Judo-BJJ

subvictory

I've heard this phrase quite a few times now:

"Judo and BJJ are 2 sides of the same coin"

While I can see the argument, it seems that the traffic is a little one sided.
An average Judo black belt could expect to be competitive with a BJJ blue belt under BJJ rules and would make much quicker progress in the art than someone starting from scratch (everything else being equal). However the reverse of this, A BJJ blue belt being competitive with a Judo black belt under Judo rules, would not be the case. Nor would you expect the BJJ'er to make significantly quicker progress.
There are numerous examples of Judoka with excellent ground work who have never studied BJJ, again the reverse is rare.
Would it be fairer to say that BJJ is simply a highly specialised form of Judo that has limited cross over to the parent arts competitive rule set?

cowzerp

subvictory wrote: »

I've heard this phrase quite a few times now:

"Judo and BJJ are 2 sides of the same coin"

While I can see the argument, it seems that the traffic is a little one sided.
An average Judo black belt could expect to be competitive with a BJJ blue belt under BJJ rules and would make much quicker progress in the art than someone starting from scratch (everything else being equal). However the reverse of this, A BJJ blue belt being competitive with a Judo black belt under Judo rules, would not be the case. Nor would you expect the BJJ'er to make significantly quicker progress.
There are numerous examples of Judoka with excellent ground work who have never studied BJJ, again the reverse is rare.
Would it be fairer to say that BJJ is simply a highly specialised form of Judo that has limited cross over to the parent arts competitive rule set?

The reverse of this would be a balck belt in jitz v a blue belt in judo, easy win for bjj lad.

Your using the lower graded v the higher grade against bjj in both examples.

subvictory

cowzerp wrote: »

The reverse of this would be a balck belt in jitz v a blue belt in judo, easy win for bjj lad.

Your using the lower graded v the higher grade against bjj in both examples.

Good point, but doesn't really address the spirit of the argument, which is the crossover of applicable skills between the 2 arts being more one sided. A Judoka will generally have a lot more transferable skills than a BJJ guy will have (given the competitive rulesets).
A modern BJJ blackbelt will generally have cross trained in Judo (or wrestling or both) Judo black belts cross training in BJJ is much rarer.

Nothingcompares

I'm equally versed in Judo and BJJ and have spoken about the subject a lot on this forum. I think it's relevant that you make the comparison between Judo Black Belts and BJJ Blue Belts. I think broadly speaking, a judo black belt is probably equivalent in relative skill to a good blue belt. I'm not saying a judo black belt and a bjj blue belt should be equally good at judo and bjj, but what I mean is, a judo black belt should be able to comfortably beat beginners and novices with skill and technique quite comfortably. A bjj blue belt should do the same. A good, competitive judo black belt would be equivalent to a bjj purple belt and above.

It's worth noting that for some Judo people, the sport and martial art is 50% ground and 50% standing. That's the way I was always taught (and continue to train). For others, it's 90% standing and 10% stalling on the ground.

For the majority of BJJ practioneers in my experience it's 90% ground and 10% stand up. For some it's 90% ground and 10% pulling guard. It's worth noting that a typical high level BJJ player or a bjj purist wouldn't be overly concerned with being judo thrown. While this is judo terms is a bit deal (ippon) it's merely a disadvantage to a jitz player.

Usually, the jitz players who are interested in stand up are MMA players or competitive competition players who want the edge in the stand up.

subvictory

Nothingcompares wrote: »

I'm equally versed in Judo and BJJ and have spoken about the subject a lot on this forum. I think it's relevant that you make the comparison between Judo Black Belts and BJJ Blue Belts. I think broadly speaking, a judo black belt is probably equivalent in relative skill to a good blue belt. I'm not saying a judo black belt and a bjj blue belt should be equally good at judo and bjj, but what I mean is, a judo black belt should be able to comfortably beat beginners and novices with skill and technique quite comfortably. A bjj blue belt should do the same. A good, competitive judo black belt would be equivalent to a bjj purple belt and above.

