[Article] Larionovo - Give me back my €440,000 life savings

The_Conductor

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/give-me-back-my-8364440000-life-savings-1939188.html

By Fiach Kelly

Wednesday November 11 2009

FATHER-of-three Alan O'Neill remortgaged his home and ploughed his pension, personal savings and money set aside for his children's education into the Dubai scheme.

The ice salesman, from Ballycullen in south Dublin, travelled to Dubai before committing his money. He liked what he saw and hoped the investment would yield cash for his family's future. But now he has no idea where the €440,000 he put into the scheme four years ago is, or what it has been used for.

"I read about it in the papers and it sounded interesting," he said. "I went over and I was just sold on the Larionova idea and the concept.

"I've invested in four different properties with Larionovo. The first one was International City, which is now completed and I still don't have deeds or keys for it. I've seen the end product, the site. I've bought in Sports City -- Westgate is 60pc paid, again through Larionovo and Profile. The third property I bought was Snowdome through Larionovo and Profile and 32 group, which is 50pc paid.

"I've a €10,000 deposit paid on another one -- the Waterfront -- to Larionovo. I have no idea where that has gone."

He returned to Dubai again last year to see what progress had been made on the developments.

"I was over there twice last year and they were just up to sub-floor level. There were no problems at the start and all the indications were fantastic until Larionovo disappeared overnight.

"The last contact I had was around nine or 10 months ago and I've been trying to email them and had people email on my behalf but there's been no joy.

"I'm planning to go over there in December to find out for myself. I don't think it will be completed. I'd like my money back at the moment because I really need the cash at home."

super_furry

Pretty sad to hear. I mean you can point out the fact that he should never have left himself so open to something going wrong and being so reliant on this crowd with remortaging his home and putting everything he had into it, but still. Think he's still in denial that he'll ever see anything back too.

godtabh

Pure greed

super_furry

I don't think I'd call it greed - just naivety, ignorance and getting caught up in the hubris.

oflahero

super_furry wrote: »

I don't think I'd call it greed - just naivety, ignorance and getting caught up in the hubris.

There's getting caught up in the hubris, and then, there's a even a slight sense of personal responsibility. If you stick 'money set aside for your children's education' into a property scheme in a country you don't know anything about, it's pretty hard to be viewed as a just a poor innocent victim of the times.

TwoShedsJackson

Have to agree. It's all well and good making an investment, anyone's entitled to do that if they wish, but dumping everything into overseas property like that was just asking for trouble.

jmayo

super_furry wrote: »

I don't think I'd call it greed - just naivety, ignorance and getting caught up in the hubris.

Ah come on getting caught up in the hubris :rolleyes:
Hello personal responsibility.
There are numerous so called hardluck stories now appearing.
They are often not hardluck at all, but they are people who spent money that they never had, they had no concept of fiscal control, put all money into get rich quick schemes and now they are complaining when they either have no money or people want their money back.

The other week there was some guy from Waterford in paper whose wife left him, now isn't earning enough to pay mortgage and credit card debt.
He complained about MBNA chasing him.
The twist was he mentioned that along with remortgaging to do up the house, he got 10 or 15 grand credit limit on his card.
He thought he would never go that high, but lo and behold he did and is now getting chased for the repayments.
Hello why the hell did you run up such huge amount on your credit card ?

I went to a fair few property investment shows and you had to go with a sceptical mind just like if you went to a car dealer and not the fancy ones with the big showrooms (I am not that rich or don't borrow that much ).
There were just too many "great opportunitities" and some things just looked too good to be true.
As an old colleague used to say, "if it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck, then it bloody well is a duck".

I am surprised that someone who is supposedly in sales got taken in by the snake oil salesmen :rolleyes:

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

Have to agree. It's all well and good making an investment, anyone's entitled to do that if they wish, but dumping everything into overseas property like that was just asking for trouble.

There is an old proverb "don't put all your eggs in the one basket".
In this case the guy not alone put his eggs in the basket, he decided to borrow to put eggs he didn't even own in the basket.

Even if he decided to put all money into overseas property why not spread it around and invest in something in a mature more reliable market.
So yes I think there was an element of greed in his investing.
He went for the big returns, that were being promised.
He backed the 100/1 shot and the horse has now bolted.

