also hope it will be balanced.

ArthurDent

not sure if its same one, but there is meant to be a piece about religion / schools on Primetime tonight - could still be bumped though

cavedave

I'm told Grainne from countmeout is supposed to be on.

Red Sleeping Beauty

Ivana Bacik just said that the state shouldn't be funding "sectarian schools". Wow, I'm slightly impressed by her.

"We catholics, we pay our taxes and we have aright to educate our children" - this guy is unbelievable. Ireland's a catholic state apparently!


I agree the state shouldn't be funding sectarian schools. We're in a bit of a pickle though cause nearly every school would be out of money if they didn't! Can't see an easy solution to this one and I doubt there will be one under FF

Red Sleeping Beauty

Also, ironic RTE airing this programme while they still have the angelus on before the 6.01PM news?

Flamed Diving

cavedave wrote: »

I'm told Grainne from countmeout is supposed to be on.

The fox...

axer

It wasn't too bad. I'm glad this is finally being discussed more openly. There were some very good points made with regards to how ridiculus the situation is in Ireland.

eoin5

Aannyways, the piece was great at the start. That was crazy with the 'non-denominational' school saying prayers over the intercom. I thought the discussion was a bit unproductive with neither speaker engaging any point the other made. The main point I took from it is that the priest guy was in favour in mob rule it seemed.

axer

eoin5 wrote: »

Aannyways, the piece was great at the start. That was crazy with the 'non-denominational' school saying prayers over the intercom. I thought the discussion was a bit unproductive with neither speaker engaging any point the other made. The main point I took from it is that the priest guy was in favour in mob rule it seemed.

It did show the importance for people putting down their correct religion (or highlighting that they do not have a religion) on the census form. That idiot of a priest (or whatever he was) spewing out crap like 90% of Irish people are catholics and suggesting that that is a mandate for a sectarian catholic Ireland.

Sam Vimes

Alan Rouge wrote: »

I agree the state shouldn't be funding sectarian schools. We're in a bit of a pickle though cause nearly every school would be out of money if they didn't! Can't see an easy solution to this one and I doubt there will be one under FF

They could stop being sectarian schools

fisgon

I thought one thing that David Quinn said was fascinating. He talked about the fact that some within the church, some catholics, actually want more provision of non-religious schools.

The logic behind this, according to him, was that then the real catholic schools would then be freer, if they didn't have to cater to the children of the non-religious and to children of other religions, to teach real catholicism. They feel now a bit restricted from teaching the hard doctrine as their schools have to cater to everyone, but in a situation where only children of committed catholics went to catholic schools they would be more able to break out the 10 commandments, the 7 deadly sins, guilt, fear of sex, marian worship, the whole gamut of indoctrination that any of us in primary school before 1990 would have had to soak in. Apparently the approach in catholic schools at the moment is too touch-feely for some of the hard-core. I can understand this, and also find it a little disturbing too, though would love to see it happen. I think the demand in this country for this kind of rigid following of doctine, even among practising catholics, is pretty small, maybe 20% of people. It wouldn't last long.

kowloon

Alan Rouge wrote: »

Ivana Bacik just said that the state shouldn't be funding "sectarian schools". Wow, I'm slightly impressed by her.

It's just a pity about everything else she says about anything else.

Red Sleeping Beauty

My secondary school alma mater claims to be "multidenominational". You didn't have to guess what the one overriding religion was though. There was a catholic priest, oratory, the jesus pictures, crucifixes, the whole nine yards. They tried to claim they taught "religious education" as in all religions but it was a bit of a joke.

lostexpectation

pluralism for the the catholic church means domination by the them

spacetweek

For those of us that didn't see the program, can someone summarise it for me?

As for comments about funding "sectarian churches", this isn't a soluble problem. A literal implementation of this would result in practically no school having any funding at all.

Sam Vimes

spacetweek wrote: »

For those of us that didn't see the program, can someone summarise it for me?

As for comments about funding "sectarian churches", this isn't a soluble problem. A literal implementation of this would result in practically no school having any funding at all.

Until they stopped being sectarian.....

Turtwig

spacetweek wrote: »

For those of us that didn't see the program, can someone summarise it for me?