It's worth noting that for some Judo people, the sport and martial art is 50% ground and 50% standing. That's the way I was always taught (and continue to train). For others, it's 90% standing and 10% stalling on the ground.

For the majority of BJJ practioneers in my experience it's 90% ground and 10% stand up. For some it's 90% ground and 10% pulling guard. It's worth noting that a typical high level BJJ player or a bjj purist wouldn't be overly concerned with being judo thrown. While this is judo terms is a bit deal (ippon) it's merely a disadvantage to a jitz player.

Usually, the jitz players who are interested in stand up are MMA players or competitive competition players who want the edge in the stand up.

When your talking about Judo training your talking about drilling and sparing 50% ground 50% standing (or 90/10).
In BJJ it would generally be 90% ground 10% standing while drilling, 99% ground 1% standing, when actually sparing. (Obviously excluding clubs that cross train the 2 arts)

I think even a "90/10" Judo black belt would progress far quicker up the BJJ ranks than would a BJJ blue/Purple belt up the Judo ranks. This leads me to think that they're not "2 sides of the same coin" but that BJJ is just a very specialised form of one aspect of Judo.

Nothingcompares

And I can equally say without rebuttal that Judo is merely a high specialised form of wrestling.

cowzerp

subvictory wrote: »

This leads me to think that they're not "2 sides of the same coin" but that BJJ is just a very specialised form of one aspect of Judo.

2 sides of the same coin does not mean there the same it means there similar, both are specialists of 1 part of the same thing with BJJ been specialist on the ground and Judo been specialists of the stand up and specifically throws, when put together at high level you have a complete player in both.

Im pretty sure that 1 of the Gracies trains the British judo team, i might be wrong!

Campbell M

I think it is fair to compare a BJJ blue belt to a Judo black belt purely on the time it takes to get one. Normally a black belt takes between two and three years in Judo and this is true for a blue in BJJ (it can be quicker but on average).

Also, a black in BJJ indicates a total mastery of the sport where this is not true of a black in Judo which just indicates that you are a competitive judoka. Ask any judo black if they think they have mastered judo.

I am a bjj blue who recently started Judo and while my ground skills are very good compared to anyone under black most of the black belts and above are very competitive on the ground and my standup skills (throws, sweeps, etc) are very poor in comparison

cletus

I've only ever rolled with one judoka, I was white belt bjj at the time, he was brown belt judo. While he took me down with relative ease, I controlled the ground game. What I did notice, however, was how much strength he used on the ground. Is this common in ne waza (thats the right term isn't it?)

platinum76

imo its rare enough to reach black belt standard in less than two to three years. judo is predominantly a stand up game as the competition rules are leaning towards that ie, allowing less time on the ground.

most clubs therefore seem to focus alot more on standup than the ground game (70:30 about). whereas the opposite is true for bjj. i would agree that a good bjj blue belt is competitive with a judo black belt on the ground but not with stand up.

I think a good bjj guy would pick up judo much better than the new person as his mind is already focused on balance, posture etc from the bjj. The judo guy has the obvious advantage in picking up the bjj ground game as he has already a background in ground work.

I play both judo and bjj. imo the ground game in bjj is taught more technical than in judo, maybe because of reliance on hold downs in judo and the fact that bjj is predominantly ground based.

Doug Cartel

cletus wrote: »

I've only ever rolled with one judoka, I was white belt bjj at the time, he was brown belt judo. While he took me down with relative ease, I controlled the ground game. What I did notice, however, was how much strength he used on the ground. Is this common in ne waza (thats the right term isn't it?)

I think so. In BJJ they like to play a more technical game, only using strength when needed. In judo it's more balls-to the wall, as you usually only have a few moments to make something happen. I'm a Judo guy, and I've found that at BJJ sparring sessions, I might get a few taps at the start, but pretty soon I'm way more gassed than everyone else, and then I get completely taken apart.

subvictory

cowzerp wrote: »

2 sides of the same coin does not mean there the same it means there similar, both are specialists of 1 part of the same thing with BJJ been specialist on the ground and Judo been specialists of the stand up and specifically throws, when put together at high level you have a complete player in both.

