COMPULSORY TO JOIN UNION?

johneym

hi folks,
dont know if I am in the correct place or thread here.
I am a temporary employee. I was given a form to fill out upon starting which asked if I wanted to be part of the union siptu. I ticked no. Now I was called to HR on Friday 6th Nov. and told I have to join or my contract will be terminated?? I had till 3.30 to join. Needless to say I joined. Others temps who have just joined the firm had a similar fate. I checked the contract and sure enough its in it that you have to join!! But many in the firm are not in the union. It seems they have recently changed policy and the union people were seen visiting on many occasions. The union form I was forced to fill in said" I voluntarily join the union siptu" and I signed it.
Now I had always thought this was voluntary and no one could force you to join a union? I feel like siptu soehow have made a deal with my company to get money. And I feel like I am being taken advantage of. I am on close to minimum wage and the yearly union fees are over 250 euro.
Whats the legal stance on this? Anyone know?

Tom Young

It is absolutely not compulsory to join a union. Economic times like this make the concept of not joining repugnant to certain people in firms or semi-state bodies. Under no circumstances should you have been threatened with dismissal as a result of opting out of union membership.

The lead case on this is a case called Meskell v CIE the facts being somewhat similar. The Irish Constitutional principles of the unenumerated right to associate or dissociate stem from this.

Unfortunately legal advice is not available here, but I have set out the precept of the right above and gone someway to facilitating an answer to your question.

To repeat: the economic climate does not assist such matters of choice unfortunately. If you want to bring it further see here: www.citizensinformation.ie under the employment section and look for Rights Commissioner. If you can afford a solicitor that is your choice.

Tom

Darragh29

Tom Young wrote: »

It is absolutely not compulsory to join a union. Economic times like this make the concept of not joining repugnant to certain people in firms or semi-state bodies. Under no circumstances should you have been threatened with dismissal as a result of opting out of union membership.

The lead case on this is a case called Meskell v CIE the facts being somewhat similar. The Irish Constitutional principles of the unenumerated right to associate or dissociate stem from this.

Unfortunately legal advice is not available here, but I have set out the precept of the right above and gone someway to facilitating an answer to your question.

To repeat: the economic climate does not assist such matters of choice unfortunately. If you want to bring it further see here: www.citizensinformation.ie under the employment section and look for Rights Commissioner. If you can afford a solicitor that is your choice.

Tom

Be that as it may, what are the options in terms of action that could be taken in such a situation, leaving aside for a minute the nuclear option of an injunction which is beyond the means of someone on a minimum wage...

Unfortunately an employee in this situation has little to do I think other than run with the situation for the time being.

Tom Young

You go to the Rights Commissioner as I mentioned above.

Get it certified and off you go. Firing someone or even threatening same is wholly unacceptable.

Anyone in a HR department who is recruiting for a union to my mind has a major professional problem on their hands and any company who endorses such policies in the HR function should know better.

I'd suggest that an injunction in such circumstance might even be undertaken for free by a legal team (not that I speak for them).

Tom

Darragh29

Tom Young wrote: »

You go to the Rights Commissioner as I mentioned above.

Get it certified and off you go. Firing someone or even threatening same is wholly unacceptable.

Anyone in a HR department who is recruiting for a union to my mind has a major professional problem on their hands and any company who endorses such policies in the HR function should know better.

I'd suggest that an injunction in such circumstance might even be undertaken for free by a legal team (not that I speak for them).

Tom

Oh I couldn't agree more with you in terms of the clear wrong of the situation... But as for the remedy, I see where you are going with the Rights Commissioner Service at the LRC, and the fact that the business that the OP is working for appears to be highly unionised, I imagine a Rights Commissioner recommendation would be treated as a decision.

But if you found yourself in a situation, say if your employer was beligerant, whereby you had to have your rights enforced here, I'd say an injunction would be your only option. Unfortunately a Rights Commissioner recommendation is not legally binding, ok I accept that the OP probably would not have an issue on this front given that the workplace is unionised, but at the same time, if the OP was dismissed for refusing to join the union in this case, he/she would not be able to take a case to the Employment Appeals Tribunal for want of time served with the employer, and if someone else was hired immediately afterwards, and it took a few weeks/months for the case to come before a Rights Commissioner, it would be difficult to see a Rights Commissioner recommending that possibly someone else who was given the job, being taken out of it and then the OP placed back into it.

The Rights Commissioner would probably recommend compensation, which is a different thing from having a job at the moment...

There is something seriously smelly about a union of all organisations, being a party to some kind of a petty rule in operation in a workplace, that seeks to make people join a union. I mean you couldn't tell someone that they couldn't join a union...

Reloc8

Sorry missed this thread somehow.