As for comments about funding "sectarian churches", this isn't a soluble problem. A literal implementation of this would result in practically no school having any funding at all.

Watch it here...

Antbert

While it does annoy me that people who maybe go to mass at xmas insist on putting 'catholic' down on census forms, I still don't see why it should have any relevance. We're supposed to be a secular state so it shouldn't matter if 99.9% of the population was catholic.

axer

Antbert wrote: »

We're supposed to be a secular state so it shouldn't matter if 99.9% of the population was catholic.

Yes, supposed to be...

philologos

Alan Rouge wrote: »

My secondary school alma mater claims to be "multidenominational". You didn't have to guess what the one overriding religion was though. There was a catholic priest, oratory, the jesus pictures, crucifixes, the whole nine yards. They tried to claim they taught "religious education" as in all religions but it was a bit of a joke.

Dare I ask what the problem is in having an oratory? Surely a place to pray for students is a means of respecting those students who do have faith?

I don't think having a oratory is a bad thing even for a school with no religious ethos to have as a means of facilitating students who do believe.

Dave!

Jews might find it difficult to pray to God when there's effigies of Jesus swinging from the oratory walls.

It's off-putting and disrespectful to expect someone to pray in front of a false prophet.

Red Sleeping Beauty

Jakkass wrote: »

Dare I ask what the problem is in having an oratory? Surely a place to pray for students is a means of respecting those students who do have faith?

I don't think having a oratory is a bad thing even for a school with no religious ethos to have as a means of facilitating students who do believe.

Nothing wrong at all but c'mon, we gotta call a spade a spade here! It was a defacto Catholic chapel given the oratory name. As Dave touchéd there, with pictures of the Virgin Mary and Jesus on the walls it just becomes a bit of a farce.

In first year we were marched from religion class ("religious education" they called it) to the oratory for confession for feck sake!
I'm talking late 90s here btw.

spacetweek

Alan Rouge wrote: »

In first year we were marched from religion class ("religious education" they called it) to the oratory for confession for feck sake!
I'm talking late 90s here btw.

Holy ****! Even though I went to a school run by priests, with an oratory, we were never made do stuff like confession. You should have had your parents complain to the school.

axer

spacetweek wrote: »

Holy ****! Even though I went to a school run by priests, with an oratory, we were never made do stuff like confession. You should have had your parents complain to the school.

It was the same for me also but my parents are catholics and it didn't look like we as students had a choice with regards confessions. If only I knew then what I know now.

Mike 1972

It did show the importance for people putting down their correct religion (or highlighting that they do not have a religion) on the census form.

Those who do not answer are recorded as "not stated" or "Indefinite answer"

Its none of the Governments damn business and I see no reason to answer such a question and lots of reasons not to.

Coriolanus

Jakkass wrote: »

Dare I ask what the problem is in having an oratory? Surely a place to pray for students is a means of respecting those students who do have faith?

I don't think having a oratory is a bad thing even for a school with no religious ethos to have as a means of facilitating students who do believe.

We had a reflection room, non-denominational, no religious paraphernalia at all, set aside from the busier parts of the school. Some used it to pray, some used it to do whatever they needed.

philologos

Nevore wrote: »

We had a reflection room, non-denominational, no religious paraphernalia at all, set aside from the busier parts of the school. Some used it to pray, some used it to do whatever they needed.

The reason I mention it is because I generally would pop into the oratory at my university to pray, and I think it is something that is beneficial for people. To take a minute away from it all and just share your concerns (even if you think nobody is listening) is important I think. It's probably good in some way for peoples mental health.

Coriolanus

Jakkass wrote: »

The reason I mention it is because I generally would pop into the oratory at my university to pray, and I think it is something that is beneficial for people. To take a minute away from it all and just share your concerns (even if you think nobody is listening) is important I think. It's probably good in some way for peoples mental health.

I'd agree that a place to take a minute and address your concerns, whether by praying, or just getting out of the slipstream to think quietly to oneself, is important. An oratory though, is a specifically religious surrounding.
Unless you're telling me you'd have been 100% comfortable praying to your God in a Shinto Temple or a mosque-like surrounding, you have to agree that it's only fair to either provide an individual area for each professed belief (or lack of) or else provide a neutral space usable by all.

axer

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Those who do not answer are recorded as "not stated" or "Indefinite answer"

A lot of people just put in catholic because there parents are catholic and because they were raised catholic - not because they actually believe the crap. That guy on Prime Time mentioned about 90% catholics in Ireland as if it is a mandate when the real figure is much less if people thought about what they put down there or just left it blank if they are not catholics i.e. don't believe etc.