Ps before people start saying I am heartless so and so, I have got burnt on an investment, but I only lost an amount that I could afford to lose and that is the difference.

stevedublin

smccarrick wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/give-me-back-my-8364440000-life-savings-1939188.html
ice salesman, .... €440,000

How do you make €440,000 selling ice!

omahaid

Hard to feel sorry for anyone who risks money set aside for their kids education.

ednwireland

just read this, hard to have any sympathy, the one thing about investments is never put your eggs in the same basket seems to be the golden rule.
i dont think he has any hope of getting his money back

personal responsibility.

and as an aside a couple of years ago i had to get an atlas out to find cape verde, yet people were throwing money at a place that had no direct flights to a lot of europe, yet it was the next big thing, i just lmao

Pete4779

super_furry wrote: »

I don't think I'd call it greed - just naivety, ignorance and getting caught up in the hubris.

There is getting caught in the hubris by buying a Mini Cooper S and getting caught in the hubris and remortgaging your home and buying 4 apartments in the middle of desert.

Mr. Presentable

Four properties!

How is it not greed? It was an investment and went wrong. What next, compensation for people's losses on the stock market? He has to suck it down.

AARRRGH

In fairness, I think some of you are being a bit harsh. I am all on for personal responsibility (I hate people who blame others for their mistakes) but it's not like this guy has 4 properties which are in negative equity -- he has nothing.

I don't know if he was scammed, but he was definitely screwed over.

So while I agree it was a bit naive to give all his money to one company (Larionovo) and of course he was trying to make a quick buck (nothing wrong with that), I think it was reasonable of him to assume he would actually get something back at the end of it, even if that's just four apartments in negative equity, so he has a right to feel hard done by.

Amhran Nua

stevedublin wrote: »

How do you make €440,000 selling ice!

You don't. You do that by remortgaging your house and putting the college fund in for good measure.

The long and the short of it is, he spent his money with a reasonable expectation of getting something back, at the very least some unprofitable apartments. From my reading of it he has got nothing so far, which is fraud at the minimum. No company is entitled to make promises, take money, and vanish.

mathie

Amhran Nua wrote: »

You don't. You do that by remortgaging your house and putting the college fund in for good measure.

The long and the short of it is, he spent his money with a reasonable expectation of getting something back, at the very least some unprofitable apartments. From my reading of it he has got nothing so far, which is fraud at the minimum. No company is entitled to make promises, take money, and vanish.

*cough* Bookmakers *cough*

'I'll have 400 grand on the favourite in the 1:30 please.'

...

'What it didn't win?'
'I'll have money back so.'
'Hello?!'

ZYX

AARRRGH wrote: »

In fairness, I think some of you are being a bit harsh. I am all on for personal responsibility (I hate people who blame others for their mistakes) but it's not like this guy has 4 properties which are in negative equity -- he has nothing.

I don't know if he was scammed, but he was definitely screwed over.

So while I agree it was a bit naive to give all his money to one company (Larionovo) and of course he was trying to make a quick buck (nothing wrong with that), I think it was reasonable of him to assume he would actually get something back at the end of it, even if that's just four apartments in negative equity, so he has a right to feel hard done by.

I agree here. He tried to invest his money. The people who took his money seem to have just taken his money. It is not as if it was a failed investment, it was money that was not actually invested. The comparison would be, put your money in the bank, the bank gets robbed, bank now says your money is all gone, people on boards say tough.

By the way to the people who complain about spending money he put aside for his kids education. We live in a country that is supposed to have free education. He shouldn't have to save money for his kids education

Quigs Snr

Mathie your analogy would be valid if instead of gambling on the 1:30 he had bought a horse which failed to win the 1:30. Fact is regardless of the gamble on the value of the property market, he still did buy apartments which have failed to materialise. Thats wrong.

Apart from that, not much sympathy from me.

ZYX

mathie wrote: »

*cough* Bookmakers *cough*

'I'll have 400 grand on the favourite in the 1:30 please.'

...

'What it didn't win?'
'I'll have money back so.'
'Hello?!'

More like "What the horse won enough to get most of my money back but you are now telling me you have no record of the bet?"

Diarmuid

Is there such thing as Financial Darwin Awards? 'cause this guy should win one.

omahaid

ZYX wrote: »

We live in a country that is supposed to have free education. He shouldn't have to save money for his kids education

We have free tuition fees, but there still a lot more charges and expenses associated with a child being educated in Ireland.

jmayo

Yes it is bad luck that the properties have failed to materialize and he is owed his properties or return of his money.

The damm big reason why I don't have pity for the guy is that he was stupid in that he invested it appears all with the one developer/agent in the one non stable location.
Added to this he was stupid and greedy because he actaully didn't just invest some spare cash he had, or some spare money he had put aside for retirement or for the kids educaiton, he actually re-mortgaged his home to invest even more money.