Im pretty sure that 1 of the Gracies trains the British judo team, i might be wrong!

I would take "2 sides of the same coin" as meaning equal but opposite styles of the same core art. This doesn't seem to be the case in practice. Judo encompasses, to varying degrees, both sides of the coin. BJJ professes to do the same but in reality wholly embraces one side over the other. A Judo guy can be competitive at a reasonably high level and practice a complete martial art without crosstraining. A BJJ guy cannot.

Killme00

In terms of sport, both start on the feet but BJJ continues on the ground after Judo has stopped and this would have a huge effect on the way throws are performed.

As for belt crossover between the two i think that is more of a personal thing with how one would approach training ie one Judo black belt might be more naturally suited to BJJ than another or simply might like it more/train harder. The same is true for a BJJ guy learning Judo.

Gorman

I being doing BJJ for around 4.5 years fairly regularly. In that last 6 months i've started judo once or twice a week. Judo is a lot of fun BTW.

here is what I think so far

1) Judo is a lot more difficult to learn, it takes a lot more drilling to get any movement or timing down. Beginners will get a faster "return" from BJJ. So for must people it seems like a better art/sport. However what easy for you to learn will probably be easy for others to learn too.
2) Judo requires a lot better conditioning, it's a very tough sport.
3) forget about belts - there's a huge huge difference between a hobbyist judoka and a judoka who competes. For all the BJJ blues who think tapping a judo BB means something, if you get a chance visit a well know judo school on UK, France or Ned, you won't be doing so well. And remeber if it was at a bjj class you probably started form you knees, it gonna be hard to take a judo guy down.
4) Look a all the great BJJ'er who also have a BB in judo or trained specifically in judo schools:

a lot of gracies, Roger, Riskson, Rolls, Royce
Jacarce
Mario Sperry
silvo behring
Wallid ...


and there are lots more and for a very good reason, most bjj schools don't teach great standup and don't have good training partners for the feet, just l ike most judo schools don't excel in ground work.

Both sports encourage bas habits, turtling in Judo and gaurdpulling,buttflopping in BJJ.

I am now of the opinion that to be a true BJJer or Judoka you should train both, the rules of both sports have made each art too one sided.

Ask yourself how would the father of BJJ Mitsuo Maeda trained? lots of throws and lots of newaza!

JohnMc1

subvictory wrote: »

Good point, but doesn't really address the spirit of the argument, which is the crossover of applicable skills between the 2 arts being more one sided. A Judoka will generally have a lot more transferable skills than a BJJ guy will have (given the competitive rulesets).
A modern BJJ blackbelt will generally have cross trained in Judo (or wrestling or both) Judo black belts cross training in BJJ is much rarer.

Don't forget that most Judokas are training for the Olympics. That's their complete focus. Cross training in BJJ is taking time away from training for their actual goal.

subvictory

JohnMc1 wrote: »

Don't forget that most Judokas are training for the Olympics. That's their complete focus. Cross training in BJJ is taking time away from training for their actual goal.

I'd say fewer than 1% of Judokas are "training for the Olympics"

Judomad

Campbell M wrote: »

I think it is fair to compare a BJJ blue belt to a Judo black belt purely on the time it takes to get one. Normally a black belt takes between two and three years in Judo and this is true for a blue in BJJ (it can be quicker but on average).
Also, a black in BJJ indicates a total mastery of the sport where this is not true of a black in Judo which just indicates that you are a competitive judoka. Ask any judo black if they think they have mastered judo.