In fact it is considered permissible to require on you starting work i.e. as part of your contract of employment before you sign up, that you join a nominated trade union and remain a member during your employment. The constitutionality of it appears questionable on its face but is untested and you'd have to say current law permits this. Its often referred to as the classic 'closed shop' by agreement with employer. I think Ireland has been found to be in breach of the European Social Charter for not preventing this by legislation (article 5 or 6 ?) but no case has been taken to challenge pre-employment conditions of this nature.

It is unconstitutional & unlawful to impose a requirement like this after you have agreed terms and started work and to treat you badly/differently dismiss you etc. if you refuse to do so.

Ireland is lagging behind other EU states in the area.

b.harte

Firstly,
Sorry for dredging up an old thread, I was going to start a new one but it is more in keeping with the above posts.

A quick question:
I am a shop steward where I work, we are represented by SIPTU.
For the last number of years there was been a feeling at work by the members and the committee that SIPTU are either incapable or unwilling to represent us in the manner we expect, or that we are paying for.
We have had 4 different representatives in the last 3 years because of SIPTU's reorganisation.
The union has failed to close important issues that have cost employees jobs and will do so again in the future, citing an unwillingness to take action now as no ones job is at risk "now" and action will be taken when the time comes.

The company we work for states in the contracts of employment that membership of the union is mandatory, and that SIPTU is the union that the company recognise.

However, given that a lot (haven't taken a ballot so can't give numbers) of the employees are unhappy with the union representation I have made enquires into the possibility of an alternative union representing us.
So my question is, given that it appears that we can't leave SIPTU can an unrecognised union represent workers in a dispute?
Is it sufficient to say that workers have a right to representation, and if the recognised union isn't performing to expectations then they (the workers) shouldn't be beholden to them, and that if workers become members of an alternative union then their right to representation (recognition notwithstanding) transfers to the "new" union?
In such case is it possible / permissible to be a member of two unions, (and yes I'm aware of the dual subscription cost) but I don't fancy testing the leaving Siptu impact on my contract of employment.
I am also aware that there would be questions over any agreements with Company/SIPTU.

Sorry for the ramble but I'm tired of the inaction by HQ and equally tired of the constant badgering I get from members at work.

Thanks,
Also, should anyone from SIPTU read this (given I'm not hiding behind an anonymous tag; you need to sort your house out before you chase ivory towers.:mad:

HellFireClub

b.harte wrote: »

Firstly,
Sorry for dredging up an old thread, I was going to start a new one but it is more in keeping with the above posts.

A quick question:
I am a shop steward where I work, we are represented by SIPTU.
For the last number of years there was been a feeling at work by the members and the committee that SIPTU are either incapable or unwilling to represent us in the manner we expect, or that we are paying for.
We have had 4 different representatives in the last 3 years because of SIPTU's reorganisation.
The union has failed to close important issues that have cost employees jobs and will do so again in the future, citing an unwillingness to take action now as no ones job is at risk "now" and action will be taken when the time comes.

The company we work for states in the contracts of employment that membership of the union is mandatory, and that SIPTU is the union that the company recognise.

However, given that a lot (haven't taken a ballot so can't give numbers) of the employees are unhappy with the union representation I have made enquires into the possibility of an alternative union representing us.
So my question is, given that it appears that we can't leave SIPTU can an unrecognised union represent workers in a dispute?
Is it sufficient to say that workers have a right to representation, and if the recognised union isn't performing to expectations then they (the workers) shouldn't be beholden to them, and that if workers become members of an alternative union then their right to representation (recognition notwithstanding) transfers to the "new" union?
In such case is it possible / permissible to be a member of two unions, (and yes I'm aware of the dual subscription cost) but I don't fancy testing the leaving Siptu impact on my contract of employment.
I am also aware that there would be questions over any agreements with Company/SIPTU.

Sorry for the ramble but I'm tired of the inaction by HQ and equally tired of the constant badgering I get from members at work.

Thanks,
Also, should anyone from SIPTU read this (given I'm not hiding behind an anonymous tag; you need to sort your house out before you chase ivory towers.:mad:

What you have outlined there, as I read it, is alien to me in relation to any PAYE job I've ever had. If you are unhappy with SIPTU in relation to the representation, (and I wouldn't blame you, they have been bought off by this government and the previous government), is this not something you need to petition your colleagues on, maybe have a ballot and dependent upon the outcome of that exercise, then approach your employer and suggest that discussions begin on mutually exploring the possibility of finding a new union? Don't forget obviously, it may well suit your employer to have the services of a lazy & bought off union like SIPTU in the house, as opposed to a more active union who could create more problems for them.

coylemj

HellFireClub wrote: »

Don't forget obviously, it may well suit your employer to have the services of a lazy & bought off union like SIPTU in the house, as opposed to a more active union who could create more problems for them.

+1 if the HR department is complicit in bullying employees to join a particular union, that says there is far too cosy a relationship.

Although there should be a relationship of some sort between the employer and the union, of it's nature it should be adversarial and not a collective conspiracy against employees who choose to exercise their right of non-association.