Coriolanus

axer wrote: »

A lot of people just put in catholic because there parents are catholic and because they were raised catholic - not because they actually believe the crap. That guy on Prime Time mentioned about 90% catholics in Ireland as if it is a mandate when the real figure is much less if people thought about what they put down there or just left it blank if they are not catholics i.e. don't believe etc.

Or they were on the tear that weekend and their mammies filled in the census for them.

patmartino

Jakkass wrote: »

The reason I mention it is because I generally would pop into the oratory at my university to pray, and I think it is something that is beneficial for people. To take a minute away from it all and just share your concerns (even if you think nobody is listening) is important I think. It's probably good in some way for peoples mental health.

How is praying to a ficticious being good for your mental health.

axer wrote: »

A lot of people just put in catholic because there parents are catholic and because they were raised catholic - not because they actually believe the crap. That guy on Prime Time mentioned about 90% catholics in Ireland as if it is a mandate when the real figure is much less if people thought about what they put down there or just left it blank if they are not catholics i.e. don't believe etc.

I think we need to clarify what % of the people who say they are catholics are real christians who believe in God and obey the bible.

I watched the show and although it was typical RTE, the fact that it was discussed on TV at all is progress. I would like to see more critical in depth accurate programming that investigate the bible and the churches history in Ireland.

spacetweek

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Those who do not answer are recorded as "not stated" or "Indefinite answer"

Its none of the Governments damn business and I see no reason to answer such a question and lots of reasons not to.

There are lots of reasons to do so. Most people are inaccurately stating their religion, massively inflating the Catholic % from 40% to 86%. This is used as the justification for the continuing issuance of Catholic dogma in primary schools.

If you aren't religious, please don't contribute to this by inaccurately answering the census question.

patmartino

spacetweek wrote: »

There are lots of reasons to do so. Most people are inaccurately stating their religion, massively inflating the Catholic % from 40% to 86%. This is used as the justification for the continuing issuance of Catholic dogma in primary schools.

If you aren't religious, please don't contribute to this by inaccurately answering the census question.

Mammies of Ireland are you LISTENING

Mike 1972

spacetweek wrote: »

There are lots of reasons to do so. Most people are inaccurately stating their religion, massively inflating the Catholic % from 40% to 86%. This is used as the justification for the continuing issuance of Catholic dogma in primary schools.

Yes but if you dont answer the question at all you are not recorded as "Catholic" however Ill at least Im with you on one point namely

spacetweek wrote: »

If you aren't religious, please don't contribute to this by inaccurately answering the census question.

Its actually illegal to give false information on a census form (Leaving the religion question blank is okay though) maybe people should bear this in mind (as should those who blatently lie on the language questions)

philologos

If people identify as Catholic on the census, that's their choice, I don't see why telling people to put something else down is really necessary. If people really want to put no religion down, let them at it.

Ciaran500

Jakkass wrote: »

If people identify as Catholic on the census, that's their choice, I don't see why telling people to put something else down is really necessary. If people really want to put no religion down, let them at it.

Do you purposely miss absolutely every point made by atheists. Every post you make in here seems to be completely missing the point that has already been explained.

And the reason to not put down Catholic or let your parents put down Catholic if you're not Catholic:

axer wrote: »

That idiot of a priest (or whatever he was) spewing out crap like 90% of Irish people are catholics and suggesting that that is a mandate for a sectarian catholic Ireland.

spacetweek wrote:

There are lots of reasons to do so. Most people are inaccurately stating their religion, massively inflating the Catholic % from 40% to 86%. This is used as the justification for the continuing issuance of Catholic dogma in primary schools.

Sam Vimes

Ciaran500 wrote: »

Do you purposely miss absolutely every point made by atheists.

