[UTV] ISP charging for a outside contract cancel

Cabaal

I'm always one to say that the Terms & Conditons are important when signing up for a service but recently I've decided to end move providers.

Now thing is I'm with UTV who charge 60e for a In-Contract cancel and 30e for a Outide-Contract cancel, this is regardless of a full cancelation or a migfration of your service.

My query is just how can they justify such costs, now obviously it costs money to provision the line for ADSL initially and the vast majority of ISP's are smart enough to recoup these costs during your minimum contract period.

I can't specifically comment for Eircom but BT Wholesale in the UK do charge for a cease of the service but they don't charge the ISP for a migration of the service....does the same apply in Ireland?

If its the case that an ISP is not charged for a migration then how do they justify a 30e cancelation charge? Could it be worth persuing it as an unfair Term in the T&C's?

To my knowledge neither, BT, Eircom, Vodafone, Perlico, Imagine, Smart all do not charge a OUTSIDE contract termination fee, obviously it makes sense to charge a customer if they charge while still within a contract.

UTV Internet T&C's
http://www.utvinternet.com/Residential/ClicksilverBroadband/T&Cs/Clicksilver-BroadBand-ROI_TC_july_2008.htm

2.10 In the event that you move from the Premises, and you wish to continue to receive the Service, we shall terminate your Service and you will be required to register again for the Service and commit to the Minimum Period at our then current rates. If termination is during the Minimum Period you will be charged a cancellation fee as per the Price List.
2.11 In the event that you terminate your telephone account with Eircom or other authorised operator or you change the services on the telephone line on which you currently use the Service, so that the Service is unable to operate normally, your Service will terminate and you will be liable for the Charges during the Minimum Period.
2.12 Eircom or other authorised operator requests that we inform you that activation of the Service may result in you experiencing a temporary loss of your analogue Eircom or other authorised operator line and the loss of ISDN service. UTV Internet shall not be held liable to you for any losses or damages howsoever arising during such period of provisioning of the Service.
2.13 You acknowledge that the bit rates in respect of the Service, may be reduced by contention within the network from time to time and speeds are not guaranteed.
2.14 The cancellation fee during the Minimum Period is set out in the Price List.
2.15 The cancellation fee beyond the Minimum Period is set out in the Price List.

In Contract = £59.99
Outside Contract = £29.99


Vodafone's T&C's
http://www.vodafone.ie/terms/services/#vodafoneathome

3. After the Minimum Period or, if there is no Minimum Period, at any time, either party may terminate the Service on giving the other thirty (30) days’ written notice.

Eircom T&C's
http://www.eircom.ie/bveircom/pdf/BBStandardTandCsv2.pdf

Sponge Bob

It is a wholesale charge from eircom to utv , not so much one they 'made up' but you are right in saying that some others absorb it , see .

http://www.eircomwholesale.ie/dynamic/pdf/bitpricelistv6.0LL.pdf

Cabaal

Sponge Bob wrote: »

It is a wholesale charge from eircom to utv , not so much one they 'made up' but you are right in saying that some others absorb it , see .

http://www.eircomwholesale.ie/dynamic/pdf/bitpricelistv6.0LL.pdf

Thanks Bob I knew you'd come up with the goods,

Poor form that they charge for the migration instead of obsorbing it like everyone else, I think between the UK and Ireland they must be the only ISP that charge for a outside of contract cancel....atleast that I can recall


[EDIT]
Bob just would like your view on this
The document states:

As per clause 6 of the ADSL / ADSL 2plus Bitstream Service Description, Access
Seekers may choose one of two contract options: a minimum term per Bitstream port
or no minimum term but a cease fee per Bitstream port. Where the Access Seeker has
chosen the Bitstream contract without minimum term, the following charge applies:

This charge is not applicable to Access Seekers under the Standard Bitstream
Agreement Subject to a Minimum Term.

Am I incorrect in assuming that UTV took a no minimum term out for the service and as such thats why the fee applys?

If they had taken a minimum term (can't find specific details about this sadly)) then they wouldn't be charged this fee and as such would not need to pass it to the EU?

Do you have any details on the minimum term and whats entailed with it?

Sponge Bob

Not au fait with the differences but all ADSL had a cease charge at one time.

It may be that a line provisioned some years back is under 'old' rules and recent provisions are not .

But I think UTV always charged €30 for a cease and this has not changed , it has been part of their standard T&Cs since the very beginning unless I am mistaken . The cease charge is now by CARRIER not by LINE if that is any help .

http://www.eircomwholesale.ie/dynamic/pdf/adslbitstreamPD_v25.pdf

6. Terms and Conditions
When purchasing eircom's ADSL/ADSL2plus Bitstream Service, Access
Seekers may select one of two contract options: a minimum term per
Bitstream port or no minimum term but a cease fee per Bitstream port. Both
contract options for the Bitstream Service are published on the website at
www.eircomwholesale.ie.
Access Seekers must choose to sign one of these contracts only, and all
Bitstream ports purchased by the Access Seeker will be subject to the same
Terms and Conditions.

Xcellor

I was under the belief that the other ISPs factor this charge into the amount you pay per month so that when you leave (after 12 months) you have already paid the 30 euro... U.TV don't charge you this each month and will only charge you if youl leave the service.

I suppose this is why U.TV was cheaper than other bitstream resellers...

I maybe wrong though.

Cabaal

Xcellor wrote: »

I suppose this is why U.TV was cheaper than other bitstream resellers...

I maybe wrong though.

Thing is they are not, thats part of the reason why I'm moving

dub45

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Not au fait with the differences but all ADSL had a cease charge at one time.

It may be that a line provisioned some years back is under 'old' rules and recent provisions are not .