I recall doing a business course a few years ago and the lecturer told us that the Supreme Court had held (the case involved CIE) that the constitutional right of association had a reciprocal right of non-association which meant that an employer could not fire someone for not joining a specific trade union.

It's time for the employees to get different representation.

Reloc8

Just a wee bit further up the page

Tom Young wrote: »

The lead case on this is a case called Meskell v CIE

ldxo15wus6fpgm

Does freedom of association not cover this? Freedom of dissociation?

b.harte

Thanks to everyone who replied, some great pointers there.
I can't believe I didn't take more notice of the post further up, Meskell v CIE, food for thought indeed, but I was thrown a bit by conflicting information in the post saying it was okay to insist on starting but not afterwards, (post #6)
I'm just finished a night shift and just come off the phone from our newest union official, it was an "interesting" conversation.
One point that was raised was congress (ICTU) seem to have an agreement where by they may disallow membership if a person is already a member of another union, thereby propagating their own self serving agendas. The official was quite familiar with the above ruling but didn't see it as a licence to leave the "closed shop" without risking the employment.
I countered that if a member approached the company with a view to resigning their membership of the union and the company went to terminate employment, or threatened such action then the employee would have a valid complaint, so long as the employee was still a member of the union, albeit one expressing a desire to disassociate,then the Union are duty bound to represent the employee, even if the end result is the employee leaving the union.
I've also had a bit more time to digest some of the information I found thanks to your help. I have convened a meeting of the local committee with a view to tabling a motion that we look into the possibility of alternative representation, and ballot accordingly.
However, I have a suspicion that all ballots within work have to be sanctioned by both SIPTU and HR, I'm sure a workaround can be found.
On a slightly positive note, the conversation this morning seems to have been a bit of a wake up call, the response to our current pressing dispute was very forthcoming.

Thanks again,
I'm (finally) going to get my head down before going in again tonight a facing it all over again.

Tom Young

Journee Fierce Ringleader wrote: »

Does freedom of association not cover this? Freedom of dissociation?

Did you read my first post on this?

Payton

Interesting subject. Is there a way to lookup or a link to the Meskell v CIE case?

Tom Young

Might be here: http://www.ucc.ie/law/irlii/irliiindex/irliiindexdisp.php?ct=cca&yr=1991

Though not all cases are.

Tom

Procrastastudy

Payton wrote: »

Interesting subject. Is there a way to lookup or a link to the Meskell v CIE case?

Citation is [1973] 1 IR 121 - I cant find it on Bailii so you might try a free trial on Justis.ie

Tom Young

It is on Justis alright.

Procrastastudy

Tom Young wrote: »

It is on Justis alright.

I would like 5 minutes in a room with who ever is responsible for the search engines on Westlaw and Justis. I had to google it to find it on Justis as it will not find it if you use CIE. As for Westlaw.ie I almost always browse - the search engine is rubbish.

Tom Young

C.I.E. might be the issue! Search terms become a form of art after a while!

ldxo15wus6fpgm

Tom Young wrote: »

Did you read my first post on this?

Nope. Didn't have time. Fair play

Our man in Havana

Where would a person stand if they quit the union in a closed shop setup? Would dismissal be lawful?

The Skulls

OP, do you work for another transport company by any chance?😉
Seriously though, your best bet would to consult with a solicitor specialising in employment law, you'll need membership, a written rule book (drafted with assistance from aforementioned solicitor) & a negotiating licence from the dept of trade, enterprise & employment or whatever they're called these days.

Bear in mind though that your employer is not obliged to recognise another union & that you & any colleagues who 'defect' are not covered by any previous agreements negotiated by SIPTU. It can be done & has happened in the past but expect resistance from many if not all quarters.

It is not compulsory to join a trade union in this country; however do not be afraid to pursue the possibility of establishing an alternative trade union, if enough people join then the employer will soon realise they'll have no option but to do business/negotiate etc. In my experience a company's representatives don't really care who's sat on the other side of the negotiating table at the end of the day. Best of luck OP.

Victor

coylemj wrote: »

Although there should be a relationship of some sort between the employer and the union, of it's nature it should be adversarial and not a collective conspiracy against employees who choose to exercise their right of non-association.

Surely there is a vast distance between an adversarial relationship and a conspiracy against employees and there is avast area for reasonable, balanced behaviour.

The Skulls wrote: »

you & any colleagues who 'defect' are not covered by any previous agreements negotiated by SIPTU.

I'm not so sure about that, non-union staff can't be treated less favourably than union staff.

The Skulls

I'm not so sure about that, non-union staff can't be treated less favourably than union staff.[/Quote]


The details of certain agreements that may be industry specific & be applied to members of trade union X which is 'recognised' by the employer as opposed to trade union Y which might just upset the apple cart. Happened in my job several years ago.