Whether it's done purposely or not, that very much appears to be the case

philologos

Ciaran500: It seems that some people are so concerned about what other people put down on the Census that they think rallying / campaigning online to get their point across is necessary. People will put down what they want to put down. Simple as surely?

Turtwig

Mike 1972

The problem of course is that many people are very fuzzy on the notion of what does or doesnt constitute a "Catholic". Part of it is down to the RC churches Once a catholic always a catholic line even those who excommunicated, convert to another religion, were bapised unwillingly or in early childhood are still claimed by the RCC as "Catholic" on the grounds that they might someday repent/return to the fold even where this is obviously about as unlikely as them changing their sexual orientation.

The fact that what the RCC says is pretty irrelevent doesnt really clarify matters that much since many of those who are not regular churchgoers still retain some vestiges of belief (albeit usually without giving the matter a great deal of thought) on the other hand some people who do still attend church (or go through the motions of marriage/christening/funerals) may be doing so largely out of lifelong habit or social/family pressure (which while obviously not as strong as in decades past hasnt entirely disappeared in some circles).

Even the "do you believe in the official RC line on .........." test isint a reliable measure since even amongst many dyed-in-the-wool Catholics there is a suprising low level of knowledge and understanding regarding the official teachings and tenets of the religion they claim to be adherants of. (Indeed I often suspect that if they were better educated in this regard many of them would begin to have an appreciation of the absurdity of much of it) A lot of non-Catholics actually know more about much of this stuff.

And this phenomen is hardly confined to either Catholics or the Republic of Ireland. Look at how many people in England will claim to be C of E or more generically "Christian" (and not just when trying to get their kids into a "good" school) or the degree to which people in Northern Ireland (and parts of Scotland) label themselves/each other as members of one or other "community" Even further afield look at countries in Europe (e.g. Germany or Italy) where it is actually financially advantageous to identify onself as non-religious in order to avoid the "Church tax" yet there are supisingly few takers.

Dades

Jakkass wrote: »

People will put down what they want to put down. Simple as surely?

You've been around here long enough to know the obvious flaw.

The Irish population has a very large percentage of young people (i.e. zero to still living at home) You can sure that a lot of these of don't fill out their own details or at least put down "catholic" for fear of the the wrath of mammy.

Any of the religion polls on Boards show a very low religiosity rate, which doesn't seem to be reflected by the "official" statistics.

Mike 1972

In fairness a boards.ie poll is hardly based on a representative sample either.

I think the point we are missing is there are a lot of people out there who while not falling into the category of "religious" cannot truly be termed "atheist" or "agnostic" either. Perhaps it is time the existence of another group (possibly even the largest one) in society was recognised. Those who have little time for organised religion but who dont really feel strongly enough about it or give the issue sufficient thought to qualify as atheist or agnostic

For want of a better word they could be termed the apathetic

spacetweek

Mike 1972 wrote: »

In fairness a boards.ie poll is hardly based on a representative sample either.

I think the point we are missing is there are a lot of people out there who while not falling into the category of "religious" cannot truly be termed "atheist" or "agnostic" either. Perhaps it is time the existence of another group (possibly even the largest one) in society was recognised. Those who have little time for organised religion but who dont really feel strongly enough about it or give the issue sufficient thought to qualify as atheist or agnostic

For want of a better word they could be termed the apathetic

There is a word for them: "spiritual". A spiritual person believes in God, souls and an afterlife but doesn't align with a particular religion. Actually in a country like Ireland, this is a very common position.

But because it's non-specific, on the Census form people just go for the default and mark themselves Catholic. Back to square one - schools run by religious orders, dogma, kids marched down to Mass without it being run past their parents, etc. The full monty.

Daftendirekt

Mike 1972 wrote: »

In fairness a boards.ie poll is hardly based on a representative sample either.

I think the point we are missing is there are a lot of people out there who while not falling into the category of "religious" cannot truly be termed "atheist" or "agnostic" either. Perhaps it is time the existence of another group (possibly even the largest one) in society was recognised. Those who have little time for organised religion but who dont really feel strongly enough about it or give the issue sufficient thought to qualify as atheist or agnostic

For want of a better word they could be termed the apathetic

Would 'theists' not be a better term?

bleg

I'm finally out! Took me 5 months of emails and letters to keep the pressure up but finally, I'm out.