But I think UTV always charged €30 for a cease and this has not changed , it has been part of their standard T&Cs since the very beginning unless I am mistaken . The cease charge is now by CARRIER not by LINE if that is any help .

http://www.eircomwholesale.ie/dynamic/pdf/adslbitstreamPD_v25.pdf

If you check back I dont think this is the case at all. It dates from when they ceased being an innovative isp and when into what I called their ''cute hoorism' stage - when they started requiring customers to enter into new 12 month contracts to get the benefits of new products (such as speed increases) that Eircom were introducing for all isps. AFAIK they were the only ones who had this requirement.

When I left them for Smart some years ago I did not have to pay this ransom to be released. If you check older Terms and Conditions this charge should not be there.

Cabaal

dub45 wrote: »

If you check back I dont think this is the case at all. It dates from when they ceased being an innovative isp and when into what I called their ''cute hoorism' stage - when they started requiring customers to enter into new 12 month contracts to get the benefits of new products (such as speed increases) that Eircom were introducing for all isps. AFAIK they were the only ones who had this requirement.

When I left them for Smart some years ago I did not have to pay this ransom to be released. If you check older Terms and Conditions this charge should not be there.

Interesting,
Thing is the minimum period that the Eircom Wholesale doc refers to is it the case that other ISP's ala Vodafone commit to this so when its up they don't pay the fee or is it simply that they absorb the charge?

What makes UTV pass this on to the end user if its the case that its charged regardless?

[EDIT] Looks like an ISP requesting services from Eircom wholesale have the option of a min term in the form of 6 months per port

“Minimum Term" means the minimum period during which the Access
Seeker commits to keep and pay for a New Product Order on a Bitstream Port.
This period shall commence on the date eircom starts billing for that Product on
a Bitstream Port and shall continue for six months thereafter.

http://www.eircomwholesale.ie/dynamic/pdf/V1.0%20BARO%20MT%20.pdf

Perhaps I'm picking this up all wrong but this suggests based on the info from the other doc that if UTV choose this min term they are not charged the cancel fee once the term is up? It looks like perhaps they didn't go with so a min term and thats why the fee is being applied?

dub45

Was this charge definitely in the T&C's you signed as distinct from the ones now in force?

Cabaal

dub45 wrote: »

Was this charge definitely in the T&C's you signed as distinct from the ones now in force?

I'll have to look into it further to be 100% certain,

If it was fair enough but I'm still curious as to how this charge comes about and why they are the only ISP to pass it along to the EU

babaloushka

When I originally joined UTV, there was no charge - can't remember how long ago that was - but I DO remember looking at the new terms and querying them when I upgraded my contract. I did this at a time when new subscribers were benefiting from a reduced charge per month for exactly the same as what I had. I think it amounted to about 5-6 euros each month. I definitely remember having to send them an email to accept the new terms and conditions in order to get the saving
I agree that this charge is 'cute hoorism' at its best. However, I'm largely satisfied (for the moment) with UTV service and I'm not sure what gains I could make with any other provider, especially factoring in the €30. I'd be very interested to see it challenged, though ...

dub45

As my one remaining loyal reader will know by now T&C's are one of my (many) obsessions. Rather than being a short list of readable paragraphs they have now been expanded into what is mainly a list of obligations for the customer. Unfortunately rather than being an agreement between equals they are perceived by some companies as duties for their subjects (previously known as customers) Anyone remember when the customer was 'king'?

They are long on obligations for the customer and short usually very short on obligations for the company - for example UPC as I have mentioned before have 22 pages of Terms and Conditions as well as 19 sections of a fair user policy which are counted as being part of the Terms and Conditions.

Now in those 22 pages what are UPC's obligations? Zilch! yes exactly Zilch

2.2 In supplying the Services we will always use our reasonable skill and care but are
unable to guarantee fault free performance. The Services are provided on a best efforts
basis and we do not warrant that any connection to, transmission over, or results of the
Equipment or the Services will meet your requirements or will provide uninterrupted use
or will operate as required or at any minimum speed, or error free. We can not
guarantee minimum bandwidth delivered to you and we can not guarantee that all data
traffic can be transported complete and without delay. If a fault occurs you should notify
us by contacting our customer management centre. If you are unable to access the
Services, you remain liable to pay all Charges that would otherwise apply.

Now if you rang up and said you wanted a clause put in that payment would be made on a best effort basis and that even if you were unable to pay for the service UPC should still supply it I don't think that you would get very far.

The fact is that isps can and do put in anything they like into Terms and Conditions and there is no one to stop them at all. For example UPC have all sorts of unspecified potential charges in their Terms and Conditons which are supposedly listed in a 'Price List' somewhere except that they are not!

So UTV could have a termination fee in the T&C's of whatever they like and there is no one to say boo to them! Consumer protection indeed!

For example are these paragraphs not contradictory?

Section 2: Modification of User Policy
UPC retains the right to amend, modify or substitute this User Policy at any time and we will notify you in writing 30 days in advance of doing so if the modification, amendment or substitution constitutes a material change to the Terms and Conditions of the Services. Any such modification, amendment or substitution shall also be posted on our website at www.upc.ie

You should check this User Policy regularly as we may change it to take on board new issues that may arise in connection with your use of the Services or the way we provide the Services. The most up to date version of the User Policy will apply to your use of the Services, even if you have not read the updated version.

I also have very serious reservations about this paragraph:

We may, subject to the relevant legal and regulatory provisions, whilst you are a
customer and for as long as necessary for the specified purposes after you terminate
purchasing Services, use your personal information together with other information for
the purposes of administration, credit scoring, customer services, training, marketing,
tracking use of our services (including processing call, usage, billing, viewing and
interactive data), profiling your usage and purchasing preferences and providing you
with services,. We may disclose your personal information to UPC or any Group
Company and our sub-contractors and agents for these purposes.