It would have been hard luck if he had invested with different developers/agents in different locations (i.e. countries and regions) and they all failed to materialise.
Then I would have pity for the guy.

stepbar

I'm more interested in the fact that he said that he invested his pension in the properties mentioned above. Knowing what I know about pensions it's not possible unless same is invested in property / other assets that's graspable under irish / uk law and he borrowed the balance at a specific LTV.

dresden8

ednwireland wrote: »

and as an aside a couple of years ago i had to get an atlas out to find cape verde, yet people were throwing money at a place that had no direct flights to a lot of europe, yet it was the next big thing, i just lmao

Would that have been because of "the great" Eddie Hobbs?

dazberry

stepbar wrote: »

I'm more interested in the fact that he said that he invested his pension in the properties mentioned above. Knowing what I know about pensions it's not possible unless same is invested in property / other assets that's graspable under irish / uk law and he borrowed the balance at a specific LTV.

It's likely he didn't have a pension and was doing this "as his pension". I've heard this fallacy a number of times.

Of course I feel sorry for the guy at a personal level, but like everyone else I bet he wasn't shy talking about it when it was all a sure thing.

D.

stepbar

dazberry wrote: »

It's likely he didn't have a pension and was doing this "as his pension". I've heard this fallacy a number of times.

Of course I feel sorry for the guy at a personal level, but like everyone else I bet he wasn't shy talking about it when it was all a sure thing.

D.

Well therefore it must have been a cash investment. In that case it was a poor investment strategy.

ZYX

omahaid wrote: »

We have free tuition fees, but there still a lot more charges and expenses associated with a child being educated in Ireland.

Not quite true. We have free education up to 18. There are charges associated with adults being educated in Ireland. That is somewhat different. Some parents choose support their adult children many don't.

godtabh

ZYX wrote: »

Not quite true. We have free education up to 18. There are charges associated with adults being educated in Ireland. That is somewhat different. Some parents choose support their adult children many don't.

Your first go at 3rd level is free. Thats where free education is capped regardless of your age.

If you were investing that much money surely you would check it out and make sure its is all legit and have all the relevant fail safes in terms of knowing who you are dealing with and how the process works in the event like this

omahaid

ZYX wrote: »

Not quite true. We have free education up to 18. There are charges associated with adults being educated in Ireland. That is somewhat different. Some parents choose support their adult children many don't.

Its not exactly free education though http://www.schooldays.ie/articles/education-expenses-survey-results-2009

astrofool

kearnsr wrote: »

Your first go at 3rd level is free. Thats where free education is capped regardless of your age.

There are all sorts of ongoing costs with 3rd level education for young adults. At cheapest you'll just have the reg fees + books + transport (if you live nearby), you could also have rent and food, or choose to go to a fee paying third level (possibly in another country).

godtabh

Wasnt this thread about some idiot?

jmayo

ednwireland wrote: »

just read this, hard to have any sympathy, the one thing about investments is never put your eggs in the same basket seems to be the golden rule.
i dont think he has any hope of getting his money back

personal responsibility.

and as an aside a couple of years ago i had to get an atlas out to find cape verde, yet people were throwing money at a place that had no direct flights to a lot of europe, yet it was the next big thing, i just lmao

Seen as you mention Cape Verde I would like to point out how knowledgeable some of the people selling in that market really were.
A few years back I used to frequent these overseas property shows.
Yes I was in the market and decided to do some digging and research.
Perish the thought I did research.

Anyway at one big show I came up to stand being manned by numerous fancily dressed snakeoil sales staff including one elderly gentleman supposedly with years investment and banking experience.

I had to point out to him his big sign for Cape Verdi was mispelled and the island nation isn't the same spelling as that of the Italian composer. :rolleyes:

Now if they couldn't get that much right, I thought what hope was there of
them getting you the forecast 20% capital gains and 5% ROI per annum :rolleyes:

Similarly I came across some very unorthodox payment methods for overseas property that involved banks on totally different continents.
If in doubt walk away is the best and safest motto.

joePC

I saw an RTE show early last year, I cant recall the name (It was about Irish property investments in foreign countries) but a property investor from Dublin said "I wouldn't invest in Dumdrum because I don't know Dundrum"

That resonated with me as a fair point, I've been to a couple of those property investment "Carnivals" in the RDS and I equate it to the House & Home exhibition, the same Brits flogging a load of shiiite.

€440,000 - SICK

thesource

Guys, I have met this guy and he's lost everything, fair enough his was naive but he got sucked in by these Larionovo / Profile scammers selling Sports City and other such developments. I know the types of people who sold these investments and they were very slick salesmen who knew the right buttons to press for people and knew who to pray on. In fairness to this guy he did go out to Dubai and meet the people invoved and see the site, whereas few overseas investors ever visit the country they were buying in.