I am a bjj blue who recently started Judo and while my ground skills are very good compared to anyone under black most of the black belts and above are very competitive on the ground and my standup skills (throws, sweeps, etc) are very poor in comparison

Are you saying that with a straight face????? seriously miscalculated, and im coming from a competitive 16year judo background of fighting internationally and nationally...2-3 years(and maybe less) as you say is 1million % bull my friend!!

Campbell M

Judomad wrote: »

Are you saying that with a straight face????? seriously miscalculated, and im coming from a competitive 16year judo background of fighting internationally and nationally...2-3 years(and maybe less) as you say is 1million % bull my friend!!

I am perfectly happy to admit that my Judo knowledge is less than yours and I am only going on what i have been told by other people (I have only recently started and am only a green belt).

How long does it take then in your opinion on average to get a black belt in Judo?

Judomad

Campbell M wrote: »

I am perfectly happy to admit that my Judo knowledge is less than yours and I am only going on what i have been told by other people (I have only recently started and am only a green belt).

How long does it take then in your opinion on average to get a black belt in Judo?

It depends really, you have to fight for your belts, its not like other MA'a where you pay to do a grading where you swan about doing patterns and get a belt..obviously a talented fighter will win more fights than a less talented fighter, you must fight at the national dan gradings from Senior blue belt and upwards, so for any person looking to get there blue, brown or black belt will compete for them in open weighted tournaments against other at the same grade also looking to get there belts..so therefore you can get a limited talented 60kg blue belt fighting a highly talented 120kg blue belt, or vice versa...i felt the wrath of this as im a 66kg fighter......but from blue to black it took me roughly 18months to 2years, but i was competing internationally and the likes so others i was fighting wernt as competition experienced as me possibly, it can vary from white to black from 5 years to 50years depending on your standard.....but there is NO WAY IN HELL yur getting a black belt in judo in 2 or 3 years......

nobbo

There is someone on here that got their black in just over 4 years...

Campbell M

18 months to 2 years is about what i expected from blue to black.

How long does it take to get to Blue on average?

I will be going for blue at my next grading (think it is in march) and i started in June so that is less than a year. that is why i figured 3 years was a fair estimate.

I had to fight at a national grading for all grades not just from blue and up (I am in NI). If i could get a belt by "swanning about" I wouldn't want it. That is one of the reasons I like Judo so much. You cant fake it.

Anyway, I am off to Judo!

Pingu

Judomad wrote: »

...but there is NO WAY IN HELL yur getting a black belt in judo in 2 or 3 years......

Sorry there, but you're mistaken. One of the lads in my club got his in 2.

I took 4 and a half, only got serious the last two though.

Reading back over your posts, you're really not helping the image of Judo by being so rude and attempting to talk down to people! Seems more you''re just trying to talk yourself up. Get over it tbh.

lukeyjudo

You can definitly get a black belt in judo in two years if your big and strong enough, or good enough.

Depends how hard and often you train. Three years of good hard judo three times a week would make you a formidable judo bb.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Black Belt in two years, yes it can be done of course and I've seen a few.

But mostly its East European (ex-soviet block) with a strong background in Sambo.

Other than that there will always be the exception, but its the tiny minority who make it to BB or even brown in two years. This will happen in every sport, except BJJ where you'll most likely get your grey hair before getting your BB :P

I think the majority of people training in most style will tip away at it as a hobby for the first few years until hitting the middle kyu's, then its either up your game and break some sweat & blood, or jack it in because it wasn't in you to put in the harder work.

Personally speaking that was the case with me, I turned up for training and went through the motions for about six years. Because of the rostered style of my work I miss a lot of gradings, but I didn't feel under any presure because I still enjoyed my Judo and continue to do so - now more than ever.

So thats about it, in my opinion it can be done. But its a talented minority who'll do it - I'm not talented

spookykev

Black belt in 2 years?

I got my green belt in 1 year.
My blue about 4.5 years later.
My brown about 6 months later.

That was 3 years ago.

My grading book says I've been doing judo 9 years, still a brown belt must be a slow learner

TBH I was too busy training for the olympics to be doing gradings