At least he is putting his head up and trying to do something. There are thousands of people in the this country in the same boat and that are too embarrassed to do anything about chase their money.

The Dubai Action Group is now very organised, they are receiving solid legal advice and they have an experienced PR guy who is making sure it is a large news agenda. They have are clear strategy for the recovery of assets and compensation, which was undertaken successfully against a similar overseas property company called Kuvera earlier this year. So yes there is hope of compensation because the Commercial Court in Ireland is very quick and looks very unfavourably on the sharks who operated in this sector.

The_Conductor

thesource wrote: »

Guys, I have met this guy and he's lost everything, fair enough his was naive but he got sucked in by these Larionovo / Profile scammers selling Sports City and other such developments. I know the types of people who sold these investments and they were very slick salesmen who knew the right buttons to press for people and knew who to pray on. In fairness to this guy he did go out to Dubai and meet the people invoved and see the site, whereas few overseas investors ever visit the country they were buying in.

At least he is putting his head up and trying to do something. There are thousands of people in the this country in the same boat and that are too embarrassed to do anything about chase their money.

The Dubai Action Group is now very organised, they are receiving solid legal advice and they have an experienced PR guy who is making sure it is a large news agenda. They have are clear strategy for the recovery of assets and compensation, which was undertaken successfully against a similar overseas property company called Kuvera earlier this year. So yes there is hope of compensation because the Commercial Court in Ireland is very quick and looks very unfavourably on the sharks who operated in this sector.

Thats all well and good- but the guy is no different whatsoever from numerous other folk who made numerous investments in Irish property and similarly find themselves up the creek. There is a thread on PI at the moment from a guy lamenting the circa 20 investment properties his father purchased around Ireland over the course of a 15 year period that are now in negative equity and the rental income is not covering the mortgages (and wait until the interest rates go up- then the fun will really start). How is the guy who purchased units in Dubai any different from the guy who purchased what might have been considered a diverse portfolio around Ireland, any different?

The simple fact of the matter is that any investment is a gamble. Hell- walking out your front door in the morning is a gamble. You have to assess the risk involved and mitigate against the perceived risk. Irish people (in general) swung from being some of the most risk averse in the world- to being some of the most incredible gamblers in the course of a few years. The whole notion of risk assessment went out the window. People refused to acknowledge that risk even existed, and to the contrary- anyone who didn't partake in their ridiculous schemes- was held up as somehow stupid or lacking in intelligence.

Certainly I feel sorry for the guy in the article- as he has lost out- but what about the 320,000 in Ireland who are in negative equity (and rising)? While they may have a roof over their head- they owe far more than their roof will ever be worth- surely they are more deserving of your and my sympathy than the part-time property speculator who bought in Dubai (or the parents of the guy in PI- with their 20 properties around Ireland)?

What is lacking here- is people are unwilling to accept that they are responsible for their own actions. Someone else *has* to be to blame. The whole concept of both risk assessment/management and acceptance of responsibility- have been tossed out the window- and replaced with a 'poor-me' syndrome.

Our country is in serious trouble- and we are going to be in hock possibly for several generations- as we unravel the exuberance of the past 2 decades. People need to open their eyes and really see whats happening here.

irishh_bob

i think its important to point out a few things regarding this case , the company ( who shall remain nameless ) who sold this man theese properties in the mid east have gone into liquidation in the last 18 months , the same people are now under investigation by the fraud squad , many people were sucked in by thier snazzy promotional material , it was featured weekly in the sunday indo and promoted by the former property editor of the property section of the SINDO , the same guy ( ex editor ) happens to be dean of law at a well known dublin university , BTW , this same simeball who pimped appartments in dubai ( for the now bankrupt company ) used to have his own segment on the afternoon show around that time , in which he advised callers on various matters to do with consumer rights , its commonly known by those who bought property in dubai that this charlatan was a close friend of the directors of this now defunct agency

i know personal responsibility comes into play when you make an investment like this one but thier is a broader context when it comes to this particular case , the individual in question was burned by a rotten , corrupt outfit

dan_d

I don't know why this thread has been resurrected, but I'll add my 2 cents.
"Why do they call it common sense when it's so rare?"...

brianthebard

AARRRGH wrote: »

In fairness, I think some of you are being a bit harsh. I am all on for personal responsibility (I hate people who blame others for their mistakes) but it's not like this guy has 4 properties which are in negative equity -- he has nothing.

I don't know if he was scammed, but he was definitely screwed over.

That's all well and good but he didn't do his research, if he had he would've known this sort of thing is not uncommon in Dubai and other wealthy ME countries and is almost encouraged sometimes.